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Old February 27, 2007, 02:18 PM   #101
STLRN
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Not to get sidelined, but "no one claims that the climate is not getting warmer" is not exactly correct either. I suggest you read Christopher Horner's "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming." He cited many real climatologist, vice the landscape artists, OBGYNs, plastic surgeon, astronomers who are listed as scientists who say climate actually is going up in temperature. It seems the PHDs in who actually study the climate have a different view than many of the scientist who study other topics. Additionally he cites numerous "inconvenient truths" about data collected methods and who many of the scientist in the consensus of global warming actually are.

That is one reason, I would like to see more medical/physiological personnels views of this and less psychologists' views.
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Old February 27, 2007, 02:56 PM   #102
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I haven't read Horner's stuff, but I do know one of the most outspoken critics of global warming: Dr.Robert Balling. What I read and was taught at ASU 7 or 8 years ago was that the earth is warming - it has to be - because in geologic time, we are still coming out of the last ice age. Weather recording has not been around for much more than 150 years, so in terms of geologic time that is less than the blink of an eye. What proponents say is that man has accellerated the pace through greenhouse gas emission based primarily on computer models and 150 years of weather data. Opponents say that the warming is a natural occurance.

Similar to our argument here in several ways. I think the most noteworthy is the mechanics of socialization. The media is jumping on the man has caused global warming bandwagon despite the fact that global warming is still just theory. But you mark my words: In a few short years (if not already), the general public (sheeple) will accept that global warming is a fact. It has already started with the "Hollywood effect", that is celebraties pushing the cause, and has also moved past the "CNN effect" which is most "news" agencies pushing the stories without presenting both sides of the argument. They are also "priming" the public by telling them what issues are important and "agenda setting" by presenting their choice issues in the forefront and weighting their coverage to one side. It will soon become an accepted "fact" that man caused global warming in spite of the fact that there is as much data to support either side of the argument. That is an illustration of the effects of socialization in action.
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Old February 27, 2007, 03:07 PM   #103
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Again you are basing your premise on the belief that these reactions will happen to everyone every time.
No, I don't believe that at all.
In fact, I've already said that I'm speaking in generalities.

There are some people that can take a punch that would knock out the average guy. If you are one of the odd folk who have no fear and feel no pain or stress, then more power to ya.

Why do you think that most combat vets will only talk experiences with combat vets? They find comfort in brothers who understand the fears and rarely want to re-visit them.

Empirical evidence and experience (not PhD's and gunwriters) says that most everyone will fail at some point in stressful situations. Training can mitigate fear somewhat, but we're all humans subject to the same frailties and the ultimate fear of dying.

I think that if someone ambushed you and was shooting at you.....that you'd scream, run like a rabbit, lose your fine motor skills and freak out for a bit. It's about our first instinct to live.
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Old February 27, 2007, 06:12 PM   #104
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I can give as much evidence that what you say isn't true. While I haven't been ambushed, I have been in a few scrapes and I didn't scream or run like a rabbit. I have talked to many 'nam and Desert Storm vets and have several friends in the SPECOPS community who were in Afghanistan and Iraq. To a man, they have said that when the SHTF, they didn't have time to be scared. It was like being on autopilot and they automatically did what they were trained to do. None of them froze, panicked or lost motor control. Granted the sample size is small - about 35 or 40, but of those, none experienced the debiltating effects that you espouse.
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Old February 27, 2007, 07:04 PM   #105
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Reminds me of the Grossman lecture, the Bullet Proof Mind.

During the opening to the lecture he mentioned 1 out of 4 of combat troops admitted to relieving themselves in contact with the enemy. When a paratrooper from the 2nd WWII, was interviewed by Grossman (who has claimed to have interviewed thousands of mil and LEO by this point) his comment on that statistic was 3 out of 4 combat troops are liars.
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Old February 27, 2007, 11:54 PM   #106
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STLRN,

Then wouldn't there be a possiblity that the trooper Grossman interviewed was a liar?
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Old February 28, 2007, 12:08 AM   #107
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I think the whole point is that, often men and women don't like to admit to some things that happen.

I know allot of people prior to leaving the wire that forces themselves to empty their bowels to prevent this from occurring.
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Old February 28, 2007, 01:22 PM   #108
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I have talked to many 'nam and Desert Storm vets and have several friends in the SPECOPS community who were in Afghanistan and Iraq. To a man, they have said that when the SHTF, they didn't have time to be scared.
Believe this: As soon as they realized it was real and they could die....they were scared....or they were already dead.

Keep in mind that there's strength in numbers. There's courage in numbers.
Same goes for firefighters, cops and SWAT teams. Do you think these people would enter a raging fire alone? Confront armed maniacs alone? Not be scared? Retain fine motor control?
Soldiers are trained to fight with both complex and gross motor skills and to follow orders under pressure. That's soldiering.

But your issue is whether one loses fine motor control in a deadly confrontation; a survival stress situation.
The answer is absolutely yes.

