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Old August 15, 2017, 01:50 PM   #1
baddarryl
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Ammo or Rifle? Garand Question

Hi all. With Greek surplus from the CMP I am getting light strikes every 20 rounds or so. I can re chamber the round and it will fire. Is this indicative of this ammo or an issue with my Garand. Both are new to me and the Greek is all I have fired in it so far. Head stamp is HXP 76. Let me add that this is a Service Grade CMP rifle that I cleaned and lubed according to garandandgear.com directions. Maybe 100 rounds since then.

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Old August 15, 2017, 02:26 PM   #2
Dave P
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"I can re chamber the round and it will fire."

Always use a clip. Always let the bolt slam closed on its own. Be aware that if something is cattywhumpus, slam fires can occur. Always point in safe direction when loading a clip or chambering a round.

Check the firing pin, should move freely inside the bolt.
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Old August 15, 2017, 02:31 PM   #3
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It's not your rifle. The HXP 76 unreliability thing is a known issue from 2012 or earlier. Something to do with the powder.
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Old August 15, 2017, 04:33 PM   #4
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I have never had any problems with 76 HXP and have never heard anyone else having any issues either
Its more than likely a rifle issue
Describe exatcly what your rifle is doing. Light strikes on all rounds, or occasionally. First round in enbloc, last round, be very detailed

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Old August 15, 2017, 08:05 PM   #5
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Usually about the 6-7th round of the clip. Only every few clips. It chambers the round, pull trigger, nothing. Evidence of strike on primer, maybe light, not sure. Re chamber round, boom. It has only happened twice maybe. Not sure.
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Old August 16, 2017, 05:50 AM   #6
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Have you noticed is the bolt all the way forward, completely in battery when it does this?
Since it is happening towards the end of the enbloc it very well could be the op rod spring needs replaced. Spring is weak and not pushing op rod all the way forward
The spring should be free from bends and kinks, no flat spots and measure 19- 20 1/4 inches long
If you do replace it stay away from Wolffe extra power op rod springs as they can cause short stroking
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Old August 16, 2017, 07:20 AM   #7
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I've fired thousands of Greek HXP and have had zero issues with light hits or FTF.

First, make sure the rifle is going completely into battery.

Take your bolt out and disassemble it, clean all the old grease off the the firing pin and firing pin hold.

Any Garand owner, shooter really should have a copy of Hatcher's "Book of the Garand" There is an excellent Trouble Shooting Guide.

Quote:
Always use a clip. Always let the bolt slam closed on its own. Be aware that if something is cattywhumpus, slam fires can occur. Always point in safe direction when loading a clip or chambering a round.
Not buying that one at all. Every since the Garand came out, its has been fired by single loading without a clip in competition. 3/5ths of the rounds fired in High Power is required to be fired via single loading. 2/3rds of the rounds fired in the Course A, CMP Garand Matches are required to be fired via single loading.

I also question the gun related "slam fires" The M1 Garand's are designed to eleminate slam fires. When the bolt goes to the chamber the "L" shaped firing pin is held back until the bolt pivots, and the locking lugs lock into place.

This is covered in Hatcher's book. Its also demistrated in the CMP Advanced Maint. Course on building the Garand.





This is from the pamphlet the CMP sends out with the Garand/


Back to the FTF. Again, its either the ammo, or the cleanliness of the bolt/chamber. If its the ammo, chances are if wouldnt fire on the second attempt.
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Old August 16, 2017, 06:57 PM   #8
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cattywhampus

Kraigwy has likely more time on the M1 than many of us combined on this forum, and I don't rally want to dispute him. Certainly single loading is done on the M1 plenty, as Kraig has described.

