Would This FFL Holder Lose its License for THIS? - Page 2

69MachOne · February 11, 2010, 07:33 PM

WOW! A lot to digest in this thread. We have full auto AR, legalities, LEO, USPS, FFL holders, Internet sales, Internet buyers, divorce, doorbusters, Rogue letter carriers........ Going out for popcorn to see how this plays out!

**44 AMP** · February 16, 2010, 03:08 AM

We are quick to jump to assume it has been illegaly modified, and probably it will turn out to be the case, but it just might be simply broken. It isn't the expected result of a "broken" safety, but I have seen some strange things happen over the years.

We don't know exactly what is broken, or how, so at this point, who can say for sure? I have seen an M16A1 fire full auto with the selector in the semi position, and NO broken parts! It was misassembled, but not broken!

All the FFL knew was that the safety lever moved further that it ought to. He apparently assumed it was broken, and passed this info along to the buyer. IS it the dealer's responsibility to know and understand the inner workings and misworking of every gun he sells? Yes, its nice for us when they do, but is it their responsibility? I don't think so.

There may be a law covering sale of an item that is known to be unsafe (like a car with brakes that don't work), but how, and if this applies to the pawn broker, I don't know.

I have seen an FAL whose lever would go all the way to what would be the full auto position. There was no full auto marking on the reciever. The gun would not fire full auto. IT did not have full auto parts. Only the safety lever moved more than expected. Completely legal rifle, just had an odd quirk.

A full function check of the AR in question might have revealed the capability to go full auto without shooting it, but a lot of people, FFLs included, don't know or understand how to do that.

sixgun67 · February 16, 2010, 10:44 AM

For added opinion, I feel that the pawn shop should not be held liable in any way. If we look at it for exactly what it is, pawn shop received what they believed to be a broken rifle, and sold it as such, with warning to purchaser to fix. Common sense to me screams that if pawn shop had any idea as to rifle's auto capabilities (and if it were, even the pawn shops ability to legally posses/transfer it?), then it would have been price jacked many times more than the 500 bucks, and the paperwork/fees handled. As it stands, money is the only factor behind business. If pawn shop knew, why would he shaft himself for a price lower than most ARs sell for used? Hell, pawn owner would be kicking some salesman's butt and firing him for not knowing what he had and losing multiple times what the sale value actually was, I'd figure. Just my opinion, from looking at it in it's simplest form. Out of curiosity, what fair price would a real full-auto AR bring in todays world? Would have to be many thousands, my guess. That is my logic.

**44 AMP** · February 17, 2010, 10:27 PM

I find that legally the pawn shop IS on the hook, should the Feds decide to reel them in.

Under the law, as written, is does not matter if they knew the gun was full auto. They did sell it. They are not licenced to sell full auto guns. They sold it without following the NFA process. They sold to a person who was not cleared under the NFA process. The tax was not paid. IT happened, and the reasons are unimportant to the law. They are legally liable.

Now, the feds may choose not to prosecute, based on the circumstances of the case, they do haved that option. But they also can prosecute, and very likely, win a conviction.

IF the rifle is not a conversion, and in fact is broken (malfuctioning), as the law is written, the Feds still can prosecute. The law does not have an exception for malfunctioning firearms. However, truly malfuctioning firearms prosecutions usually have a tough time in court. Doesn't mean they don't try it sometimes, though. IF it is clearly and obviously a malfuctioning firearm, they usually don't prosecute, BUT they could.

A/C Guy · February 20, 2010, 08:35 PM

Quote:

If they can convince someone they did not know a broken safety would allow it to go fully automatic, they would probably be safe.

Sorry, but that is completely incorrect. BATF will prosecute the owner of the weapon as well as the pawn shop for failure to complete the proper paperwork and failure to pay the stamp tax.

If that happened in Az, no one at the range would have given him a second look because we have so many full autos at our ranges.

February 11, 2010, 07:33 PM	#26
69MachOne Member Join Date: April 10, 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 56	WOW! A lot to digest in this thread. We have full auto AR, legalities, LEO, USPS, FFL holders, Internet sales, Internet buyers, divorce, doorbusters, Rogue letter carriers........ Going out for popcorn to see how this plays out! __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin Last edited by 69MachOne; February 11, 2010 at 07:41 PM.

February 16, 2010, 03:08 AM	#27
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Maybe its really freakin' broken?! We are quick to jump to assume it has been illegaly modified, and probably it will turn out to be the case, but it just might be simply broken. It isn't the expected result of a "broken" safety, but I have seen some strange things happen over the years. We don't know exactly what is broken, or how, so at this point, who can say for sure? I have seen an M16A1 fire full auto with the selector in the semi position, and NO broken parts! It was misassembled, but not broken! All the FFL knew was that the safety lever moved further that it ought to. He apparently assumed it was broken, and passed this info along to the buyer. IS it the dealer's responsibility to know and understand the inner workings and misworking of every gun he sells? Yes, its nice for us when they do, but is it their responsibility? I don't think so. There may be a law covering sale of an item that is known to be unsafe (like a car with brakes that don't work), but how, and if this applies to the pawn broker, I don't know. I have seen an FAL whose lever would go all the way to what would be the full auto position. There was no full auto marking on the reciever. The gun would not fire full auto. IT did not have full auto parts. Only the safety lever moved more than expected. Completely legal rifle, just had an odd quirk. A full function check of the AR in question might have revealed the capability to go full auto without shooting it, but a lot of people, FFLs included, don't know or understand how to do that. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 17, 2010, 10:27 PM	#29
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Afterm some discussion and some research... I find that legally the pawn shop IS on the hook, should the Feds decide to reel them in. Under the law, as written, is does not matter if they knew the gun was full auto. They did sell it. They are not licenced to sell full auto guns. They sold it without following the NFA process. They sold to a person who was not cleared under the NFA process. The tax was not paid. IT happened, and the reasons are unimportant to the law. They are legally liable. Now, the feds may choose not to prosecute, based on the circumstances of the case, they do haved that option. But they also can prosecute, and very likely, win a conviction. IF the rifle is not a conversion, and in fact is broken (malfuctioning), as the law is written, the Feds still can prosecute. The law does not have an exception for malfunctioning firearms. However, truly malfuctioning firearms prosecutions usually have a tough time in court. Doesn't mean they don't try it sometimes, though. IF it is clearly and obviously a malfuctioning firearm, they usually don't prosecute, BUT they could. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 16, 2010, 10:44 AM	#28
sixgun67 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2009 Location: New Philadelphia, Oh Posts: 238	For added opinion, I feel that the pawn shop should not be held liable in any way. If we look at it for exactly what it is, pawn shop received what they believed to be a broken rifle, and sold it as such, with warning to purchaser to fix. Common sense to me screams that if pawn shop had any idea as to rifle's auto capabilities (and if it were, even the pawn shops ability to legally posses/transfer it?), then it would have been price jacked many times more than the 500 bucks, and the paperwork/fees handled. As it stands, money is the only factor behind business. If pawn shop knew, why would he shaft himself for a price lower than most ARs sell for used? Hell, pawn owner would be kicking some salesman's butt and firing him for not knowing what he had and losing multiple times what the sale value actually was, I'd figure. Just my opinion, from looking at it in it's simplest form. Out of curiosity, what fair price would a real full-auto AR bring in todays world? Would have to be many thousands, my guess. That is my logic.