Rear sight for leading airplanes - info

cessna123 · January 24, 2018, 11:46 AM

This is a rear sight for leading airplanes. Can anyone provide any information on this?

JT-AR-MG42 · January 24, 2018, 01:06 PM

Leading them where?
Good story (if you can fill it out a bit) though.
Hope you didn't buy it, the story that is, on a rifle.

That looks to be a receiver sight.
Maker's name should be on it.
These sights were very popular in the days before standard rifle scope use
and higher quality versions are still used for target shooting (as in the Olympics).

IFAIK, receiver sights like the one you have pictured were never standard issue on U.S. combat rifles.
JT

T. O'Heir · January 24, 2018, 03:47 PM

That sight has nothing to do with aircraft. It's a target sight that goes on the receiver like JT-AR-MG42 says. Exactly what receiver is unknown. Might be a .22. Might be an '03A3.

Jim Watson · January 24, 2018, 04:01 PM

Looks like a Lyman No 48 target peep sight. Dead common in its day. Base shape looks like Springfield.

Strangely enough, there was a Lyman sight made for anti-aircraft training with the 1922 .22 rifle. It was the regular No 48 base and elevation slide, but instead of a peep sight aperture, it had an open notch. Very scarce, I have only seen a few pictures, none in person.

James K · January 24, 2018, 09:28 PM

Jim Watson is correct, but the idea soon went away when it became obvious that shooting at airplanes with rifles would not be very production, although some countries (e.g., Japan) continued to issue rifle sights with "wings" that could be opened outward for firing at aircraft. It was probably done more to let the troops feel that hey were doing something to fight off the seemingly invincible airplane than to provide a realistic defense against aerial attack.

Jim

cessna123 · January 25, 2018, 09:42 AM

Wow, how embarassing. I remember Dad showing me a wings out sight on a rifle for aircraft purposes so I've been looking for it. I found the side mount peep sight and thought that was it. Dad did part with a Japanese sniper rifle years back - maybe that was it.

**Mike Irwin** · January 25, 2018, 12:21 PM

The rifle your Dad showed you was very likely a Japanese Type 99 Arisaka, which had fold-out anti-aircraft wings.

Good video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2EkEsvwARE

joed · January 25, 2018, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cessna123

Wow, how embarassing. I remember Dad showing me a wings out sight on a rifle for aircraft purposes so I've been looking for it. I found the side mount peep sight and thought that was it. Dad did part with a Japanese sniper rifle years back - maybe that was it.

Well, we all make a blunder once in awhile, yours just came sooner then expected. welcome to the forum.

**44 AMP** · January 25, 2018, 03:43 PM

Quote:

It was probably done more to let the troops feel that hey were doing something to fight off the seemingly invincible airplane than to provide a realistic defense against aerial attack.

While it did do that, every once in a while, it actually worked. There are records where aircraft have been shot down by rifle fire from the ground. A single 7.7mm bullet can down a P-40 (or any other liquid cooled single engine aircraft) IF it hits just the right spot (engine cooling system).

The best tactic was for the entire unit (platoon, company, etc.) to volley fire at the aircraft. Ground attack aircraft, especially in the Pacific often flew within rifle range in order to spot their targets.

Was it as good as MGs and AA guns? no. On the other hand, all it cost was a few rounds of ammo, and troops were shooting back, and once in a while though rare it did work.

cessna123 · January 25, 2018, 06:57 PM

Of some consolation, maybe Dad didn't part ways with the Japanese sniper rifle - I found his bayonet that would fit the Ariska 99.

Buzzcook · January 26, 2018, 01:33 AM

cessna123 You'll want to take some light oil and 0000steel wool to that bayonet.

I heard a story about a p-51 pilot saying he was shot down by a single rifle shot by a German soldier while doing ground cover in Holland. At a different gather describing the same battle an American soldier said he had shot down a Messerschmidt with a single shot from his rifle.

**Mike Irwin** · January 26, 2018, 06:39 AM

A friend of mine was a Cobra pilot in Gulf War I.

He was shot down by an Iraqi with an AK-47.

One bullet managed to find that magical entry point and damaged and damaged an oil line, causing the engine to overheat. They had to sit down about 40 miles short of their base.

shuvelrider · January 27, 2018, 09:41 PM

"Leading" sight are built into rifles currently, the standard M16 rifle is set up that way. Those protective ears around the front sight post that seem flared out, are actually used as a leading sight for enemy troops. Running either left or right, use the opposite ear as your front sight post.

