ND and wallboard penetration

[Capt. Charlie]

Lighten up.

Springmom has proven herself here times over as a responsible and sensible person. But she's people, and people make mistakes. We all do. Providence sometimes dictates the degree of the mistake, and, granted, in this case it was a biggie. Were she flippant about it and unconcerned, rebukes like yours would be well warranted, but she's well aware of the gravity of her error and has taken steps to correct it. It took courage to disclose her mistake here; most wouldn't (and haven't ).

[PythonGuy]

Nevermind

[Ares45]

Springmom,

I think some are being a little hard on you after the fact. Yes, it was a preventable error on your part and on the part of the youngster that could have been prevented. However, we're still human. We learn from our mistakes. A negligent discharge in your own home with your children in the room is a stronger message than any gun safety class. If you didn't learn it then, you're never going to. If you are half way sensable (which I believe you are) it won't happen again.

I open up every gun when I take possesion of it and before I hand it to someone else. Even at the gun store or after I've just watched someone else clear it. Every time. It becomes a habbit. Instill that habbit in your children.

Glad to hear everyone still has all their fingers and toes.

[springmom]

Thank you all for your responses.

I am amazed that anybody thinks this was taken lightly. Oddly, despite the disparaging comments regarding it being a "learning experience", everyone, first and foremost myself, went on to say SOMETHING about it needing to be a learning experience, or there needing to be more firearms education (a learning experience). So we are all agreed that it is, and should be, a learning experience. I hardly mean that in the sense of a light lunch and a PowerPoint presentation in the tea room of a local restaurant! I mean it needs to teach us (our family and YOU AND YOURS) the importance, as someone said, of 100% safety 100% of the time.

In reviewing all that has been said, there is one thing that I think has been grossly overlooked. It is this:

If you think this cannot happen to you, you are wrong.

I did not post this experience because I was looking to be flamed, because I thought it was an interesting way to spend fifteen minutes on the computer, or because I thought it unimportant. I posted it because it is essential that every single gun owner realize the awful truth that no matter how responsible a person you are (and despite some obvious reservations on that point from some folks, I really am) you can fail. Fail to attend for a split second behind the wheel of a car and you can die, or you can kill someone else. Fail to attend for a split second with a firearm and you can die, or you can kill someone else.

No one is immune from making mistakes, no one is immune from distraction and no one is immune from a ND. BTW, for what it is worth, you WILL note that I have referred to it as an ND from the beginning, not an AD. It was a negligent discharge. Period. But if you think it can never happen to you, you are fooling yourself. If you think your mind is so trained that you can never ever ever make a mistake with a firearm, you are fooling yourself. Machines can be programmed to do what they are supposed to do every single time, but we are not machines. It is a humbling and fearful thing to be human instead, but it is the only thing we can be. That is NOT AN EXCUSE. God in Heaven, how ANYBODY on this forum got the idea that I was making any excuses, I DO NOT KNOW.

I am still trying to decide if I erred in sharing this with this group. Perhaps not: there are a few who have said they have learned from it (there's that "learning experience" thing again) and if so, and if it makes everybody stop and check just ONE more time, then I'm glad. On the other hand, I think it's a mistake to admit mistakes in a group in which some simply must rip others to shreds. It happens over and over on this set of forums. Somebody makes a too-general statement, and bam, their credentials and character are confetti. Somebody has hideous spelling and immature writing skills, and same thing occurs. Somebody is stupid enough to share a frightening and dangerous error in the hope that others may learn from that mistake and all they are credited for is knowing how to use a computer and being an irresponsible idiot.

I'll be lurking for awhile at the very least. People who want to continue to shred my character and trumpet my lack of responsibility may do so without my participation. If the purpose of these forums is to pick apart other people, to suggest "punishment" as though its members were judge and jury, then it's not where I need to be anyhow. The moderators may do as they please with this thread, I don't much care.

Merry Christmas, ho ho ho.

Springmom

[PythonGuy]

Nevermind

[Capt. Charlie]

Enough!

[Capt. Charlie]

I've received several requests to re-open this thread, hopefully so that it can receive some positive and constructive response.

I've re-opened it.... for now, but any more personal attacks will get this thread locked down in a heartbeat and the attackers will be dealt with .

[Trip20]

Originally Posted by PythonGuy

I know you like to take me to task for my opinions, but in the case an ND, I don't care what you or others say or think, there in NO excuse.

I'm not taking you to task for your opinion. I think everyone on involved in this thread believes this was a negligent and inexcusable event. I have even said as much:

Originally Posted by Trip20

I don't think she's treating it as a "right-of-passage"... as much as she's thanking the good Lord everyone is alive, uninjured, and learning from this very negligent, and very inexcusable mistake.

