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Old February 10, 2007, 07:20 AM   #26
Beckerich
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yeah you did handle that quite well, I think I would have been more nervous and would have shouted that I had a gun... then again if he was kicking the door I would have thought he must have been drunk or something. Probably wouldnt have been helpful if you shouted you had a gun or grenades he would have probably said " ah shut up mary, I know you keep them at your mothers" in a drunken slurr.
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Old February 10, 2007, 03:07 PM   #27
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Lurper--
IMHO your head is on very strait. Thanks for taking the time!!
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Yep - great response and handling.

If you have the choice of construction, this is my choice. The front door is 1/2 level below the window on the left of my 5'3" wife and this is where we always answer the front door as she is doing here with the other 2/3 of the welcoming committee. If we don't know them, they don't get the front door opened and, somehow, we've never had anyone try to forcibly open it.



Even door to door solicitors leave after about the third time I explain they have to speak up to be heard over the sound of the barking - even the religious ones.
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Old February 11, 2007, 12:29 PM   #28
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Gotta love the Mastifs. I agree, the OP handled the situation as well as can be expected. While I wouldn't wish something like that on anyone, I do think it's better that it happened to him than one of his neighbor ladies. At least he was prepared to deal with the situation, and they may not have given it much thought. I hope they can learn from this too.
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Old February 11, 2007, 12:34 PM   #29
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Gotta love the Mastifs.
Yep - thanks. They are great!!! They get a little testy if you can't wait until half time to talk, however.



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Old February 14, 2007, 05:22 PM   #30
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canine security

when i am at home, I answer the door with my 45 auto, and my fully loaded Rottweiler. when I am not at home, my Rottweiler answers the door; when the wife is at home (shes so cute) she pulls the door wide open, and lets Oscar (my Rott) answer the door. I know hes not a colt auto. or a Taurus, but when he speaks, people listen. nobody has gotten shot, or hurt. and no, he cannot digest lead. but he would die with somebody's throat in his mouth. how deep is the jugular?
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Old March 1, 2007, 12:30 AM   #31
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Sounds like a very good job handling the situation to me. It kind of resonates with me as being one of those situations I fear the most. The guy was a threat, but it would really stink to have to deal with shooting someone who was too drunk to know they had the wrong door. I'm very glad for you that it didn't turn into that.

One small thing, I'm not sure I'd have let the police in to ask questions about whatever they saw in my bedroom. I know you said why, but they're taking him away at that point anyway. Not that I have anything in particular to hide, it just creeps me out that he was asking about your (legal, I presume) guns.
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Old March 1, 2007, 01:08 AM   #32
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From what I gathered, he let the cops in to show the drunk for sure that his wife was not in his apartment. The cop saw the weapons and merely asked if he was LE due to the weaponry. I did not gather that the cop was asking for any other reason than that. Could be wrong though, it's happened before.
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Old March 1, 2007, 01:09 AM   #33
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Jaxx, that is correct.
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Old March 8, 2007, 03:09 AM   #34
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You did a great job in an elevated stress enviroment. Now you have decide, do you continue on with the relationship with his wife?
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Old March 8, 2007, 09:26 AM   #35
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"I would say the man has a great mindset, and coupled with his training, and cool thinking, it makes him a credit to his community."


+1

I think it was handles as well as could be expected if not better.

IMO it goes to illustrate that intelligence coupled with wisdom are just as, if not more important than, calibres and barrel lengths.

Though I do think the charges against the perp were a little light handed. Around here, criminal mishchief would be what kids do the night before Halloween.
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Old March 8, 2007, 10:57 AM   #36
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This is why less than lethal should always be in your self defense strategy. Your gun was your only option and you could not use it.
I agree that you shold try to have a response avaialalbe appropriate to the threat but the only Less than Lethal responses I see were

1. Chemical spray. A very bad idea in an enclosed space where your avenue of escape is THROUGH the target to be sprayed. The effect is most likely going to be a blind attacker and defender. This is the same reason using a spray from inside a car is touchy, odds are you are going to get a good secondary does yourself.

