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Old June 6, 2017, 07:39 PM   #1
ka9fax
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7.7 Japanese Arisaka reloading

Hi, I have a type 99 Arisaka in very nice shape that my grandpa brought home. seems to hold a five shot group of 3 1/2 inches at 100 yards on sandbags. i'm going to reload for the 7.7X58 caliber using Redding dies, PPU brass, WLR primers and 180 grain Sierra .311 Spitzer.
I have six reloading manual's and cannot find anything for Varget, RL-15 or W748. I would like to load with one of these 3 powders because I have close to 60 pounds between the three. I do not want to buy another
powder suggested. I did find some data on BLC 2 and will use that if I have to but I only have 1 pound. LOL. Any help with load data on the other three powders would be greatly appreciated. Also I used a Hornady OAL gage and can not hit lands with this bullet style. is this normal?
Thanks

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Old June 6, 2017, 08:47 PM   #2
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CAUTION: The following post includes load data generated by calculation in QuickLOAD software based on a particular powder lot, the assumption the primer is as mild as possible, and assumptions about component, chamber and gun geometry that may not correspond well to what you have. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QuickLOAD's author nor its distributor assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it.

Remember, this is a relatively low pressure round, Maximum MAP is 45 ksi. Given this, QL says about 41 gr of Varget, Reloder 15 or 748 should have you below 38 ksi. You might sneak up from there, but not much. I presume you just want to shoot it, not hunt grizz.
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Old June 6, 2017, 08:58 PM   #3
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Thank you ligonierbill,
yes just want to take it out once in a while and shoot some paper. thanks alot for info looks like a great start for me. So your saying any 3 powders show the same 41gr? if so, prob. keep it right there. just looking to get it out a few times a year...lol
thanks agn.
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Old June 6, 2017, 09:37 PM   #4
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Very close at 41, and better than 80% case fill. You might research the original military load performance and try to get close.
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Old June 6, 2017, 10:01 PM   #5
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Thank You ligonierbill.
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Old June 7, 2017, 12:01 PM   #6
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QuickLoad is NOT a loading manual.
This is out of my old Lyman manual.
Bullet diameter cast and jacketed: .311" or .312".(Barrels need slugging.)
Max Case Length: 2.269"
Trim-to: 2.260"
Max OAL w. bullet: 3.150"

150 grain Jacketed
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
IMR3031 42.0 2444 46.0 2717
IMR4895 43.0 2386 48.0 2754
IMR4064 43.0 2267 48.0 2666
IMR4320 45.0 2421 49.0 2717
IMR4350 49.0 2304 54.0 2659
H380 47.0 2375 52.0 2695

Accuracy Load: 43.0 grains IMR4064 2267 fps.

180 Grain Jacketed
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
IMR3031 39.0 2202 43.0 2444
IMR4895 42.0 2304 46.0 2564
IMR4064 42.0 2227 46.0 2512
IMR4320 43.0 2302 47.0 2590
IMR4350 47.0 2207 51.0* 2538
H380 45.0 2237 50.0 2525

Accuracy Load: 47.0 grains IMR4350 2207 fps
Factory duplication Load: 44.8 IMR4895 2500 fps.
'*' indicates a compressed load.

215 grain Jacketed(Woodleigh makes 'em. Midway sells 'em.)
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
IMR3031 35.0 1992 39.0 2178
IMR4895 39.0 2127 43.0 2352
IMR4064 39.0 2053 43.0 2293
IMR4320 41.0 2178 44.0 2347
H380 43.0 2123 48.0 2352

Accuracy Load: 49.0 grains IMR4350 2375 fps.
Factory Duplication Load: 40.0 IMR4895 2197 fps.

155 grain Cast w. Gas Check
Lyman mold #311466 #2 alloy
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
Unique 11.0 1470 15.0 1739
2400 22.0 1821 24.0 1953

205 grain Cast w. Gas Check
Lyman mold #311299 #2 alloy
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
Unique 10.0 1250 14.0 1524
2400 21.0 1607 24.0 1792
IMR4227 28.0 1923 30.0 2049

213/214 grain Cast w. Gas Check
Lyman molds #311290 and #311284 respectively(Montana Bullet Co makes the 213 at least)
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
Unique 10.0 1214 13.0 1423
2400 21.0 1595 24.0 1739
IMR4227 28.0 1865 30.0 1992

Accuracy Load: 30.0 grains IMR4227 1992 fps.
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Old June 7, 2017, 02:01 PM   #7
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The powders you want to use are newer than the bulk of 7.7mm Jap loading data. I have the old Lyman data, and some others, and nearly ALL of it is IMR powders.

