Missing cartridge loops on Bonanza TV show

[robhof]

Steve Mcqueen and Wanted Dead or Alive was it, his gun was a shortened Winchester with a saddle ring and the same stock set up as Nick Adams'. I used to watch both shows and always got them confused.

[arcticap]

You're right Hawg. He was just a tall man.




His actual rifle at the NRA museum:



http://nrablog.com/?tag=/nra+news

[Hawg]

Yeah bedbug she was. Wanted the gun too but settled for using it whenever she wanted to.

[Doc Hoy]

Hawg,

Good photo. Excellent.

Rob,

Steve McQueen's character was Josh Randall.

I always wondered at the choice of both Nick Adams as the Rebel and Steve McQueen in Wanted, Dead or Alive. Neither of them had established a persona as a tough guy and both of them (especially Adams) are a little too mousey looking to satisfy my ego driven tastes. McQueen developed a character later on but it had nothing to do with WDOA. Adams died too early.

Richard Boone, Robert Stack, John Russell, or Clint Walker...in my opinion would have been better choices if they were available for the job. I think John Russell was great in Pale Rider.

[Hawg]

Thanks Doc

[leadcounsel]

Does leather damage ammo casings stored in the loops?

[Hawg]

will turn them green if left long enough. I don't store ammo in loops.

[bbqbob51]

The Henry is more period correct but still a stretch placing the show in pre Civil War. The patent wasn't applied for until late 1860 and they really didn't hit the field in any quantity until 1862. Still pretty minor compared to what Hollywood usually does.
Leadcounsel, I would imagine there might be some discoloration but no serious damage. I would think it would a handy way to carry extra rounds while on horseback which would be the advantage.

[Hawg]

The show evolved over the years and was set in Nevada which wasn't touched much by the late unpleasantness so it's easy to disregard the timeline.

[SainthoodDenied]

It's actually according to how the leather was tanned to wether it will turn brass green or not, chrome tanned or vegetable tanned. Chrome tanning came around before the civil war and is much quicker than vegetable tanning and became much more popular and profitable and is mostly what you find being used by holster makers now days but the chemicals involved ((chromium)) react with the brass and cause the discoloration.

[Tombstonejim]

Paladin from Have Gun Will Travel did not have loops on his gun belt.

[Hawg]

My daughters leather is top quality vegetable tanned and will turn them green if left long enough.

[Model-P]

My El Paso Saddlery belts are vegetable tanned, and corrode the brass just fine. Even corroded nickel in one that held them for twenty or so years. Yes, the corrosion can get to be severe enough to damage the brass, but it takes a long time. I no longer store cases in my belts as I got tired of how it affected brass. If you don't plan to cycle the brass through every week or two, then I suggest keeping the cases out of the loops.

[wogpotter]

Not sure about pistol belts but I remember reading that canvass was very popular for rifle ammunition belts just because it didn't cause verdigris on brass cases.

[Hardcase]

My daughters leather is top quality vegetable tanned and will turn them green if left long enough.

Not only that, but the green gets all over the leather - yuck! I tried once to tell my father in law that cartridge loops on his belt were a product of Hollywood, but about halfway in, I sort of got the feeling that it was akin to telling him that Saint John the Duke wore a hairpiece. I gave up.

[Malamute]

Cartridge loops are most definately not a Hollywood product, unless Hollywood was a post saddler on western military posts in the 1860's. Ordinary soldiers were also sewing loops on their belts in that period. Cartridge loops were becoming common in the mid-late 1860's. Regular military pistol belts were being modified with loops by several saddlers for rifle cartridges, and later pistol cartridges. So much so, that the Army, before long, began making them for issue, and abandonded the cartridge boxes in use before then.

If you want to know what was used back in the day, dig up a copy of "Packing Iron", it has some excellent historical information about gunleather, and some very good pictures of period gear.