2. Hand to Hand. Frankly this is, in my opinion, a bad response. A physical encounter can escalate to lethal in the blink of an eye. An experienced street thug is most likely to have far more dirty street fighting experience than the average civilian.

When someone is trying to force entry into your home there is NO REASON not to resort to a lethal response. The poster did well (door openning aside and already acknowledged).

When I am out and about I will have on me a pepper spray in addition to the firearm of the day (depending on dress). I am a BIG FAN of less than lethal. You can get into trouble fast though by misapplying less than lethal when lethal is the most prudent response. THis is not about fighting fair or on equal terms. It is about surviving unharmed.


OJ,

Nice Mastiffs. My family were Mastiff breeders and we travelled the NE show circuit in the spring, summer and fall on the weekends as a child. They are great dogs. My wife likes them but needs a dog with less drool.
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Old March 8, 2007, 11:51 AM   #37
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Not to hijack my own thread, but adding to what Musketeer said:
I see no need as a civilian for less than lethal response. I studied Aikido for more than 10 years and have extensive military training. However, I see no point in engaging someone in a physical altercation when escape is possible. I can only hope that my training buys me enough time if I am ambushed to reach my pistol. Other than that, my first response is to run away.
In this particular instance, there was no need for less than lethal as I would be perfectly justified under AZ law to have shot him had he entered.
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Old March 8, 2007, 11:56 AM   #38
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OJ,

Nice Mastiffs. My family were Mastiff breeders and we travelled the NE show circuit in the spring, summer and fall on the weekends as a child. They are great dogs. My wife likes them but needs a dog with less drool.


Thanks - in years past we did show them but have retired from that. Showed several to obedience titles, though - not easy with the breed. Not that they are hard to train but they respond at their own speed which is a lot slower than Border Collies - for example. Have one trophy for Mastiff high score in obedience - a 200# brindle who would rather clown for the crowd than get trophies.





For them - drool is cool - we soon learned to not try to clean it off the walls (and ceiling) until it dries - then it just flakes off leaving no evidence.

I grew up in the sandhills of western NE a hunter - this in about 1934.



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Old March 8, 2007, 12:34 PM   #39
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One REALLY LUCKY drunk.... people where my family lives get shot when they break windows... Weapon of choice? Double barrel Shotgun.... survival rates are pretty low.
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Old March 8, 2007, 02:16 PM   #40
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those are VERY Cute dogs. Love how that one sits on the couch. with paws on the floor, very nice,,, very nice...

I guess you have to be sure to have a very strong door.
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Old March 8, 2007, 08:27 PM   #41
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Kudos

Lurper:

Thanks for sharing! That was a long thread, and a good one!
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Old March 9, 2007, 11:41 AM   #42
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Good example for those of us who are armed, but have not had a drunk try to kick in the door. I dont think I would have thought to call 911, and would have just shot the poor bastid when he got thru the door. Maybe your post will help me avoid that someday. thanks!

Dang, I don't think I could afford to keep those dogs fed. No money left for ammo. Cool dogs tho.
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Old March 9, 2007, 12:39 PM   #43
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Dang, I don't think I could afford to keep those dogs fed. No money left for ammo. Cool dogs tho.
They are not too bad to feed when fully grown since they tend to enjoy laying around alot. The exception was one male we had that liked to play with a 16 pound bowling ball. He would chase it around the yard, hitting it with his forepaws, and even get it airborne. We took it away and replaced it with a plastic ball when he cracked the foundation on the garage with it.

While growing you tend to feed them with a shovel.
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Old March 10, 2007, 06:33 PM   #44
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They are not too bad to feed when fully grown since they tend to enjoy laying around alot. The exception was one male we had that liked to play with a 16 pound bowling ball. He would chase it around the yard, hitting it with his forepaws, and even get it airborne. We took it away and replaced it with a plastic ball when he cracked the foundation on the garage with it.