If there's 7.7x58 data with newer powders, I don't know where it is, sorry.

I use IMR 4895, because its my go to powder for all the WW II era milsurp rounds. 7.7mm Jap, .303Brit, 8x57 Mauser, 7.62x54R Russian, and .30-06 GI loads. There are other IMR powders that work just as well, some maybe even slightly better.

You might look for new data for the .303 British. The 7.7mm Jap is essentially the ballistic twin of the .303, and while rimless, and with slightly different case body dimensions, I believe the capacity is very similar. If you can find .303 Data for the powders you want to use, it should make a good starting point for working up 7.7mm loads.

A word of caution about shooting Arisakas, keep an eye on the stock! The action is strong enough (more than) but the multi piece military stock sometimes comes apart during recoil. 70+ years of who knows what kind of storage sometimes affects the glue they used.

Happened to me once, not a terribly serious matter, the stock didn't break, just "came unglued" (the fore end separated). Cleaned, reglued, set, and all has been well ever since.

Good Luck!
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Old June 7, 2017, 03:12 PM   #8
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The Hodgdon site has some listings with double base powders along with the stick powders. RE15, Varget and 748 are a bit fast for this cartridge. BLC2 is listed along with H414, H335, and H380 while H4350 and H4895 are listed giving the highest velocities.
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Old June 11, 2017, 03:50 PM   #9
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Some may say I'm crazy for doing this but I've been using .308 Win loading data in 7.7x58 Arisaka rounds for over 20 years. The .308 has a smaller case and the Arisaka type 99 in one of the strongest military bolt action rifles. My 2 Arisaka rifles show no signs of wear for it...

Tony
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Old June 11, 2017, 11:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Some may say I'm crazy for doing this but I've been using .308 Win loading data in 7.7x58 Arisaka rounds for over 20 years.
I won't say you're crazy. Don't know exactly what data you've been using, but if it matches what's in the Lyman 45th edition, you've been loading "7.7mm Jap Lite".

I checked 150 and 180gr jacketed loads and with all the IMR powders listed both the starting and max loads were 3gr more for 7.7 Jap than .308Win.

All of them listed, constant. If the starting load was 40gr for the .308 it was 43gr for the 7.7. if the max was 44gr for the .308, it was 47 for the 7.7mm

The listed charge weights differed for the different powders, but every one was exactly 3 gr higher in 7.7mm with the same bullet weight.
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Old June 12, 2017, 05:13 AM   #11
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The older books I have all loaded the 7.7x58 lighter than the .303 Brit. It's good to see that someone is taking loads for this rifle seriously these days...

Tony
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Old June 12, 2017, 10:58 AM   #12
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OK, now I'm curious what older books you're looking at. The Lyman 45th edition is copyright 1970.

I would think most people today call that "older".

I used that manual, because it was the first one I grabbed that had 7.7mm Jap in it. And drat, now you're making me go look, again....

OK, same Lyman book, .303 Brit vs 7.7Jap, almost the same thing. Most loads for the Jap are 3gr more than the loads for the .303 Brit.

The difference is, its not quite as constant. One of the IMR powder loads is "only" 2.5gr heavier for the 7.7, and another is 4gr heavier in the 7.7 than in the .303

And here's an interesting tidbit, Factory duplication load: 215gr bullet
.303 Brit
IMR 4895 39.6gr 2188fps

7.7Jap
IMR 4895 40.0gr 2197fps

both test rifles 25" barrels. Brother, it don't get much closer than that...
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Old June 13, 2017, 10:35 PM   #13
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It took me awhile to find the book but it's the 1974 Speer reloading manual #9. It shows 7.7x58 Arisaka loads to be grain lower than .308 Win loads across the board. Now you can see why I thought I was being daring by going with .308 load data...

When I bought a new Hornady manual a couple years back, I didn't bother looking up Arisaka loads since I haven't shot the rifle in years. Back when I only had 2 center fire rifles, I shot it a lot. Now I have more than 20 and the old gal doesn't get much attention anymore...