But Kraig, don't you think that out of spec ammo/primer , a worn firing pin or the cam surface that bears on the pin "L" can contribute to slamfires? I think that was more DaveP's point, not so much that the rifle could not/ should not be single loaded.
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Old August 16, 2017, 07:00 PM   #9
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Ive had surplus ammo that would fire on the 2nd attempt after a 1st attempt failure. We are talking about 40+ year old ammo after all. I've also had commercial ammo (Remington Core-Lokt) and some really old (42' or 48') surplus not discharge at all. Never a pattern so I always blamed the ammo. I'm no expert though, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Old August 17, 2017, 09:55 AM   #10
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1st thing to do is take apart the bolt and clean out the firing pin channel, extractor, and ejector. Don't lube or grease the firing pin.

2nd thing to do is to thoroughly clean and inspect the trigger group to ensure you don't have a damaged, bent, or incorrectly installed spring. Then lube it correctly.

I've shot some 5K of Greek surplus from both of my M1 Garands and never once had a missfire.
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Old August 17, 2017, 10:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
But Kraig, don't you think that out of spec ammo/primer
Yes primers not fully seated may cause a slam fire. Thats true with any rifle.

ALWAYS seat primers flush. Always check reloads, regardless of what rifle or handgun you're loading for.
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Old August 17, 2017, 11:59 AM   #12
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One little detail that is unlikely,but possible.
Check to see your ejector plunger is working freely. If its crunchy or sticky in there(like I said,unlikely) the extra resistance could foul the last degree of full lockup.

If it feels crunchy,the tool that is the tee-handle in the cleaning kit works great for bo assembly/disassembly,but its good if someone shows you how.
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Old August 17, 2017, 12:05 PM   #13
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"...never heard anyone else having any issues either..." Do a net search for HXP 76 ammo. Supposedly just the 76 and 77, not all HXP.
"...should have a copy of Hatcher's "Book of the Garand"..." For the M1, yes. Hatcher's Notebook for everybody.
Same troubleshooting info is in the TM's and FM's found for free at http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/. Note the need for the provided UM & PW.
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Old August 17, 2017, 02:34 PM   #14
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Kraigwy is correct,as usual, in his report. There is one other phenomenon that plagued the M1. The famous 7th round stoppage occurred on early production rifles. Eventually corrected before the majority of M1's were made there are still the occasional early rifle that may exhibit the problem. As the OP stated the "6th or 7th round" this makes me feel the round is not fully chambered with the bolt not completely rotated.
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Old August 18, 2017, 07:52 AM   #15
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My receiver serial number indicates SA 1942. What the guts are I am not sure.
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Old August 18, 2017, 02:50 PM   #16
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It's definitely time to seek a the advice of an experienced M1 armorer.
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Old August 18, 2017, 03:24 PM   #17
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If you PM me I am sure I can walk you through things to check to fix your rifle. Garands are not that hard to diagnose
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Old August 21, 2017, 12:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
Quote:
Always use a clip. Always let the bolt slam closed on its own. Be aware that if something is cattywhumpus, slam fires can occur. Always point in safe direction when loading a clip or chambering a round.
Not buying that one at all. Every since the Garand came out, its has been fired by single loading without a clip in competition. 3/5ths of the rounds fired in High Power is required to be fired via single loading. 2/3rds of the rounds fired in the Course A, CMP Garand Matches are required to be fired via single loading.

I also question the gun related "slam fires" The M1 Garand's are designed to eleminate slam fires. When the bolt goes to the chamber the "L" shaped firing pin is held back until the bolt pivots, and the locking lugs lock into place.

This is covered in Hatcher's book. Its also demistrated in the CMP Advanced Maint. Course on building the Garand.


This is from the pamphlet the CMP sends out with the Garand/

Lets start off with the definition of nonsense:
* Definition of Nonsense:

How to Speak Money, by Lanchester


Pg 86 Bull-CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- versus nonsense

Nonsense is different: it’s worse. It consists of things that are actively false, and at its worst, of things that are just not true but can’t possibly be true. It is rarer than Bull-CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- but much more toxic, and it is the difference between someone exaggerating a bit because he is trying to sell you something and someone who is consciously lying to you, or who is so far out of touch with reality that he does not know he’s lying.

The lore, that these rifles only slamfire due to a high primer or a worn out receiver bridge is total nonsense .