It's well established now that when the sympathetic nervous system activates and one's heart rate reaches about 115 bpm, vasoconstriction and dexterity begin to deteriorate and inhibit our fine motor skills like trigger squeeze and sight alignment.....but 115-145 bpm is also considered optimum combat level performance.
Gross motor group skills are the only muscle movements that don't deteriorate and actually improve as the heart rate increases.

So, here's the deal:
Training, job repetition and familiarity can help to mitigate low levels of stress, fear, heart rate and hormone dump.

But, it's really all about perceived 'control' of the situation.
Take away the 'control' of a deadly situation and heart rate increases drastically, hormone dump is maximized and there will be very high stress leading to fear then terror and possibly panic.
Fight could turn to flight.
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Old February 28, 2007, 01:44 PM   #109
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It is not an absolute, to be an absolute it would happen to everyone every time.
Nonsense. It is an absolute that there will be a car wreck today. The fact that not every car wrecks every time does not change that fact. It is an absolute that everyone can suffere loss of fine motor skills. The fact that not everyone suffers it in the same situation does not change that.
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Also, as far as I can tell from readins several of Dr. Lewinsky's articles and other writings, he most certainly does believe it can be controlled.
Everybody says it can be controlled under certain conditions. The issue is that it cannot be controlled under all conditions or at all times.
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If these techniques have no "real world" application, then why are these agencies willing to pay good money to be taught them?
Usually these guys are hired to teach a specific skill, such as how to shoot, not how to fight. The various skills are integrated into a fighting platform, which is quite different than a competition platform in most cases. Again, I don't think many say there is no "real world" application, it is that the real world application is frequently different than the competition application.
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Old February 28, 2007, 02:33 PM   #110
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I really think we have beat this one to death.
Sky
I have spoken to and read many accounts of vets who did realize they could die and weren't scared. I was a LRRP, I had plenty of contact with guys who when the **** hit the fan were outnumbered, outgunned and on the run. None of them ever said they fell apart under pressure. In fact they said just the opposite. They attributed it to the constant training and repetition of all the immediate action drills we practiced on a nearly daily basis.
I was talking to a guy who was in on the Inchon landing. He said "we were scared until about the time the ramp dropped. After that, things happened so fast the you did what you were trained to do." I can cite hundreds of other examples.
The problem while it may appear to be semantics is not.
You say: a person will lose control under stress.
I say: a person may lose control under stress.
There is a big difference.
Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen? Yes. Can it happen to everyone? Again, yes. Can it happen to the same person in one situation and not another? Yep.
But to say that it will happen is strecthing the truth. It doesn't matter what you say, the evidence exists to show that these reactions can be controlled. Whether you choose to believe it is a personal choice.

DA
Not much I can argue with in your post.
Other than to say that I have run into many people who want to say that the skills that competition shooters develop are only good for competition and have no "real world" application. I would never debate tactics, there are millions out there who have forgotten more than I will ever know. However, technique is another story. The mechanics of shooting are the same - no matter what the target is.

On that note, I am bowing out of this one since I don't see where we are going to go that we haven't already been.
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Old February 28, 2007, 03:14 PM   #111
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The training today is much better than it was in any previous wars, I have created and seen summations of training schedules and ammo expenditure reports from both present and past. We shoot what would have been considered ungodly amounts of ammo in the past, spend tons of time on live/hot ranges, doing allot of force on force via MILES and Simunitions. Yet you see guys who still experience those effects that should have been trained out of them. I am sure many aren't even aware of what others see them do, and when asked afterwards the may not be aware of things like putting 4 bursts into a guy or dropping a magazine inadvertently.
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Old February 28, 2007, 03:35 PM   #112
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Other than to say that I have run into many people who want to say that the skills that competition shooters develop are only good for competition and have no "real world" application.
I too think those people are wrong. The counterpoint, of course, is those who claim that becasue they are good in competition they will also automatically be good in a real gunfight. They won't. They might be, and it will depend in part on their ability to recognize the different skills needed for different outcomes.
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Old February 28, 2007, 07:38 PM   #113
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DA,

THanks for making clear the what I believe to be the point of many criticisms of people who have competitive shooting success and then go into the defensive instruction arena.... The same is true of people who have been in lethal critical incidents... living through it does not mean you automatically have anything significant to offer as an instructor.
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Old February 28, 2007, 09:14 PM   #114
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You say: a person will lose control under stress.
I say: a person may lose control under stress.
For the record, I never said that!
I said that as one's stress level rises even the best trained folk are subject to sympathetic nervous system activation and all its debilitating effects.

Remember, you started this thread by saying: "those who claim that under stress you will lose control of your fine motor skills were wrong."

Well, live and learn.
Just a few posts back I said to you: "But your issue is whether one loses fine motor control in a deadly confrontation; a survival stress situation.
The answer is absolutely yes.

It's well established now that when the sympathetic nervous system activates and one's heart rate reaches about 115 bpm, vasoconstriction and dexterity begin to deteriorate and inhibit our fine motor skills like trigger squeeze and sight alignment."