James K · January 28, 2018, 12:22 AM

New one on me. While that could have been done, or maybe even was, I am pretty sure the sight guards were put there to protect the sight blade from damage, not as an aiming point for a running enemy soldier.

FWIW, the early M1 rifle, of WWII fame, originally had front sight guards that were almost straight. Then it was found that too many soldiers were mistaking one or the other guard for the front sight blade, so the guards on both the M1 rifle and M1 carbine were given a greater outward bend.

Jim

shuvelrider · January 28, 2018, 08:12 PM

It's covered under the section of "advanced shooting skills" in the marksmanship field manual------ believe it or not

January 24, 2018, 01:06 PM	#2
JT-AR-MG42 Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 555	Leading them where? Good story (if you can fill it out a bit) though. Hope you didn't buy it, the story that is, on a rifle. That looks to be a receiver sight. Maker's name should be on it. These sights were very popular in the days before standard rifle scope use and higher quality versions are still used for target shooting (as in the Olympics). IFAIK, receiver sights like the one you have pictured were never standard issue on U.S. combat rifles. JT Last edited by JT-AR-MG42; January 24, 2018 at 01:12 PM.

January 24, 2018, 03:47 PM	#3
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	That sight has nothing to do with aircraft. It's a target sight that goes on the receiver like JT-AR-MG42 says. Exactly what receiver is unknown. Might be a .22. Might be an '03A3. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 25, 2018, 12:21 PM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	The rifle your Dad showed you was very likely a Japanese Type 99 Arisaka, which had fold-out anti-aircraft wings. Good video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2EkEsvwARE __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 26, 2018, 06:39 AM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	A friend of mine was a Cobra pilot in Gulf War I. He was shot down by an Iraqi with an AK-47. One bullet managed to find that magical entry point and damaged and damaged an oil line, causing the engine to overheat. They had to sit down about 40 miles short of their base. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

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January 24, 2018, 04:01 PM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Looks like a Lyman No 48 target peep sight. Dead common in its day. Base shape looks like Springfield. Strangely enough, there was a Lyman sight made for anti-aircraft training with the 1922 .22 rifle. It was the regular No 48 base and elevation slide, but instead of a peep sight aperture, it had an open notch. Very scarce, I have only seen a few pictures, none in person.

January 24, 2018, 09:28 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Jim Watson is correct, but the idea soon went away when it became obvious that shooting at airplanes with rifles would not be very production, although some countries (e.g., Japan) continued to issue rifle sights with "wings" that could be opened outward for firing at aircraft. It was probably done more to let the troops feel that hey were doing something to fight off the seemingly invincible airplane than to provide a realistic defense against aerial attack. Jim

January 25, 2018, 09:42 AM	#6
cessna123 Member Join Date: January 8, 2018 Posts: 28	Wow, how embarassing. I remember Dad showing me a wings out sight on a rifle for aircraft purposes so I've been looking for it. I found the side mount peep sight and thought that was it. Dad did part with a Japanese sniper rifle years back - maybe that was it.

January 26, 2018, 01:33 AM	#11
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	cessna123 You'll want to take some light oil and 0000steel wool to that bayonet. I heard a story about a p-51 pilot saying he was shot down by a single rifle shot by a German soldier while doing ground cover in Holland. At a different gather describing the same battle an American soldier said he had shot down a Messerschmidt with a single shot from his rifle.

January 27, 2018, 09:41 PM	#13
shuvelrider Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2011 Location: West Coast of Michigan Posts: 132	"Leading" sight are built into rifles currently, the standard M16 rifle is set up that way. Those protective ears around the front sight post that seem flared out, are actually used as a leading sight for enemy troops. Running either left or right, use the opposite ear as your front sight post.

January 28, 2018, 12:22 AM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	New one on me. While that could have been done, or maybe even was, I am pretty sure the sight guards were put there to protect the sight blade from damage, not as an aiming point for a running enemy soldier. FWIW, the early M1 rifle, of WWII fame, originally had front sight guards that were almost straight. Then it was found that too many soldiers were mistaking one or the other guard for the front sight blade, so the guards on both the M1 rifle and M1 carbine were given a greater outward bend. Jim

January 28, 2018, 08:12 PM	#15
shuvelrider Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2011 Location: West Coast of Michigan Posts: 132	It's covered under the section of "advanced shooting skills" in the marksmanship field manual------ believe it or not