The first thing to understand, this mechanism controls the frequency of slamfires by primer sensitivity. This is assuming there are no mechanical issues such as broken parts or malfunctioning trigger mechanisms. The Garand mechanism does not have a positive firing pin block, but then, I don’t know of any automatic rifle that has a positive firing pin block. For the Garand mechanism, the so called "safety bridge" is not a “safety bridge” at all. That term is a creation from the 1960's. The receiver bridge is a firing pin retraction cam. It is there to pull the firing pin back, on extraction, so the firing pin is positively pulled from the primer and not broken during rotation. The idea that it is some sort of a safety bridge comes around in the early 60's. The receiver bridge, AKA firing pin retraction cam, is not a positive means of preventing the firing pin from touching the primer, as it is encountered by the firing pin tang just at cam down.


The M1 carbine firing pin retraction cam is functionally similar to the Garand, but easier to understand.




Basically the bolt goes back, then it goes forward, and then it cams shut. Looking at the totality of the cycle, you can see the deceptiveness of the explanation that Kraigway was taught, and is repeating. That so called safety bridge is nothing of the kind. There is absolutely nothing restraining the forward movement of that free floating firing pin for at least three inches of travel, until the last thousandths of an inch of cam down. Until them, the firing pin is totally free to rebound off the primer.






Just prior to cam down, if there is bolt bounce, there is nothing to prevent the firing pin from rebounding off the primer. If there is bounce in the system, the firing pin tang totally clears the retraction cam at the pencil mark.



If a slamfire occurs with the rifle partially in battery the effects run the gamut from benign to busted stocks and parts. Typically what happens is nothing but a startled shooter. But, in other cases, the timing is messed up, the action opens when breech pressure is too high, and rims can be ripped off, operating rods dismount, maybe case heads burst, problems that shooters would attribute to an overpressure cartridge.

This system relies principally on primer insensitivity to prevent inbattery and out of battery slamfires. The so called “safety bridge” is not a positive firing pin block and is easily defeated by long, fat, cartridges. The whole concept of a "safety bridge" or that this mechanism positively blocks the firing pin, is a misdirection of an inherent design risk. This design has more out of battery slamfire reports than all other designs combined. The Garand type action also has more inbattery slamfire reports than any other, but this may be due to the number of Garand type actions in use.


It is my considered opinion, after studying this issue for several decades, that the theory that "only high primers and your worn out receiver bridge" cause slamfires is an Army cover up of an inherent design defect of the M1 Garand mechanism. The originators of this nonsense came from the Army Ordnance Bureau, but in print, it was the gun writers of the American Rifleman. Like all large organizations, the Army cannot admit to fault. I recommend any who want to understand the mind of the Corporation read the book The Corporation, the Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power: https://www.amazon.com/Corporation-P.../dp/0743247469 I have concluded that all large organizations have the same personality traits as Corporations, maybe different incentives, but they all act the same: They exhibit a practiced superficial charm, developed to manipulate others, they actually don’t have empathy. They are amoral, use people for their own ends and discard them when they are no longer useful. They are grandiose, self centered, cannot admit wrong and will not accept responsibility for their own failures. They also have an unfortunate history of shooting the messenger of bad news.

Anyone remember this? It was recent.




Both the National Rifle Association and their Gunwriters had lucrative associations with the US Army. In the early 1960’s, the Army was contributing an amount that was equal to about 25% of the NRA operating budget. The NRA was created just after the American Civil War to serve the interests of the US Army, specifically in developing marksmanship skills in the civilian population. Over the years, prominent individuals of the Army Ordnance Bureau retired to the NRA, probably receiving in compensation from the NRA, an amount in five years that exceeded their entire 30 year Army income. These technical experts undoubtedly were drawing an additional income consulting for the Army and therefore, for the NRA and their gun writers, it was financially critical to maintain good relations with the Military Industrial Complex.

