45 Colt versus 44 Magnum

[stellite]

Fourdogs:
Sometimes numbers can be misleading. For instance I shot a few Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ 1425fps/1533 ft.lbs from my 4 3/4" FA at a large stainless steel plate that was maybe 3/16 thick from about 10 yards. Those are some serious rounds. When one of those lit off I got moved back about a step. They put a serious dent in that plate. Nothing remained but splatter.

Next up was my 7 1/2" FA 454 with a Colt cylinder. It was ported ( later had the barrel cut down to 5 1/2" ) so I figured I was losing some velocity which made it a fairly even match with my 44 barrel. I made up some 360gr wheel weight boolits with 16 grains of 4227 which most of you know is a pretty tame load. The gun hardly moved because of the ports, but the dents in the plate were huge, much deeper and wider than the 44.

I'm guessing the BB was moving so fast it disintrigrated which it did. The 360's were moving maybe 1100 ( just a guess ) but they had more authority and actually blew the plate off the stand whereas the BB didn't move the plate at all. Wish I still had that plate. It would be instructive to post a pic.

This wasn't very scientific but it was enough to finally give the nod to the 454 and I sold the 44.

Fourdogs, that is a pretty nifty little test. However, I doubt that the 44 load was traveling at rated velocity from your 4.75 inch barrel. A near 3 inch difference between both guns is a huge difference in velocity and give equal barrel lengths the results might have been closer. However, the 454 average loads are equal to the BB44 load(which is the max 44 mag load) and with the 454 you can go to levels the 44 will never attain. Also, interesting that the BB bullet disintegrated. I would have expected more toughness out of it.

[seeker_two]

Speaking of the 5-shot .45Colt conversions....I wonder why no one ever did one for .44Magnum?

[spaniel]

seeker, they have probably not offered them because there is comparatively little to gain. The 44 is already a high performance, high pressure round. The 45 has more potential gains from such a conversion, and is the only way to get that kind of performance out of the round.

[Flyboy_451]

Freedom Arms has made them for years. Several custom builders will bud them if asked, but as the previous poster speculated, I would also think there is less gain to be made with a .44 due to its already high pressure.

Adding more pressure beyond a certain point gains smaller increases in velocity. For small gains in velocity, you are moving closer and closer to the danger point in pressure.

JW

[fourdogs]

This is an interesting thread comparing 44/45. They usually are. This thread though has a lot of level headed people who are friendly and don't take it personally. Kudos to everyone.

Debating the differences on different levels is not only educational but fun. The recent lengthy post flyboy made is spot on imo. Very well written and conveyed, and who can argue with Linebaugh ? Yes there can be rather large differences between calibers depending what type of gun you have and what type of ammunition. I personally like loading for the 45. You really have to if you want performance. Factory 44 already comes with that.

Stellite is right too. In my crude experiment the BB wasn't going anywhere near it's published V in my 4 3/4" barrel but they disintegrated nevertheless. I would have expected more toughness as well. Another reason to cast so you have complete ( more ) control with respect to how your boolits will perform. btw, I don't load for high pressure even in my 454. I like heavy and relatively slow ~ 1000/1200.

[stellite]

A buddy of mine is loading the new punch bullets for his 454, which apparently are so hard and strong that there is no deformation at all, since they are machined. They are expensive though at $2 for just the bullet.

[Budda]

How is the bullet going to get traction on the rifleing? ^^^^^^

[stellite]

Don't know, and also, there may be some blow by from gasses. But they apparently work well.

[fourdogs]

I researched punch bullets some time ago. I think they're made out of brass. No problem sealing brass in a bore if sized right. I shot brass in my 50BMG but it was hell to clean and hard on the bore so I switched to pure copper. In my 454 I'll stick with lead.

[stellite]

I wonder at 50bmg velocities that may be a problem. May not be so much at 1300-1400 fps.

