The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 3, 2018, 04:24 PM   #51
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 4,530
Quote:
My goodness, I've never seen such a bunch of guys so hung up on semantics.
There in lies the issue right . Except it's not so much guys as it is a person . The guys are pretty much saying the same thing just in many different ways . While one person elected him self the tyrannical speech lord and insist on compelled speech regardless if "our" society as a whole has chosen and excepts different words to use .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old December 3, 2018, 04:27 PM   #52
rox
Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2012
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20 View Post
CHSD is good acronym. It can be any point (ala my custom made tool) and then moving shoulder back (which I know I am not allowed to do but I have run with scissors, spit in the wind, tried to fight city hall etc)
LOL

I guess we have COAL, CBTO, so why not continue the theme with CHSD.

Actually, it's no good. The 'CH' could be confused with 'Case H**dsp*ce'!

..
rox is offline  
Old December 3, 2018, 06:38 PM   #53
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,306
I predict it doesn't matter what we decide we are a half a dozen or so regulars on a internet forum. Reloaders all over the world will still be bumping the shoulder and measuring the shoulder with a comparitor and calling it headspace. They will then shoot those cartridges not giving a rats rectum what we call it on this forum

My life got a lot calmer when I decided to ignore jackasses and cable news....but I repeat myself. Doc may be taking me off BP meds soon if I stick to it
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old December 3, 2018, 06:44 PM   #54
sako2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2009
Posts: 297
Lets just call it shoulder space. LOL
sako2 is offline  
Old December 3, 2018, 07:25 PM   #55
Dufus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,657
It might be a hard and bitter pill to swallow, but when it comes down to the nut cuttin', Mr Guffey is correct in everything he says.

Now, go ahead and take a vote and kick me out.
Dufus is offline  
Old December 3, 2018, 07:51 PM   #56
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,306
correct in what context? 1913 US Army Armorer school manual lingo ? I can call something a half inch or .50 inches and be saying the same thing or say plane and be talking about at least three entirely different concepts of thought depending on the context. If you are talking to a roughneck or a doctor or a sailor or a gunsmith or a psychiatrist referring to the "head" will mean different things
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

Last edited by hounddawg; December 3, 2018 at 07:57 PM.
hounddawg is offline  
Old December 3, 2018, 08:09 PM   #57
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 4,530
Just because he's correct doesn't make him right in what he's doing . He does not say "I'm going to use the "correct" term and I'll respect you and your term" . He says I'm right and everyone else is wrong , literally . How many times have we all read "I'm the only one" when that is simply not true period .

Correction : He is the only one derailing threads for no appreciable reason .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old December 3, 2018, 11:49 PM   #58
Dufus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,657
Quote:
If you are talking to a roughneck or a doctor or a sailor or a gunsmith or a psychiatrist referring to the "head" will mean different things
That is the English language. For someone that does not know it, it is one of the most difficult to learn.

As far as in what context, I know of only one context in regard to handloading or firearms related stuff.

Look at me for instance: the only recipes I have are for buttermilk pancakes, sausage, butter beans, and so on.

I have tons of load data that all started in the late 60s when I started making notebooks with all the different loads that I developed for my firearms.

In this thread, the OP asked about "bumping" shoulders. No one bumps shoulders, they form new shoulders.
Dufus is offline  
Old December 4, 2018, 12:23 AM   #59
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,306
Quote:
No one bumps shoulders, they form new shoulders.
guess they need to rename shoulder bump dies to shoulder forming dies then

Quote:
The Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Die brings you an advanced precision level by allowing you to precisely control the amount of neck sizing tension in your reloaded cartridge brass. This die improves accuracy and prolongs case life because the neck is sized down as little as necessary while still “bumping” the shoulder of the case to maintain overall case concentricity.
https://www.forsterproducts.com/prod...t-sizing-dies/

exaggerated formatting supplied by moi

seriously I am looking at Tony Boyers book Rifle Accuarcy book right now page 114 where is discussing setting the shoulder back with a shoulder bump die. That's all the verification I need to use the term. Who am I supposed top believe, one of the top precision shooters and reloaders of all time or some random guy on a forum.....not exactly a hard decision there
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old December 4, 2018, 11:02 AM   #60
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,783
Quote:
It might be a hard and bitter pill to swallow, but when it comes down to the nut cuttin', Mr Guffey is correct in everything he says.
Thank you, and that was their biggest fear; I have never asked them what they were afraid of. It has always been about more than being too lazy to remove their hands from the keyboard.

I have little respect for those that have grown up without learning to keep their hands to themselves.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old December 4, 2018, 11:51 AM   #61
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,306
am I the only reloader that bumps shoulders...noooooo everyone is doing the bump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=LgnuNk2-YF4


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...uch-is-enough/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...shoulder-bump/

https://www.sinclairintl.com/guntech....htm?lid=16134

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...prod35265.aspx

http://panhandleprecision.com/sincla...-body-inserts/

http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...-Shoulder-Bump
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old December 4, 2018, 12:52 PM   #62
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,747
Forster is who Mr. Guffey called to get the operating details from, so he is aware of Forster's name.

