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Old November 26, 2018, 08:15 PM   #1
oley55
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?? after neck turning

been playing with my new K&M neck turner on some twice fired LC (14) 7.62 brass which went fairly well. Then I sized with a Forster Neck Bushing die. As I expected brass with a .002” runout now ranges all over the place with the worst being .006”.

So now what are my options? will loading and firing straighten them out, or do I need to full length size them in a fixed die and deal with the expander ball reintroducing some runout, since I do not yet have a mandrel expander die.
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Old November 26, 2018, 08:49 PM   #2
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It will straighten out upon firing, but you could also expand it with an oversized turning mandrel and then FL resize it. Sinclair makes the mandrels and a die body for holding them.
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Old November 27, 2018, 07:34 PM   #3
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So now what are my options? will loading and firing straighten them out, or do I need to full length size them in a fixed die and deal with the expander ball reintroducing some runout, since I do not yet have a mandrel expander die.
You could try the M die (unless Unclenick disagrees) - that gets you away from that expander ball yank.

I do lube the case mouths with a non powder issue type and tumble them. I have no residue in them when done other than the carbon that is there anyway.
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Old November 27, 2018, 08:42 PM   #4
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In 1,000 yard F Class Competition, we used the Redding body die and a bushing die without an expander ball.

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Old November 27, 2018, 08:54 PM   #5
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Yes, the M-die does enter the case the same way as the mandrel I mentioned. It may help. The difference is, the right mandrel diameter can make the the whole neck the width of the step the M-die makes so the whole neck would get some resizing. However, it might not be enough. Another possibility would be to run either a mandrel or the M-die or even the mandrel of a Lee collect die into the neck and just bend it until it reads straight on a case runout gauge like the Sinclair.
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Old November 27, 2018, 10:33 PM   #6
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I would just use some cheap bullets and fire form them with some plinking practice but then I am a lazy old dawg that likes to make smoke and noise
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Old November 28, 2018, 07:41 AM   #7
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Got one question. K&M turning mandrel, you can't expand necks with it, you buy expander mandrel and that one is over bullet dia to fit turning mandrel. I got K&M turner in 30 cal that I use. You shouldn't have to use expander after necks are turned and use correct bushing size. You can. If you didn't get K&M expander for the turner you want to check 4/5 spot around neck make sure same thickness with good ball mike. If you did get that expander you could use that then bushing then fireform check runout. If you have K&M expander/die you can order from them .001"/.002" under bullet or any size you want.
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Old November 28, 2018, 10:01 AM   #8
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Quote:
?? after neck turning

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

been playing with my new K&M neck turner on some twice fired LC (14) 7.62 brass which went fairly well. Then I sized with a Forster Neck Bushing die. As I expected brass with a .002” runout now ranges all over the place with the worst being .006”.
Ever day I am told everyone knows what the other is talking about and or meant. Well I proudly announce I don.t. You turned the neck because the neck was too tight in the chamber? Or you turned the neck because the brass was thicker on one side of the neck than the other?

A friend that built bench rester type rifles called to inform me he had an unhappy customer. He said the unhappy customer was complain about loose necks as in the diameter of the neck after firing.

First I had to ask about accuracy; did he complain about accuracy? My old friend said it had nothing to do with accuracy, the complaint was about the chamber neck. And then I had to ask; which rifle?

The rifle was one of his 308W chambered rifles. I knew it was not necessary to bore him with 'the fix' as in moving the barrel back and cutting the chamber so I agreed to bring dies for forming and sizing.

We sorted through thousands upon thousands of cases, it was not necessary to sort and separate head stamps. I settled on LC MATCH 30/06 cases, I formed them to 308 W with .002" clearance between the shoulder of the chamber and the shoulder of the case. When finished and without turning the outside of the neck and or reaming the inside of the neck I reduce the clearance between the neck in the chamber and the outside of the case neck .005". That gave him .002" clearance.

And 'no', reducing the clearance between the case neck and neck in the chamber did not improve accuracy. And my old friend wanted to know why, after all of these years, no one had ever complained about the clearance on the neck; I suggested he sold the rifle to an Internet reloader.

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Old November 28, 2018, 11:08 AM   #9
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oldroper, Got one question. K&M turning mandrel, you can't expand necks with it, you buy expander mandrel and that one is over bullet dia to fit turning mandrel. I got K&M turner in 30 cal that I use. You shouldn't have to use expander after necks are turned and use correct bushing size. You can. If you didn't get K&M expander for the turner you want to check 4/5 spot around neck make sure same thickness with good ball mike. If you did get that expander you could use that then bushing then fireform check runout. If you have K&M expander/die you can order from them .001"/.002" under bullet or any size you want.
Great observation. I did not realize I needed the K&M mandrel and as I said in "playing around" they were a few odd year LC (14) fire formed brass as a learning process. (Amazing the differences in LC brass from year to year. I have about #150 LC 11s which just seem superior and more consistent than these 14s.)