What I am doing is suggesting that instead of throwing stones, you can take this thread for what it is: A gun enthusiast who - just like the rest of us - thinks of herself as "safe." She muffed up big time, humbled herself, and admitted to a huge mistake in the hopes that it may remind those of us who may become complacent - to NOT do so.

Originally Posted by PythonGuy

Trip20
My snide remark (which its not) as you call it...

FYI

[XavierBreath]

First off, Springmom, you are not alone. There are four kinds of shooters....

1. Those shooters who have had a ND and learned from it. These are likely the safest shooters on the planet.
2. Those shooters who have had a ND and not learned a darned thing. It doesn't look at all like you fall into this category. You make no excuses, and you accept your share of the responsibility. Make sure your son does the same.
3. Those shooters who have never had a ND because they are darned lucky. These can be the most careless of all.
4. Those shooters who have never had a ND because they are safe, never making an error that costs them.

Now, those of us who fall into category 3 and 4, we really are not sure which category we are in, are we? Be honest. We try to stay in #4, but do we always?

Those shooters who have had a ND know exactly which category they fall into, and frankly so do most other folks.

I can say for myself that I learn from each truthful story such as yours about negligent discharges. Each story makes me a little more careful, a little less complacent, and a little more safe. Then, time erodes that safety until another ND occurs and I read or hear about it.

I saw this phenomenom on the flight deck over and over. We would continue for several months at sea with no injury, and everyone would get cocky, complacent, and then whammo! Somebody gets freighted back to the states in a metal container, hopefully alone. Familiarity breeds complacency. Complacency kills. Your story has immense value here. I appreciate your sharing it. It might be the one story that makes me not just eyeball that chamber, but check the magazine on my shotguns as well. Your story might be the one thing that keeps me from making the same mistake. Thank you for your contribution to my own safety.

I, myself, would rather shoot with someone who has had a ND than some cocky chump that thinks it will never happen to them.

Best regards, now get out there and shoot safe.
XB

[PythonGuy]

Sorry, I didn't mean to spoil the love in, please disregard my comments. I was just responding, not personally attacking.

[rapier144]

Then why did you edit all your posts then.If you was just responding? I ask this because i don't remember what you posted.

[Fremmer]

Dear Springmom:

Thank you for sharing this incident. A lot of us have learned from it. I hope that you don't resort to lurking; I really enjoy your posts (especially in the hunting forum). It took courage to admit your mistake.

I've noticed two interesting things that have occurred in the last 30 days:

1. A lot of people are being rude. There is nothing wrong with disagreement, but there is no need to be rude. I understand what Springmom means when she commented about the attack on her character and credentials. On the Smithy forum, I recently observed a new member calling another member's comment "stupid." Meaningful discussion is good. But this is not a debate class where the goal is to shread someone. Stated otherwise, Springmom did not post this Thread so that she would be treated rudely and/or cross-examined. There are a couple of responses on this Thread that are down-right trollish; and

2. A lot of the veteran members are leaving TFL and going to THR. See observation No. 1.

I don't know how the Mods on TFL can prevent this type of behavior from continuing, but I hope that the decline in civility that I have observed in the last 30 days can be corrected.

[pax]

springmom ~

Thanks for posting your story.

My older children (ages 16, 14, and 12) all read your post along with me and we discussed how it happened. The younger two (ages 10 and 11) came in while we were talking, and so we had them read it too. The boys were quite sobered by it, especially as I was able to point out (because I know this from your posts!) that these were people whose mom had taught them basic firearms safety and everyone involved really knew better than to do what they did.

One of my sons said, "It was really lucky he had the shotgun pointed up --" and another immediately interrupted, "-- that wasn't luck! That was a good habit!"

That gave me a good opportunity to reinforce why we follow all of the Four Rules, all the time. Anyone can make a momentary lapse and break one of the rules, but if you habitually follow all the rules all the time, then one of the other rules will very likely prevent tragedy.

pax

[XavierBreath]

Now.....what I want to know is what was chambered in the gun, and the spread of the shot. Was it a magnum goose load? How much material was penetrated? Were any pigeons on your roof? Do you have pics of the damage?

One point, with a pump shotgun pointed up, it is possible to check the chamber, but impossible to check the magazine without raising the gun over your head. With a pump shotgun, I work the action several, as in 5-6 times before I am satisfied enough to dry fire it. I do this in case of a sticky follower. Brownells and other suppliers have colored aluminum and plastic followers that make magazine corrosion a thing of the past, but also make checking the mag a lot more positive.