I believe the NRA and their gun writer staff made a conscious and financially rationale decision not to jeopardize their relationship with the Army or private industry by exposing the design faults of Garand mechanism. It was in no one’s economic interest to educate the public about the propensity of the mechanism to slamfire, given a sensitive enough primer. Instead, the entire cast of characters told the public that the only causes of slamfires were shooter’s negligence: that is, high primers and your worn out receiver bridge. None of them ever raised the issue of primer sensitivity, probably due to the fact, it was not until 1999 that military primers were offered to civilian reloaders. Until then, the only primers available to reloaders were the more sensitive commercial primers. Educating the public about primer sensitivity and the sensitivity of commercial primers would have the effect of antagonizing the commercial gun industry, not only the gun manufacturers, but also the ammunition manufacturers, both of which provides advertising revenue to the magazine and organization.


Human are so mentally messed up, and it is all individual, and there are 6 billion people on this planet, it is impossible to know exactly their motivation and why they do things. People you assume to be rationale, and yet, do they actually believe the nonsense they are peddling? Take for example the people who work for the Tobacco Institute. This is an additive drug that has no known positive benefits, kills half the people who use it, and yet over the decades, if not centuries, you will find extremely intelligent people who work for the industry absolutely deigning its additive and harmful nature. A more recent example is the National Football League’s denial over concussions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Denial I saw the program, I heard the NFL Officials, maybe they actually believe what they are saying.

I think for the Garand mechanism the fan boys practice pathological self deceit and that maybe due to a number of factors. One is first exposure bias. Advertisers know when an authority figure explains something, you believe them. Even when later confronted with over whelming information that the information/advice it is false, people secretly believe what they heard first. I know this to be true as it took years and angst to figure out that greased cases and greased bullets do not raise pressures dangerously. This one was something that Gen Hatcher claims in Hatcher's Notebook. Even when I had over whelming evidence by actually shooting thousands of greased rounds and greased bullets, without problems, I know that I still thought there might be the possibility that Hatcher was right. At some point, you have to go beyond the authorities you respect and realize, they are the product of their times and environment. They won't be right in everything.

So, due to first exposure bias, when you have a medical Doctor advising you to smoke, you will believe it is safe up to the point that lung cancer makes you reconsider the practice.



I think another part of the self deceit of fan boys is the romanticism that goes with old service rifles. No one wants to cast stones at their beloved thunderstick. Maybe another is just that some are control freaks who cannot accept that some things are beyond their control. Regardless of what the shooter or reloader does, if there is a sensitive enough primer under the firing pin, the mechanism will slamfire. You can see in many threads, fan boys want to believe the mechanism is perfect and without fault and will say and do anything to get back to perfection. I think some folks are in denial over this.

What we do know, is that the NRA and its gunwriters, put a lot of nonsense in print about the Garand mechanism being perfectly safe and that slamfires are all do to shooter fault. The last American Rifleman technical expert to do this, the "Prime Davidian" explicitly wrote in a Dope Bag article that it is inherently impossible for the Garand design to slamfire. Instead, slamfires in the Garand are only due to reloader misconduct. That is "high primers and your worn out receiver bridge". I call this whole religion Davidianism, because, it is a play on the guy’s name, and if you follow it, you will go up in smoke and flame! What is totally amazing about the Prime Davidian, decades, and I mean decades before he wrote that final Dope Bag article, he was the Government Expert at the Ichord hearings in Congress. This guy testified before Congress!. He was also the lead on the investigation about slamfires in the M16. He is the one who wrote the report and set the primer sensitivity specifications to reduce the frequency of slamfires in the M16. But decades later, slamfires have nothing to do with primer sensitivity and the Garand mechanism, By omission, primer sensitivity does not exist as a concept. Nothing the Prime Daviadian wrote for the NRA contains any mention of primer sensitivity. Back when he was writing his nonsense, the internet did not exist, Gun writers and Gun Magazines controlled the discourse and information released to the public. Since the internet and forums though their monopoly has been breached, but no in print magazine will ever publish an analysis about the inherent slamfire design defect that exists in Garands, M1 Carbines, Mini 14's, or M1a's. It might affect some advertisers sales. Prior to the internet, no matter what nonsense the Prime Davidian put in print, he had zero expectations that anything he said would ever be contradicted in public. I don't know his personnel motives, but in the 1960's literature, when I first come across Davidianism in the American Rifleman, the Government designed M14 is in a fight to the death with the Colt M16. It is my considered opinion that at the time, you would expect the Army to deign any inherent defects with the Garand mechanism, because that would have supported the M16 faction. The NRA was firmly in the M14 court, a number of the writers for the American Rifleman had been involved with the adoption of the M14 while they were in the service. The American Rifleman printed articles in support of the M14, the articles are very interesting from an historical perspective, but it is quite certain the NRA had taken sides in the great M16 versus M14 debate. As for slamfires, the NRA in print consensus was that any and all problems were due to shooter misconduct., there was nothing peculiar about the design that would create the condition for a slamfire. The "high primer" theory places all blame on the shooter, and zero percent on the design of the rifle. As it turned out, by the middle 1960’s the M14 was canceled, with drawn as a service rifle, in 1968 Springfield Armory closed and the Secretary of Defense had the NRA punted out of the Pentagon. But until the middle 1990’s, the M1a continued to be the most popular “service rifle” in NRA highpower competition. I earned my Distinguished and a Regional Gold with my M1a, I have a lot of fondness for the old rifle, but I do everything I can with my reloading practices to reduce the risk of an in battery, or out of battery slamfire. I do this with knowledge, understanding the risks of the mechanism, and understanding that they are real.