[fourdogs]

From my experience brass loading in 50's isn't so much velocity but bore roughness. Lead is fairly easy to remove from a bore. Copper a little more difficult. Brass is imo exponentially more difficult. Needless to say cleaning a 5 1/2" barrel is easier than cleaning a 30"

Every barrel is a law unto itself. I would wager punch bullets wouldn't load up that much simply because not that many bullets would probably be shot. With a 50 I shot lots of rounds and found that I needed to clean every 10 to 15 rounds to maintain accuracy which was around 6" at 1000 yards/ Still I believe brass is very difficult to remove from a bore.

[mavracer]

Adding more pressure beyond a certain point gains smaller increases in velocity. For small gains in velocity, you are moving closer and closer to the danger point in pressure.

Just to expand a little, peak pressure doesn't always equate to higher velocity. you can blow either gun to smithereens using bullseye and never get near the velocity you can with a slower burning powder. peak velocity is acheived with the total amount of pressure under the curve, to have a good curve for these calibers requires large quanitys of slower burning powders. The big Colts case capacity gives it an advantage when not restrained by gun design.

[stellite]

Case capacity far exceeds max allowable loads in both calibers so that is a moot point.

[Sarge]

It doesn't far exceed them with slow powders, stellite; and slow powders are what pushes the 325+ slugs fastest, with the most forgiving and predictable pressure curve. Right there is where case capacity really begins to matter.

[fourdogs]

Sarge is spot on imo. The 45 case may be at the bottom of the big bores but there's enough volume to drive some pretty heavy bullets to some pretty impressive speeds. It's possible to run out of room with slower powders in a 45 especially with deep seated bullets. I've read Dick Casull filled cases ( Not sure 45 or 454 or what bullet ) with Bullseye trying to blow up some of his guns and he couldn't do it.

[Noreaster]

I tried a 45 colt for hunting, (Ruger.) Fine firearm and very accurate, but I don't reload and the only factor hunting loads were painful to shoot. I just wanted a hardcast going about 1200-1300 fps, perfect for my whitetall hunting up close. I went with a 44mag and never looked back. I owned several and my current hunting load is Winchester White box 240 JSP. This load is very accurate and does everything I need it to. I was hunting with Hornady flex tip before that.

[mavracer]

Case capacity far exceeds max allowable loads in both calibers so that is a moot point.

there's more to case capacity than how much powder will fit, volume has a lot to do with the pressure curve.
you take a nice safe load and then seat the bullet much deeper and see what happens.

[oldgael]

If you want a more a more powerful .45, just go with the 454 Casull.

[stellite]

Mavracer, I understand your point. I guess my point is that I have seen no one utilize that in the past in any way that proves anything. Show me how these advantages physically manifest themselves in real world performance numbers. Show me how these advantages have allowed you to create loads that far exceed the ability of the 44 magnum? I have yet to see that anywhere listed in 5 pages of discussion. The highest energy safe FACTORY load for the 44 mag has already been shown to be 1649 ft-lbs of energy. There is not one FACTORY magnum level 45lc load that even comes close. There are several other factory 44 loads in the 1400 ft-lb range. Show me a SAFE factory or handloaded load for the 45 lc that FAR exceeds these 44 mag numbers so that we can see how this case capacity is such an advantage?

I will end my point with this. The advantages the 44 mag has over the 45lc FAR outweigh any disadvantages. The availability of factory loaded magnum ammo at almost any sporting goods store should be enough of an advantage. The availability of better loaded magnum level ammo to do anything you need to is another advantage. The availability of so many more handguns in 44 magnum is another biggie. Cost of all of the above is another advantage.

In the end if I want to exceed the performance of a 44 mag, I would go to a 454 or bigger.

[dagger dog]

Dirty Harry vs Rooster Cogburn, what a fight, bigger hole, lower pressure, or a screaming 200 fps and 75 ftlb more energy.

Match a heavyweight against a light heavyweight,who's going to win most of the time ?

I like to root for the under dog too BUT I'll bet my money on Rooster!

[Flyboy_451]

I do agree that in factory loadings, the .44 edges out the .45, but I thought the original question posed was which is more powerful...