Tony
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Old June 14, 2017, 08:02 AM   #14
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The same amount of powder in a case that is 57 mm long is not the same as having the same amount of powder in a case that is 51 mm long.

I built a wildcat and was headed to the range; I was accused of being involved in some risky stuff, seems my reloading methods and techniques were being questioned. I did not think so but 'JIC' I called Hodgdon, they said my forming loads were safe but difference between being safe and over maximum was the difference between forming a case and a formed case.

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Old June 14, 2017, 10:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
It shows 7.7x58 Arisaka loads to be grain lower than .308 Win loads across the board.
And the Lyman manual from the same era shows 7.7mm loads 3gr heavier then .308Win, across the board (with IMR powders).

This is why reloading data is GUIDELINES.

(At least) Four different rifles were involved in the two different manual's data for the two rounds.

Add in YOUR Arisaka, and that makes 5. Neither of the companies is lying, both are reporting what they got, with what they tested!

Guidelines, NOT hard and fast laws of nature.

Everything about your rifle and ammo is slightly different from what they tested. Everything about my rifle and ammo is slightly different from yours, and from what they tested.

Even though the rifles may be the same make, model & caliber, and ammo components may even be the same lot# as those used in testing (highly unlikely, but not completely impossible) there will be slight differences in the way ALL the factors interact. And ONE way those differences show up is in different powder charges being listed.

GUIDELINES

only.
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Old June 14, 2017, 07:05 PM   #16
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I couldn't agree more. I don't know now many times I loaded up the minimum load and found it to be so good shooting I didn't bother to work up...

With the 7.7x58 the Speer top loads weren't even coming close flattening out the primers so when I went up a grain to the listed data for the .308, I got the shooting characteristics I was looking for. I see no reason to load it any hotter.

Tony
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Old June 14, 2017, 07:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
It shows 7.7x58 Arisaka loads to be grain lower than .308 Win loads across the board
.

No one connected the dots but there was a question about Swiss riles old style and a modern rifle with the same chamber. An old friend died and understood it was going to happen so he asked me to clean out his shop. He taught a gun smith school in a school that did not have a gun smith program. One of the rifles he built was an Argentine 1891 chambered to 308 W. When I loaded it (in the truck) he said it was a 308W, I argued, thinking no one I knew would chamber the old 7.65 Belgum Mauser/Argentine Mauser to 308W. Before I went to the range with all of the rifles I checked the chambers, the Argentine 1891 had a 308W chamber and a M1917 barrel. The 308W is a different case because it is shorter from the shoulder to the case head and the case body is larger in diameter.

Failing to see the connections and not being able to connect the dots? The Argentine does not have a safety lug and the gas escape handling system is non-existent. The only small ring Mauser with a hint of a safety lug is the Chilean Mauser, and then there was the Crag by Springfield, while all of the Mausers were being made with small rings Springfield was building the Crag with only one forward locking lug.

And it is said the Rough Riders were shooting the Crag wishing they had a Mauser, in those days that was fashionable, in Africa the British were shooting the 303 wishing they had Mausers.

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Old June 14, 2017, 11:15 PM   #18
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Fortunately this is not the case with Arisaka rifles. The earlier type 38 takes an odd 6.5mm round while the type 99 takes a round that is pretty much a rimless .303 Brit. The Type 99 is supposed to be stronger than the 98 Mauser. I know that Ackley used a few of them to test his wildcat rounds...

Tony
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Old June 15, 2017, 02:51 AM   #19
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Ackley's work doing blow up tests with different bolt actions is legendary. However, like most legends, some important things fade away with time.

It is widely remembered that the Arisaka actions he tested were the "strongest" meaning they took the most pressure to blow up.

What isn't well remembered is what pressure that took, and what pressure the "weaker" rifles took, before failing. Probably because its not really relevant. While I don't have the numbers available right now, at blow up level pressures the actual number isn't significant to shooter USE.

IF Rifle A blows up at 110,000psi, and Rifle B doesn't fail until 120,500psi, Rifle B goes down in history as "stronger".

Considering that the brass will fail well before the rifle blows up, I don't see where ultimate blow up strength is something to concern the ordinary user.
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Old June 16, 2017, 05:52 AM   #20
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I'm not advocating over charging Arisaka loads but rather explaining why I didn't think light loads were all that were safe in these rifles.