I store rounds in my belts, and have for probably 30 years. It hasn't caused any true trouble, just the minor annoyance of the verdegris. I like having them ready to go, so consider it a worthwhile tradeoff. I use a plastic bore brush of a smaller size to clean the crud out of the loops carefully, maybe once or twice a year depending on the belt, and clean the rounds off now and then before heading out into the hills. I've started using some nickel plated brass in some calibers to eliminate the crud issue. The Army used some tin plated cases in the 1880's I believe, just for this reason, but went to canvas belts and dropped the tin plated cases. I also like the nickel brass for another reason. I only load bear loads in nickel brass in 45-70 and 45 Colt, so I know at a glance what the load is when checking a belt or gun when heading out.

[RJay]

Sorry, Paladin's gun belt did have loops. Left side.

[Old Grump]

Somewhere in the north woods of Wisconsin is a .348 round and in the Orogrande mine in New Mexico is a few 357 mag cartridges. Couple of my belts have loops and the bandoleer holster rig I am making will have loops for 44 mag and 20 gauge shotgun shells but other than that all rounds for whatever weapon I am carrying goes into my right front pants pocket and nothing else goes into that pocket.

I hate losing rounds and loops have always been a pain in the yup-yup to get out in a hurry or when I was in certain positions like the close quarters of a blind. Just dos centavos from an old dinosaur. Exception is rounds that fit into a magazine and they go in a pouch.

Just personal experience but other than cowboy movies I don't remember any duty belts from the late 40's and early 50's with loops.

[Scorch]

The show evolved over the years and was set in Nevada which wasn't touched much by the late unpleasantness so it's easy to disregard the timeline

Nevada did not become a state until 1864, so it is easy to see why it was largely untouched by the unrest. And it was admitted because of its large gold and silver deposits to help pay the bill for the party back East, even though it did not meet the population requirements.

Gun belts with belt loops existed before 1900, but they were uncommon because at the end of the Civil War there were very few cartridge guns, so there were no cartridges to put into the belt loops.

In spite of the numerous fans, Bonanza was a low-budget TV show about fictional characters living on a fictional ranch, it was never intended to be historically accurate. Guns used during the first few seasons were whatever the prop department had on hand, after that they could probably name their favorites and get them. But they still had to use the same blanks, same as John Wayne movies set in 1850s using 1892 Winchesters.

[simonkenton]

[robhof]

Richard Boone was allegedly buried in his Palladin clothes as was The Lone Ranger.

[Hawg]

Gun belts with belt loops existed before 1900, but they were uncommon because at the end of the Civil War there were very few cartridge guns, so there were no cartridges to put into the belt loops.

Between 1873 and 1900 there were 191,999 Colt SAA's made. 115,499 1877 Lightenings, 41,999 1878 Frontiers, 31,000 1889 Navies, 130,999 new model Armies and Navies. Which is 511,496 cartridge guns from Colt alone between 1873 and 1900. Then you have S&W, Remington and a host of others.

[Malamute]

"Gun belts with belt loops existed before 1900, but they were uncommon because at the end of the Civil War there were very few cartridge guns, so there were no cartridges to put into the belt loops."


So, there was a blank in the 35 year period between 1865 (the end of the Civil War) and 1900? Hawg made a good point in this regards, tho Colt was making cartridge revolvers from 1872 on, and Smith&Wesson was making their single action top break .44's from about 1868. The Army had cartridge breech loaders from the Civil War (Spencers in particular, and they were used on the western frontier for several years afterwards), and in 1866 the Trapdoor Springfield was being used, in 58 rimfire, then 50-70, then 45-70 in 1873. The commercial firearms market also was rapidly developing in cartridge guns in the early 1870's. Historically, and from period photgraphs, we know cartridge belts were fairly common in that period, and in the military from the mid-late 1860's.

[bbqbob51]

Very interesting facts and ideas here. I had no idea when I started this thread that there would be the interest. Thanks for all the info and posting great pics!

[Dave Cole]

I agree with everybody about plenty of loops being between 1860-1900.Like said a quick look at "Packing Iron" will show numerous original photos of such.

I was a fan of "Wanted Dead or Alive" with McQueen playing Josh Randall.You can still get a reasonable copy of the gun he carried.Called the "Mare's Leg" it is produced in Italy and for the legal people it'sproduced as a handgun so no SBR permit required.Dave