We know through examination of physical samples, that the Army lightened the first firing pins for the M1 Garand. This was to reduce the inertial impact energy of the firing pin, which would reduce the potential of a slamfire. The only reason the Army would do this, is because early Garands slamfired. We know this happened for M16’s, and all that information was kept classified until recently. But since the documents were declassified, we know that the early M16’s had slamfire problems. The Army lightened the firing pin, just as they had done with the M1 Garand, and the Army specified a less sensitive primer for the 5.56 mm cartridge, the #41 mil spec primer. We know this, but at no time did the authorities ever tell us this.

We can be sure that the Army Ordnance Department, including the Prime Davidian, knew about why Garands slamfired, and why M14’s slamfired. We can be sure they knew about slamfires in their rifles because some of their own test reports survived:

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Old August 21, 2017, 12:35 PM   #19
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We know the Italian modified the bolts of their BM59’s (I think, could be a Garand bolt) with a firing pin spring. They obviously had some slamfires. Roland Beaver will modify a GI bolt and have it back to the owner within a week. I had this modification performed for the bolt on my match 30-06 Garand.



These rifles have been slamfiring in battery and out of battery since the day they left the factory. Thankfully the incident rate is low, but it happens. By not fully disclosing the inherent design faults of these mechanism, Davidianism promotes the most risky behaviors. Such as neck sizing and standard sizing dies. With this mechanism, the absolute most likely set of conditions to create an out of battery slamfire are fat/long cases and sensitive primers. If that firing pin rebounds off a sensitive primer the cartridge may ignite. If this mechanism has to crunch fit a long/fat case to the chamber, the bolt stops. When the bolt stops or hesitates going forward, the firing pin moves forward and rebounds off the primer. If the primer is sensitive enough, an out of battery slamfire will result. It is the rare Garand or M1a that does not show firing pin dimples on a chambered round. That ought to be a clue that this mechanism does not have a positive firing pin block.

Incidentally, even after the Roland Beaver modification, I still get firing pin dents:



I reexamined this thread, somewhere I got the idea that these cases had been neck sized, maybe I was told that in a personnel message. Anyway, this rifle slamfired out of battery and cracked the receiver heel. Luckily no one was injured.



Any service rifle that has a free floating firing pin can slamfire with a sensitive enough primer. I have found slamfire reports for every service rifle mechanism with a free floating firing pin. The use of commercial factory ammunition or reloads that use soft or more sensitive primer increase the risk of slamfires. The probability of a slamfire always exists because primer sensitivity varies within the lot. You can reduce the probability of a slamfire by using primers that are on the average less sensitive , but you cannot eliminate the possibility of an extra sensitive primer being in the lot of primers you purchased. Sensitive primers are rare, but they exist.