As a kid in the 1960s I heard all sorts of stories about Japanese rifles being junk. Later on when I started hanging out with people more in the know, I found out otherwise. I was just getting serious reloading in the Fidonet days and I was fortunate to be able to talk with Ed Harris and others that really know their stuff and were willing to share their know how freely.

BTW, I found my 2 Arisaka rifles to be more accurate with reformed .30-06 cases than with Norma 7.7mmx58 cases. At first I was concerned that I'd need a neck reamer but I think the thicker neck is what's improving the accuracy. The thicker neck is making up for some of the slop in the chamber...

Tony

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Old June 16, 2017, 07:01 AM   #21
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And then? There was the NRA story, a reloader stuffed a 30/06 reamer somewhere into one of the two rifles and no one can explain to me how he got the pilot of the 30/06 reamer into the .264/6.5mm barrel.

So, the story is one of the most boring stories I have ever been involved with until one day I had the opportunity to talk to a Japanese gun smith. I said; "Forget the rifle, I want the cases because if the rifle did not blow up the cases did not blow up", meaning the cases had to be the strongest cases in the world. And then there was that story about welding the barrel muzzle shut.

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Old June 16, 2017, 09:19 AM   #22
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Sometimes in handloading...we just don't have good data for the components we have on hand. So...sometimes we have to do some math, make some educated guesses, and solve our own problems.

When I don't have good data, I find similar data and extrapolate. Hodgdon lists data for the 303 Brit and 7.62x54r both with 180gr bullets and Varget.

While not exactly the same as the 7.7 Jap, I would feel comfortable doing a load workup starting with the 303 Brit data and going into the 7.62x54r data as the case design, capacity, and bullet weight and diameter all match up nicely.

So, I think that Varget should work just fine in the 7.7 Jap as it works fine in the 303 Brit and 7.62x54r. There's a very wide range of powder charges in there because the Lee Enfield isn't as strong as a Mosin Nagant. But an Arisaka is quite strong, so the 7.62x54r data might be the better starting point, although the 303 Brit data seems like it would make for some gentle on the shoulder hunting loads.

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Old November 12, 2017, 10:09 AM   #23
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FWIW, I've had good luck with my favorite powder - RL15. Using pulled 7.62x54R bullets and a moderate load of 45.0 grains, produced a 2-3 inch 5 shot group @100 yards (iron sights), at 2550 fps. Increased loads produced decreased accuracy although higher velocities. As always develop your own loads.

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Old November 12, 2017, 06:43 PM   #24
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Wow, that would be great if I could use RL 15. That is what I use for my 308 so I’m sitting on about 15 pounds. I love that stuff. LOL. Unfortunately, I have many books but not been able to find much on this cartridge and haven’t found anything using RL 15. Can I ask you What bullet and weight you are using? I am using 180 Sierra. 311 pro hunter #2310. If you feel I am using too heavy I’ll be bullet I can back down. The only reason for this bullet is it’s the same one I use in my mosins. I was wanting to stay with one bullet weight and type for both firearms if I can, but no biggie. This firearm is only used for 100 yards off a sandbag 5 shot groups. Would appreciate any loading info you can give. For instants, started load, max per Bullet weight would be greatly appreciated thanks For your help.
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Old November 13, 2017, 07:45 AM   #25
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Yes, zilch out there on Reloader 15 for the 7.7. I started out in the low 40 grains and worked my way up. My main clue, among others was Varget/RL15 loadings for the .303 British. Hodgdon shows Varget @ 39.0 start and 42.0 max for the .303-150 gr. bullet right around 2500 fps. (Sorry, I left out Russian bullet weights, they average 150 grs.) I say that because the weights from these surplus rounds vary a lot, compared to modern bullets.

Also, I erred on my initial post re velocity. I corrected it and lowered it to 2550 fps. Note; there is conjecture and disagreement on equivalency between Varget and Reloader loadings/ burn rates etc, I'll let you determine its correlation -if any. Alliant shows 42 grs of RL15 for a Speer 180 bullet weight, which may be a max load listing (?)

Reloader is my go-to powder for quite a few calibers, so I'm glad it worked out for the 7.7 too. My 1942 rifle has the bayonet, aircraft sights, monopod, dust cover, and an intact mum-a GI bring back war rifle. But terrible surface bluing and a dinged up stock. But a sweet chrome lined bore ! If only my 3 Nagants shot this well... Good Luck on your shooting.

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