Wish I had known about the K&M size specific mandrel requirement before buying (or the info provided on Midway is misleading, but Norton will not let me access the K&M site directly for some threat issue??). In retrospect with additional monies to be spent, I wish I had gone with the Sinclair neck turner and their Gen II Expander Dies/mandrels since they can also be used for other neck sizing purposes. At any rate I ordered the required K&M components last night.
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Old November 28, 2018, 11:23 AM   #10
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F. Guffy,
Quote:
You turned the neck because the neck was too tight in the chamber? Or you turned the neck because the brass was thicker on one side of the neck than the other?
I was turning the necks as little as possible to get to a point of equal neck wall thickness, which seems to be .0015". Had a couple that had a thin side below that and I set them aside. But then my neck turning is not as consistent as I would like since the fired brass was a little loose on the neck turner pilot.

So once I get the K&M mandrel, I guess I'll need to neck size then expand with the mandrel so I can turn, and then neck size again. I feel like I will be working the heck out of these necks before I get to firing and analyzing results.
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Old November 28, 2018, 03:50 PM   #11
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I never got into neck turning , I full length size with the expander ball . I'm sizing just like everyone else and my runout is .001 on the average . Could it be , when I needed a barrel change I had my rifle completely blueprinted , if your bolt face isn't true to your chamber wouldn't that cause runout problems
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Old November 28, 2018, 04:44 PM   #12
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CW308,

fire formed brass is .0011-.0016", but neck walls on this LC14 brass varies .0145-.0175". So when I turned the necks that wall variation gets transferred to the outside as runout.
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Old November 28, 2018, 05:09 PM   #13
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oley55,

You're wasting your time if you're looking to create precision loads using neck turned Lake City brass. I took some M72 (Lake City Match .30-06), neck turned it, sorted it by weight, and generally match prepped it every way possible. It was easily outshot by out of the box Lapua brass. Just saying.

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Old November 28, 2018, 05:36 PM   #14
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USSR,

you are undoubtedly correct, but sometimes you just gotta try. Besides, I have way more time than money.

There is zero chance this LC (14) brass will ever get me where I am trying to go, but the LC (11) brass I have is much more consistent in regards to neck walls and unprocessed case lengths.

Since sorting cases by weight on a balance scale is so tedious and even beyond my OCD compulsions, I am ignoring case weights.
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Old November 28, 2018, 06:01 PM   #15
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I do see a variation in neck thickness but I check my runout 1/8" above the case on the bullet . If I were having a problem with groupings I would try everything , I haven't used heaten or neck turned , my chamber is a tactical match , I'm guessing it has more wiggle room then a Match chamber . Match chambers are tighter and I can see neck turning would be a plus . I'm shooting 1/2" groups on the average with 3 ten shot groups . I don't think I can do any better , stopped driving myself crazy , I'm sticking with one accurate load , working on form until a barrel change then it starts all over .

Chris
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Old November 28, 2018, 07:06 PM   #16
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CW quote:
Quote:
I do see a variation in neck thickness but I check my runout 1/8" above the case on the bullet .
Even with little bullet runout, if the neck walls are noticeably thin or thick on one side it seems like the bullet would be sitting there canted slightly off center of the axis and bore. The point measured where no runout exists, doesn't mean the tail and tip of the bullet are in alignment to it's axis. Once fired it seems some yaw would be introduced as the bullet engages the rifling.

Discounting neck turning for a tight chamber, I envision two potential advantages for neck turning, 1. bullet alignment with the bore (discussed above). 2. an equal amount of brass surrounding/holding the bullet allowing equal expansion of the neck and release of the bullet.

"Seems like" and "envision" are indicators of my thoughts and imagination, and are not based on personal experience. Just stuff rattling around inside my head.

mine is a Savage 10 FCP and it seems capable of some respectable accuracy. Recently I managed a 5 shot, 5/8" group. What bugs me are groups with two or three rounds through the same hole (that nearly look like only one bullet went there), or groups of four at 1/2" and then that seemingly inevitable flyer.

Those flyers just keep me wondering what is causing it. I know when I pulled one or lost concentration, but the "for no reason" flyer is really bugging me. I just gotta finger it out, and eliminating variables through consistency is my method.

Besides, it's all damn fun.
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Old November 28, 2018, 08:22 PM   #17
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I saved the target , I shot the first round dead center on the bull follower by the second and third . One hole dead center at 200 yards , I knew I would screw the group up so I stopped there . Three shot groups looks good but to be real 5 and above is the real deal . Never started out like that again . I agree the best way to get there is to have your reloads as perfect as possible . I'm using brass from a friend that doesn't reload , he's shooting HSM 308 A-Max Match and Federal Match . The brass is HSM , FC and ADI all are on the thick side and not at the top of the list for brass . I'm an addict in the sport of shooting , reloading and talking about both . Wouldn't take to much for me to start trimming the necks even , just afraid I would take too much off . Your talking to a guy that also likes prepping the cases from flash holes being the same size & deburring , uniforming primer pockets , trimming every firing . Some things oonly have to be done once but it's part of the game . Sorry to make a long story long , just like talking gun stuff . Be Well.

Chris
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