[miconoakisland]

Reading Springmom's posts for months now, I have learned that she is thoughtful, caring, articulate and knowledgeable about firearms.

Most of the posts about ND's are from news accounts or rare forum participants, and I always think "what an idiot!", so I was really surprised to see this happen to a regular poster here! When something like this happens to a close neighbor, it always hits home deeper.

That it happened to Springmom shocked me even more!

I've read her account, and read all the posts about it, and from now on I will be even more careful!!

If it can happen to her, it can happen to any of us (whether we think so or not).

Springmom, for all you've been through, and continue to go through, let this Christmas Day be the one in which you hugged your family just a bit tighter, just a bit longer, and to remember just how blessed we are everyday to have them around.

[USP45usp]

No matter how much you think you know, there is always something else to learn.

We can learn either by making the mistakes ourselves or by the mistakes of others. Mistakes will happen or else it wouldn't be called life. If everyone was perfect all of the time then the world would be a boring place and there would be no need for boards.

As I've said before, this lesson has now been learned by all of us that have read this thread. We've learned something about letting your guard down just for a split second.

And I thank Springmom for sharing this lesson so that I don't have to make it myself. If it hadn't been her, it would have been someone else. The only problem is that someone else may not have shared and thus helped to teach us.

I am highly upset that Springmom feels that she needs to lurk and not feel comfortable with joining in on the discussions. Her input as well as her help has been nothing but fantastic and eagerly enjoyed.

I think that we all need to sit back and reevaluate our own selves before we start to judge others. Myself included.

Wayne

[kesserman]

I have been floating around the forum for a few weeks now. So much so, that I have managed to compile my list of 'The Usual Suspects'.

Capt Charlie
XavierBreath
USP45usp
pax
Sir William
azredhawk44
Wildalaska
and springmom

Just to name a few. I've studied your posts, and have learned from them.

So, like others, when I read that this happened to springmom, I felt as if it happened to someone I knew. I'd read her posts, and my first reaction was - "I can't believe that happened to her!"

I think it's a mistake to admit mistakes in a group in which some simply must rip others to shreds. It happens over and over on this set of forums. Somebody makes a too-general statement, and bam, their credentials and character are confetti. Somebody has hideous spelling and immature writing skills, and same thing occurs. Somebody is stupid enough to share a frightening and dangerous error in the hope that others may learn from that mistake and all they are credited for is knowing how to use a computer and being an irresponsible idiot.

I can't believe that any responsible gun owner would use this forum to talk down to someone like 'springmom'.

Forget what she 'should have done' or even what 'she should do'. That's between herself, her family (and her roofing contractor). All she can do now is share her story so people can learn from it. However, after receiving the response she did from some of you, it wouldn't surprise me if some people stopped posting all together.

As a new shooter, I look for these stories. I want to know what happened, and why. Any responsible organization conducts a 'post-mortem' of events so that they can learn from them, and change procedure if necessary (Doctors, Police, NTSB, the Military). They understand that these incidents can provide invaluable in teaching.

ND's are not inevitable, they are intolerable, and everything needs to be done to prevent them. Stories like springmom's help.

The only thing worse than doing something stupid is knowing it was stupid before you did it. It's not my place to say this, but I will - No anonymous post, positive or negative, can compare with how angry she must be with herself.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Hope things are well.

[L Puckett]

SpringMom,

All I can say is, Whew girl, that is gonna cost. New roof, new sheetrock and two pairs of mens drawers I would guess.

Once everyones heart returns to normal, say in a month, as a thought I would pass to you, don't even mention or think of a safety class (I assume the young man has already been there). Class rooms are just that. An AD comes from "no thinking and just doing". Be it in a too relaxed mode with a firearm, due to lack of knowledge, or a heated situation, the brain does not always coincide with muscles.

I have used this and taught this method. Leave a couple of weapons out (unloaded) and become a tricky DI, talk to your son about one of the weapons, when he picks it up allow him to handle it for a minute. Then explain, you pickup the weapon, open the action, insert finger in the chamber to clear check, leave/lock action open. Handing to the other person requires the open chamber toward the receiving person. When receiving you insert finger into chamber to check. Always do this.

Follow where I am going. You teach him "procedures and muscle memory". Then start the pickup training. The "index finger" is always kept straight until the weapon is brought to bear on the intended target. Anytime a weapon is handled, watch his finger. The simple statement of "finger" will get his attention. Teach him to feel comfortable with the finger on the side of the frame. It has other benefits too, not related to this discussion.

If you do this in planned sessions like taking every gun out of the safe and passing them around, and a little trickery (gun laying out, and talking about the gun) to reinforce the learning it won't take long before the automatic movements are ingrained. Remember, we learn by doing and you are the Drill Instructor (DI).