My advice loading for a Garand is:

1. Full length resize in a small base die. Set up die with a Wilson type case gage and size to gage minimum.

2. Trim cases

3. Clean primer pockets, ream to depth

4. Prime all cases by hand, verify that all primers are below the case head, and use the least sensitive primers you can find. (CCI #34’s, or mil spec primers)

5. Use IMR4895/AA2495/H4895 powders.

6. Seat the bullets to magazine depth, no longer than 3.3” inches for the 30-06, no longer than 2.8 for the 308, shorter is fine.

When loading, load from the magazine, use a sled, or follow this Army guidance:



What the Army is telling the user, is to lower the bolt as much as possible and get your hand out of the way in case the weapon still slamfires. Lowering the bolt reduces the speed of the bolt and thus the inertial impact energy of the firing pin. It is obvious, they understood. Even if Davidians can’t and won’t see it, there is no reason you cannot examine your mechanism and determine for yourself, whether the claims Davidians make are supported by the hardware. The first thing to do is take your bolt out and shake it. Notice that the firing pin is free to move within the bolt. Go from there.
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Old August 21, 2017, 12:59 PM   #20
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If single fear of single loading/slam fires bother you, they make an e-clip for single loading.

https://www.amazon.com/AmmoGarand-Ga...ords=m1+eclips

It does work, insert the clip, the the round can be inserted in the action much like single loading a M14.

The round sets there until you pull back and release the op rod. It also eliminates the possibility of getting a M1 Thumb.

I use one in matches mainly to keep the bolt out of the chamber until I'm ready to shoot. After a period of shooting the chamber gets hot, and depending on how long the rounds sets there, it increased the temp of the powder and effects velocity, and impact of the round.
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Old August 22, 2017, 01:28 PM   #21
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I have never seen a Garand slamfire, but I have seen plenty of AR's, and almost always it was a Winchester small rifle primer. I saw one Wolf small rifle (not magnum) slamfire. Now I have been around 1000's of AR's on the firing lines, and maybe a couple of 1000 Garands, and the Garand shooters mostly use milsurp, not handloads.

Only slamfire I ever had , was with a pump AK .223, chambering a factory Federal round. That thing slams forward like a mother. Lucky no one got hurt..
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Old August 22, 2017, 10:51 PM   #22
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I have never seen a Garand slamfire, but I have seen plenty of AR's, and almost always it was a Winchester small rifle primer. I saw one Wolf small rifle (not magnum) slamfire. Now I have been around 1000's of AR's on the firing lines, and maybe a couple of 1000 Garands, and the Garand shooters mostly use milsurp, not handloads.
Times have really changed since the mid 1990's. AR15’s were so scarce that in the late 80’s early 90’s I used to get into arguments about AR15’s slamfiring. At the time everyone had heard or seen Garand/M1a’s slamfires, but no one had ever heard of an AR15 slamfiring. At the time, conventional wisdom totally discounted primer sensitivity as a factor for slamfires. There was no such thing as primer sensitivity. Primers were primers, they were all round and shiny and the sensitivity was the same for all of them if anyone had every thought of primer sensitivity as a concept. Which they had not. The only allowed causes of slamfires were “high primers and worn out receiver bridges”. Since the AR15 did not have a receiver bridge it was therefore impossible to have a slamfire with factory ammunition. The assumption was that factory ammunition did not have high primers.

The high primer theory was the least likely cause of slamfires as high primers are the most common cause of misfires. If the primer is not firmly seated, if the anvil is not firmly seated and the gap between anvil and cup not correctly set, the end result is a misfire. However there are rare instances of people placing spacers under their primers and there is always the potential of a shallow primer pocket.