Limiting it to factory loads is not a way of accurately determining which is the more capable cartridge. I think a much better comparison is much like the one Mr. Linebaugh did in which the loads were only restricted to the pressure that produced equal safety margins for the guns they were to be fired in. Now we are comparing the capabilities of the cartridge, not some arbitrary limitation imposed by anything (or anyone) other than physics. The .45 is at a disadvantage here because the larger diameter limits the strength of the gun, but this increase in diameter increases the work potential of the pressure generated. Mr. Linebaugh demonstrated that the increase in work potential due to diameter, outweighs the pressure difference, and thus, the .45 will outperform the .44.

By using factory loads by such companies as Buffalo Bore, you can indeed increase the performance of the .44, but this is the result of increasing pressure, likely beyond the 100% safety margin that Linebaugh allowed. If we were to increase the .45 to the same degree beyond that 100% safety margin, you would see the same result as when were held to a 100% margin. As I said in another post, it is not reasonable or scientifically honest to increase the pressure of one, without doing the same with the other. This would be like comparing loads for five shot .45s to loads for six shot .44s. it is not an apples to apples comparison.

Having said all that, I do agree with you that the availability of heavily loaded .44 gives it an advantage to some shooters. It has also been my experience that for the vast majority of applications for which a handgun is suitable, either one is a good choice. but, no matter how ya slice it and dice it, the .45 edges out the .44 when loaded to the same safety margins for a given firearm capable of handling heavy loads.

Given the choice, I think it is safer to increase diameter rather than pressure. I also find it more pleasant to shoot. YMMV

JW

[stellite]

wrong flyboy, no manufacturer is going beyond safety limits, the liability is to great and again, no proof of 45lc having more power. Not one iota of proof. Just lots of talk. As it stands if we go by the numbers then 44 magnum wins in power...1649 ft-lbs Show me numbers instead of paragraphs of talk.

[mavracer]

As it stands if we go by the numbers then 44 magnum wins in power...1649 ft-lbs Show me numbers instead of paragraphs of talk.

From the link in post 17

About 8 years ago I had just finished a .45 Colt on an old Abilene frame. Barrel length was 7 1/2 inches and the 6-shot cylinder was oversize in diameter and full frame length. Our load was 30 grains of Hercules 2400 and 225 gr. Speer JHP. Our goal was 2000 fps, just like Dick Casull called for in the .454. Velocity was in the range of 1700 fps so more powder was needed. We ended up shooting 36 grains of 2400 and our top velocity was 1960 fps.

thats a 225gr bullet at 1960fps from a 45 colt case 1919ft-lbs.

And just for the record the Buffalo Bore +P+ 44mag is over SAAMI pressure and length
It all matters where you want to draw the line.
SAAMI 44mag wins
factory ammo still 44mag
what you can wring out of the cases in custom 5 shot gun with a knowledgable reloader 45 colt will win. Just as I said 2 pages ago.

[Pathfinder45]

......a horse to water but you can't make him drink. The 45 Colt......it's not for everyone.

[fourdogs]

^ That's true, but the same thing can be said about the 44. I like the 44. I shot factory. I shot over SAMMI. I hand loaded. I could really crank up the power if I wanted but I paid a price in terms of increased muzzle blast and recoil. High end 44 loads are simply brutal. I don't think anyone will deny that.

I only hand load for my 45 ( FA 454 w/ colt cylinder ) Not much ammo to be found in stores that aren't low end except Corbin/ BB etc. Since I've extensively loaded the 44 and 45 caliber I can tell you this. If you have a strong gun the 45 will do more work and it's more flexible with respect to bullets. I'm guessing you can go as low as 185 gr although I never have. I know you can go as high as 400gr because that's what I normally shoot. I doubt the 44 can achieve that spread even in their own perspective weights.

Really though arguing pounds of energy is academic because few of us will ever shoot to that degree or want to. What racer said is true. What you can wring out of the cases in custom 5 shot gun with a knowledgable reloader 45 colt will win....and I say win every time. In the end they're both great calibers. You can't go wrong with either. Like most things in life it's simply personal preference.