This may seem a bit, over done, but I will say it is done this way in most LE academys and the military in most all countries. It has proven it self.

The best of luck to you and have a Merry Christmas, and may the sun shine on your holy roof (until the roofers get there),
LP

[Mark54g]

I mentioned this before in a thread I posted much earlier. I had a "near discharge" but it has opened my eyes and I hope to never have anything as bad in the future. I did not fire a cartridge, but instead, while cleaning my beretta neos, forgot step 1 (engage the safety).

As I was taking it apart, with the slide and barrel off the weapon, I squirted some breakfree into the action and proceeded to wiggle the trigger to get it worked in there (as usual) however without the safety the striker spring launched the striker. I found it and the spring and put it back where it belonged and then noticed that I had just put a hole in the glass of my monitor.

That made me REALLY mad and also scared about the fact that I had been too complacent around this gun and that I should not handle it unless I have my wits about me. Distraction and complacency are NOT good around guns. It's like mixing up sandpaper with toilet paper. Its going to be a very uncomfortable situation.


Be safe,
Mark

[springmom]

I appreciate all the feedback, and I cannot tell you how glad I am that some of you sat and read the post of our collective stupidity to your children so they can learn. That was my hope in posting it in the first place, and I'm glad it was useful.

Final monetary damage, except for wallboard and paint for the interior, is $275. It's a small enough hole that the contractor will put flashing over the hole and then shingle over that.

Somebody asked for pix...I think I'll pass on that. :barf: However, for those who were interested in the actual mechanics of the thing: it was SureShot heavy dove load impacting the wallboard of the ceiling at probably 6-8 feet away. It put a 1x3 inch (estimating here) hole in the wallboard and roughly a 2.5-3 inch hole in the roof. The ND occurred not 10 feet from the outside wall (our bathroom is on the northeast corner of our house) and so the roof slants down there to where there is very little space between the ceiling of the room and the actual subroofing material. Had there been more space between, IDK what would have happened...bigger hole or no hole at all.

Would it work for home defense? Well, yeah, that would put quite a hole in somebody (as we have all discussed quite sufficiently I think). Will it go through wallboard? YES. And that was actually the other point I had meant to raise regarding this: a blast of dove load... not even buckshot... does a pretty good job on not just wallboard but plywood. That being the case, the same rules need to apply to shooting a BG with a shotgun as they would with your handguns. No, the shot won't travel 300 yards and hit the schoolbus full of nuns that would just happen to be going by your house at that exact moment (thank you, Mr. Murphy, for your law) but the idea that backstop isn't important because it's a shotgun has just been disproven to the tune of $275.

Again, thank you to those who learned from this (besides us!)

Be safe, keep your fingers OFF THE TRIGGER, and have a Merry Christmas.

Springmom, off to play SANTA again! and again. and again.....

[Harley Quinn]

Some of the posters are that said a dove load at 10 feet would not injure a man wearing a denim coat or some other such nonsence. I especially would like to hear from Lead Counsel.

I PM'd him but he does not want me to communicate with him anymore.
Must be over the disagreement we had about this very subject and his position that a muscle builder would not be affected. :barf:

Thanks for the information SpringMom and I hope you can have a Happy Holiday you deserve it.
Hope Santa brings you an NRA cert for a class.

Harley

[Trip20]

Originally Posted by PythonGuy

Sorry, I didn't mean to spoil the love in, please disregard my comments. I was just responding, not personally attacking.

You mean like this:

(Image removed by Capt Charlie. The "P" in "PM" stands for "Private" )

Originally Posted by Capt Charlie

I've received several requests to re-open this thread, hopefully so that it can receive some positive and constructive response.

I've re-opened it.... for now, but any more personal attacks will get this thread locked down in a heartbeat and the attackers will be dealt with .

Yep, the thread should be safe for now. Apparently he's taken his nonesense to PM instead.

[XavierBreath]

Yep.

Hey! We're going to go out shooting today. Wanna come?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Easy to be a rude critic when you are under a pen name on the internet. Anyway, Springmom - good for sharing and stay in the game.

A dove load at 10 ft. won't hurt a muscle builder? Must have been a head shot. Don't worry what Leadcounsel says - he doesn't have much credibility with his strange set of autodidactic tactics.

[Capt. Charlie]

I think this one's about run its course. There's not a whole lot more that can be gained from it, and it appears that strong feelings remain; openly or covertly doesn't matter.

I do thank those of you that have worked to keep this thread constructive and postitive, and some good lessons have been learned here.

Thank you, Springmom, for sharing a lesson that we all should never get enough of .