My own experience with the bump concept is very limited. I read about it in Precision Shooting in the '90s where there were a couple of advertisers selling die blanks. IIRC, the rifle builder was to drill and ream the blank to create a body die using the same reamer he chambered the rifle with, and then send it back to the vendor to be put through gas nitriding to harden the surface. I don't recall if that service included polishing. The die reaming would be done to a length that would bring shoulders back about -0.001". The neck would, of course, have to be sized separately. This way the die would support the case while the shoulder was extruded back, but not narrow it any further.

That kind of die would be married to the barrel and any others chambered with that same reamer to the exact same chamber length until the reamer dulled enough to be making the chambers smaller. If I am correct that I have described a bump die true to the original concept, then no mass-produced die can get there accurately. I'd have to speak to Forster myself, but I suspect their version, from Mr. Guffey's description, just adds a neck sizing bushing to a body sizing die that just doesn't resize as much as a standard FL die does. Maybe it's made to match SAAMI minimum chamber diameters. But I am just speculating here, as I haven't spoken with them about it myself.

The headspace terminology debate got twisted to motive and character assertions that are unfounded and violate Rule 3. of the forum rules. I will go ahead with the headspace post because not all is as it appears. Despite claims I am one of only two terminology-Nazi's on the board (and if you think there are only two candidates for that title, watch how quickly any number of members jump to correct a newbie who refers to a detachable magazine as a "clip"), examination of my past posts will reveal that I did, myself, use Case Headspace and Cartridge Headspace at one time, defending their legitimacy based on the same assertion by others that everyone knew what I meant by it. But I gradually ceased to be sanguine about that. Here's a recent article illustrating why. It defines Cartridge Headspace as a synonym for Chamber Headspace, as in, the headspace the cartridge fits into. I don't know that we'll actually see a newbie mistakenly buy a headspace gauge instead of a case gauge because of term confusion, as I suggested earlier, but stranger things have happened. Anyway, I am as tired of this boorish thread hijack as everyone else, and want to move the contributions on the matter elsewhere, so I'll get the thread up.

Maybe instead of a headspace sticky I should just put something up called Terminology Rumble and everyone can get it all out of their systems there.


Rox,

You are correct that it takes very little turning to get a die adjustment in thousandths. The reason press instructions recommend an added fraction of a turn is to compress the shell holder against the die harder than is strictly necessary. It makes the instructions simple and it ensures a person sizing mixed cases won't have a reluctant one open a gap between the die and shell holder. Redding's Competition Shell Holder sets are made to allow that extra force to be employed even when you are not seating to true full length. But if you keep your cases segregated by lot and load history, you don't have to use it. Just setting the die to the right height works reasonably well, though a little variation still occurs.

I once suggested to Redding that they change the knurl on their lock rings from a diamond pattern to 71 or 72 straight grooves around the perimeter so the grooves could be used to count thousandths of change in die position using a reference mark. I even found the right metric knurl to make the circumference come out right at the current diameter, but, alas, no love.


Dufus,

You are correct. Mr. Guffey points to resizing being an extrusion operation the same as case forming is, but smaller in resulting change. Maybe I should add registration spots to my exaggerated resizing illustration to show the movement of brass. Resizing cannot push brass that has thinned at the expansion ring back into place because it is thicker there than it is higher up on the case wall. So the resizing die comes down and moves the top end of the case wall into the bottom end of the shoulder and the top end of the shoulder into the neck. That's how necks grow to require re-trimming. The shoulder then has lost a little of its original brass to the neck and gained some from the case walls and is no longer the exact same piece of metal.

He is also correct that firing a cartridge in too much headspace presents little or no hazard. If it did, the Ackley Improved chambers could not fireform their parent cartridges directly. I was at the range once when a fellow came up to me with a .308 case that had just a slight rounding where the shoulder and neck had been, terminating in a hole where the mouth was. He had fired it in a 30-06 chamber. The bullet hit low, but otherwise, all was well. A .308's wider shoulder would not fit in a minimum 30-06 chamber if that shoulder was at SAAMI maximum dimension, but you seldom see either chambers or cases made at the minimum and maximum, so it fit. What about headspace during this event? The extractor hook kept the case from running away from the firing pin. It's not easy on the extractor hook, but they will usually do that without breaking.

As to the firing pin pushing the cases forward, it depends on the cartridge. We know cases in chambers with excess headspace do go forward before the pressure gets too high because firing thins them at the pressure ring. If the case stayed to the rear, instead of thinning at the pressure ring, the shoulder would blow forward just like fireforming an Ackley improved parent case does. There is more than enough energy in the primer to back it out to act like a little piston helping push the cartridge forward, as well as there being enough momentum in the firing pin to do that. But with military ammo, the primers are crimped and can't back out, so that mechanism is eliminated from consideration for them. Military ammo still thins at the pressure ring, even when fired in an '03, which doesn't push the case against the headspace stop with the nose of an extractor claw. Again, we know the case goes forward because military brass also stretches at the pressure ring. I don't have any sense of how much the cartridge might bounce off the end of a chamber when a semi-auto extractor claw shoves it in and then snaps over the rim. Always something new to explore, I find.

Anyway, I've said more than enough and I think others have, too, and with all the violations of rule three regarding assertions and attributions about members characters and motives, I think it's time to shut it down and let people wait for the sticky.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.06993 seconds with 10 queries