Now enough AR15 slamfires have occurred that the phenomena is acknowledged, but there are so few Garands and M1a’s in competition now, that you will have arguments with those who do not believe these mechanisms can slamfire.
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Old August 23, 2017, 02:57 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamfire View Post
The high primer theory was the least likely cause of slamfires as high primers are the most common cause of misfires. If the primer is not firmly seated, if the anvil is not firmly seated and the gap between anvil and cup not correctly set, the end result is a misfire. However there are rare instances of people placing spacers under their primers and there is always the potential of a shallow primer pocket.
I have been wondering about the same for years. When discussing misfires in pistols, primers not full seated (high primers) is always a prime suspect. When talking about slam fire in rifles, high primers is again the prime suspect. Usually it is the same crowd having it both ways.

Even high primers due to shallow pockets is an unlikely cause to slam fire, I would say. The bolt face is flat. Primers don't ignite easily unless they are hit by pointed objects. Remember round nose bullets for rifles with magazine tube?

-TL
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Old August 23, 2017, 06:24 AM   #24
Dave P
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My comment about always using a clip, was directed at a new shooter: "Both are new to me "

Yes, experienced folks can load singly, following a different set of instructions.
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Old August 23, 2017, 08:19 AM   #25
Slamfire
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Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamfire View Post
The high primer theory was the least likely cause of slamfires as high primers are the most common cause of misfires. If the primer is not firmly seated, if the anvil is not firmly seated and the gap between anvil and cup not correctly set, the end result is a misfire. However there are rare instances of people placing spacers under their primers and there is always the potential of a shallow primer pocket.
I have been wondering about the same for years. When discussing misfires in pistols, primers not full seated (high primers) is always a prime suspect. When talking about slam fire in rifles, high primers is again the prime suspect. Usually it is the same crowd having it both ways.

Even high primers due to shallow pockets is an unlikely cause to slam fire, I would say. The bolt face is flat. Primers don't ignite easily unless they are hit by pointed objects. Remember round nose bullets for rifles with magazine tube?

Take a look at this, written by an individual who works at CCI, making ammunition apparently:

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01...motaip_200909/

Page 5 of 9

The real story is that Boxer primers leave the factory with the anvil higher than it would be when seated in a cartridge case. Seating so anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket lets the anvil tip penetrate into the pellet of mix. The nearly universal recommendation of having the primer cup bottom 0.003 to 0.005 inch below flush with the case head exists to set the proper amount of priming mix between the cup and the anvil tip.

This critical distance is known as the bridge thickness. Establishing the optimum thickness through proper seating means the primer meets sensitivity specifications but does not create chemical instability. However, failing to set the bridge thickness through proper seating depth is the number one cause of primer failures to fire. The bridge thickness is too great with a high primer, even one whose anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket


This is useful and it was written by the Army:

PATR 2700, Encyclopedia of Explosives, gives this information into the design of primers:

The sensitivity of a primer for a given firing pin/weapon system is then designed into the primer by the proper choice of the thickness of the base of the primer cut, the point radius of the anvil, and the degree of compression of the mixture between the anvil point and the cup. This is controlled by the degree to which the anvil is compressed into the cup during manufacture of the primer. In addition, some influence of further compression can be achieved when the primer is inserted into the cartridge case and crimped.

The more I self educated on primers, the more it became apparent that the Army used the ignorance of the general population, and their authority status, to bamboozle the shooting community. High primers are the least likely cause of slamfires, though, theoretically possible.

When I bought my SuperMatch M1a’s, Springfield Armory provided a copy of Wayne Faatz’s article “The Mysterious Slamfire” which was printed in the American Rifleman in Oct 1983.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2649554/Th...ious-Slamfire-

Mr. Faatz had an out of battery slamfire, from the clip, with Federal primers. He wrote an article trying to understand why it happened to him.

First on his list of slamfire causes is a sensitive primer.

1. Sensitive Primer (included under this category is a high primer)
2. Minimum headspace chamber and inadequate case sizing (leading to the firing pin hitting the primer with excessive force)
3. Hammer following the bolt
4. Fouled bolt face

I believe Wayne Faatz was an honest man, a man who had an out of battery slamfire with Federal match primers, and wanted to find out why. He was however, living in the era when the liars at the NRA and the Army controlled the discussion. So, he was working in a world where the authorities ensured that the only conclusion that appeared in print, for a cause of slamfires, was your high primer and your worn out gun Wayne had no reason to assume the authorities were lying or delusional (at best) .