While growing you tend to feed them with a shovel.
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That's true. I had a very large lean brindle male (200#+) a few years ago who had his own basketball he carries around in his mouth like most dogs do with tennis balls. One sad day, he bit down a little too hard and punctured it and he just lay there crying with it between his paws slowly dying (losing all the air). I swear, he looked at while whimpering as if to say,"You're a doctor - DO SOMETHING".



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Old March 10, 2007, 09:54 PM   #45
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those are VERY Cute dogs
Cute?

Those are the descendants of the ancient Roman dogs of war! Things may be different now, but the forefathers of those dogs tore the hell out of my barbarian ancestors.

I like mastiffs, but they are not "cute".


Lurper- You don't see any use for pepper-spray? I can understand that beanbags and the like are not much use without a team of fellows ready to jump on the guy while he's down, but the vile spray is different...

Some of us can't brawl like we used to anymore. The same goes for the nimble running skills. You won't be a super-athlete forever either unless you were dipped in the river Styx as a child. Time is not kind and pepperspray works better than elderly fists.
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Old March 10, 2007, 11:11 PM   #46
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I'm no spring chicken at 48 Oldbill, but I figure that if I get jumped I can present a reasonable argument for being in fear for my life. Otherwise, I'll rely on my super sales skills to de-escalate the situation.
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Old March 11, 2007, 12:35 AM   #47
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Cute?

Those are the descendants of the ancient Roman dogs of war! Things may be different now, but the forefathers of those dogs tore the hell out of my barbarian ancestors.

I like mastiffs, but they are not "cute".
Yes - I agree - very lovable but - cute???

It's been more than half century now but I remember being told certain girls thought I was "cute"????

I was a young cowboy who could ride any cayuse (horse) and rope any steer and she thought I was cute??? CUTE was for kittens and puppies and such - and not for us really tough cowboys.

At any rate, it worked out.



Taking care of the property.

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Old March 11, 2007, 12:44 AM   #48
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yes cute cuddley and lovable. I'll go out of the way to give them a doggie bisket treat.
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Old March 29, 2007, 09:05 AM   #49
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Lurper,

Nice one. Glad you are alive to tell the tale.

Certainly hope that the next time something like that happens to me - I can be as cool.
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Old March 29, 2007, 09:44 AM   #50
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Not to hijack my own thread, but adding to what Musketeer said:
I see no need as a civilian for less than lethal response. I studied Aikido for more than 10 years and have extensive military training. However, I see no point in engaging someone in a physical altercation when escape is possible.
Escape is the first goal. At the same time all physical encounters are NOT deadly force encounters. The handbook I cot from my county in NY with my permit was very specific in saying a punch in the face is not grounds for lethal force. It also went on to explain that physical NON-LETHAL force could be used in several instances where lethal force could not be used in resisting a crime.

The bottom line is that a private citizen is allowed to use force in resisting but that force is not always allowed to be lethal. For those cases, in particular those where my immediate escape is not possible, I carry OC. The rowdy drunk on the street, the dog that wants to eat my leg, the youth looking to show off for his friends or girl by being tough without the threat of lethal force, all of these are perfect candiadtes for OC followed by a hasty retreat.

There are also times where you may be legally justified in using Deadly Force but can get away with less than lethal. There are plenty of things one is legally justified in doing (burning flags, calling people morons, etc) but that does not always mean it is the right thing to do.

There was a gentleman (retired teacher?) recently who went to jail in AZ for what I believe was a justifiable shooting. It involved a deragned homeless man and his dogs. We all agree probably the shooter was justified. The jury though did not and an honest man is now in jail. If he had simply OC's the mangy mongrel and the deranged homeless man he would be free today.

Using that gun is a huge gamble. I will if I have to but if I see another way out that will keep anyone from being killed and ensure my survival I will take it EVEN IF SHOOTING IS LEGALLY JUSTIFIED. I want to NOT have to shoot and OC is one more way I can avoid doing so.
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