That's it....that's the bottom line. By autonomic design, one 'will' lose his fine motor skills from about 115 heart bpm on up.
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Old February 28, 2007, 09:31 PM   #115
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Rob..you and Skyguy have more patience than myself.
I hope to share a cup of coffee with you on April 4th.
Over and out of here.
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Old March 1, 2007, 07:09 AM   #116
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Though this thread has probably gone on way too long already, there have been (as always) some real nuggets of good info. One thing that I have been reminded of is that our bodies were "programmed" to kick into the brute strength mode in mortal danger. That's what the chemical dump is all about and why it happens. It is a fact of human existence. Brute strength mode is simply not conducive to fine motor skills--it was, in fact, made to overwhelm fine motor skills with sheer adrenaline. We were made for powerful fight or flight, not brain surgery, at those times. You can try to be a brain surgeon in times of mortal danger, but....
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Old March 4, 2007, 10:22 PM   #117
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On this fine motor skills thing, I don't think it is a myth, but it doesn't happen in a quick gunfight, because it takes a little longer for your emotions to get to you.

I am not a cop, But I have shot combat competitions for a long time, in the past. I have had a couple of mexican standoffs, where I was armed, and never felt a lose of fine motor skills, I felt cool, calm and in control of the siduation, because I knew my capabilities.

But on the other hand, I got into an extended family squable, one time, with another person, who was very upset, I was starting to fear that violence would erupt, at anytime, and I was carrying. This is really a bad siduation, because this person had a reputation for resorting to violence, when mad, but at the same time, I knew I didn't want to have to shoot this person, no matter what, I started to leave, and when I got to my truck this person kicked the glass out of a door on the porch.

By this time my nerves were a complete shambles, almost, and I left, but my motor skills were not worth a crap at that time. I let my emotions take over, and it destroyed my fine motor skills. So I know it can happen.
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Old March 5, 2007, 11:08 PM   #118
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Didn't Mas Ayoob do a study where they injected adrenaline, or should I say, endorphin, and showed that even with a heart rate of 120 bpm, one could still do complex 'fine motor skills'?

Me thinks is much more that how much adrenaline you have in your system. Like fear. If you can control your fear, or even banish it, you won't loose your fine motor skills. And that's why the samurai code was to consider themselves dead already. They were trying to banish all fear so they would be able to operate better in intense environments.
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Old March 6, 2007, 08:51 PM   #119
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It is more than just the chemical cocktail, you would have to trigger the flight or flight response. When that occurs the blood flows away from the extremities, the believe purpose of this to to reduce increase survival for extremity wounds.
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Old March 6, 2007, 10:29 PM   #120
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Gentlemen...
I just began reading Training At The Speed Of Life by Ken Murray.
The book goes into this in great detail and with a lot of evidence for the reader to make up his own mind on this issue.
It is available at Amazon.
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Old March 6, 2007, 10:31 PM   #121
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Welll then that's kind of funny. I'm reading a book by a guy named Joe Foss. He did some stuff way back about 60 years ago. He wrote that while yes, he was scared, he said you got so busy you forgot you were scared. He talked alot about the co-ordination one needed to do the kind of things he did and how with training it became second nature. Some did freeze up, some didn't.

Funny he would say all that and here everyone is talking about freeking out when one get scared. And I would say much of what he did took some fine motor cordination, fast.

You guys do know who Smokie Joe was, don't you?
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Old March 7, 2007, 08:22 AM   #122
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Yes and there is also been allot of work saying there are the "ten percent" of natural born killers, who don't seem to suffer or have a much latter onset of the effects. The problem is you won't know who they are until the bullets start flying. No amount of training will replicate what happens in a fight, you can get close, but you never get the same feeling from training or competition.
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Old March 7, 2007, 04:00 PM   #123
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"living through it does not mean you automatically have anything significant to offer as an instructor."

Other than to teach a conflict avoidance seminar in "what not to do"

Gross...fine...who cares....you are not at your best when stress enters the scenario. There are so many variables it becomes a chicken and the egg argument...was his heart rate high because was angry/scared or was he scared/abgry because his heart rate was high

And you never know what will suddenly cause that stress that will trip you up

There are plenty of cases of people who suddenly panic in a situation they have been in plenty of times before...maybe it was something they ate

I also believe that competition can make you a good /fast shot which can help in a defensive shooting....it can also help you to learn to shoot well under stress

But it does not train you to fight with the weapon...it teaches you to compete with the weapon....

They can be very different
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Old March 7, 2007, 06:33 PM   #124
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Every war movie talks about being scared.
And no one is saying that one cannot prevail in combat while scared. (Is courage not the ability to do it anyway, even when scared stiff?)
All we are saying is that under stress there may be some loss of fine motor skills and that it may be smart to use weapons that don't require a safety to be pushed off or required complicated techniques.
And a big +1 to the last posts by STLRN and Obiwan.
My feelings exactly.
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Old March 8, 2007, 10:33 AM   #125
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It's all about control of the situation:

If you are ambushed you are very scared, lose fine motor skills and....depending on the intensity of one's fear of dying....definitely go through the gambit of SNS effects. (defense - little control)

If it's your ambush or offense you're afraid you'll die, but do it anyway. (offense - more control)

That's it! We don't need a library of books to explain that.
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