C. Ed Harris is also an ex American Rifleman technical writer from the 70's and he is a Davidian to the core. You can read his post, complete with bold print and spouting specifications, to impress the reader, about how the only thing that causes Garands/M1a's/ mini M14's to slamfire is your "worn out gun and sloppy ammunition."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....44&postcount=7
M1A M-14 slam fire
Quote:
I have examined several M1 Garand, Ruger Mini-14 and M1A rifles which have slam-fired.

All such incidents I am personally aware of occurred using handloads.

1) While soft primers may be a contributing factor, this is not the sole explanation.

2) If primers are not seated below flush of the case head, protrusion of the primer cup above the case head is a factor.

3) If cases are not sized and trimmed properly, so that there is resistance to full bolt closure and lockup, this is another factor. Both sized cases and loaded rounds should be gaged 100%. Use of military ammunition in minimum SAAMI or custom "match" chambers can also cause tolerance stacking interference.

4) When the rifle is properly assembled, with correct parts which gage properly, the firing pin should be flush or below the bolt face at "half-lock" (7-1/2 degrees bolt rotation on the M14). This is measured using a stripped bolt and slave slide-handle using a dial indicator gage inserted from the muzzle.

5) When M1a parts guns are assembled with surplus parts which may have been rejected because they didn't gage up, this is a big factor.

6) If the firing pin retraction cam in the receiver web doesn't gage properly this is another factor.

7) If the "tail" of the firing pin which engages the receiver retraction cam does not gage properly, this is a factor.

8) If primer pockets are loose from repeated reloads of brass having head hardness less than 170Vickers Diamond Pyramid Hardness, loose primers, or blown primers which leave debris in the bolt face can also cause a slam-fire.

Slam-fires have not to my knowledge been documented in properly assembled rifles in which all parts in the assembly meet the government gages, when using either NATO, US military or SAAMI specification commercial match ammunition, such as M80, L2A2, M118, M852 or Federal #308M.

An exact attributing cause of any slamfire is often impossible to determine because of interaction of multiple variables and the fact that "the Brass Fairy" often removes much of the evidence.
Imagine a huge organization full of these characters just shouting down any theory that would show that this mechanism does not have a positive firing pin block, and is inherently prone to slamfiring, in battery or out of battery, based on primer sensitivity.

Wayne Faatz spent so much time "proving" that a high primer could ignite that he inadvertently proved how difficult it was to get a primer to ignite. Read his article and after all his failures to get a high primer to ignite, he finally ends up sticking spacers under his primers. You should know enough now to understand that before he stuck spacers under his primers, the anvils of his high primers were not supported so they misfired. But, once the anvils were supported, and the bridge distance set, the primers went off, just exactly as they are designed to do. But, this supported the theories of the day, and no one has questioned the results or methods of Wayne for thirty years, and Springfield Armory includes his article with every M1a they sell. Thus, helping deceive the shooting community that only high primers and your worn out rifle cause slamfires.


Springfield Armory M1A Manual, page 4

http://www.springfield-armory.com/do...=M1AManual.pdf

Ammunition
The M1A is designed and built to specifications to shoot standard factory military 7.62 NATO ammunition. The specifications for standard military ammunition include harder primers to withstand the slight indentation from the firing pin when the bolt chambers a cartridge. This slight indentation is normal. The use of civilian ammunition with more sensitive primers or hand loads with commercial primers and/or improperly seated primers increase the risk of primer detonation when the bolt slams forward. This unexpected "slam fire" can occur even if the trigger is not being pulled and if the safety is on. Use of military specification ammunition will help avoid this.

Every shooter should use extreme caution when loading this or any other firearm. See page 17 for instructions on proper loading to help avoid a "slam fire". Also see enclosed article on “Slam Fire” written by Wayne Faatz
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