Tumbler problems

dw350sx · March 14, 2009, 02:43 PM

I have encountered a problem and am wondering if any of you have had the same experience, and if so, do you have an answer?

I have a Lyman vibrating tumbker and I am using crushed walnut shell media.

My media has sat for many years, but was still in the plastic bag and never used.

Now when I tumble brass a very large percentage of my brass comes out with some kind of black gunk on them. This stuff is like a gummy stuff and packed onto the brass. I have used Acetone to was it off, or I have used steel wool to rub it off, but it is time consuming.

Any Ideas as to where this crap is coming from.

**Unclenick** · March 14, 2009, 03:03 PM

That's a new one. I wonder if the walnut wasn't dried properly before it was loaded with abrasive and you've got some wood oil or tree sap in there. Odd. If so, odorless mineral spirits or not-so-odorless turpentine should soak it off over night.

I would put the media on a cookie sheet lined with aluminum foil and bake it out at about 250 degrees F for a couple of hours in the oven. See if that stuff migrates to the foil?

If you don't get any of that stuff in that way, you might actually have some kind of gunk coming out of the cases, I suppose? Old bullet lube would be the first potential culprit if you shoot cast bullets?

Horseman · March 14, 2009, 03:05 PM

It sounds like your media is dirty. Take a paper towel and cut it into 1" strips. Fill your tumbler with media(no brass for now) and add the paper towel strips. Now drizzle about 1 to 2oz.s of odorless mineral spirits on the paper towels. Put the lid on and run that for a while. THe moist towel strips will collect whatever black gummy stuff is in the media. You may have to do it again if your media is really bad. You'll know when you're done by looking at the sides of the tumber bowl. They will be perfectly clean and dust free when you're done. The mineral spirits will clean the media and you'll notice your brass doesn't need any dust wiped off when using this technique. You can add the mineral spirits to the media while tumbling brass too. It keeps everything clean and static free. I've been doing this for years.

billcarey · March 14, 2009, 03:15 PM

Thats strange alright. I'm still pulling from a large stash of walnut media I bought about 15 yrs ago. Tumbled some last week and it still works and looks like new.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · March 14, 2009, 03:44 PM

I had the exact same thing happen to me on some old military .45 ACP brass. It was extremely gummy and I had to use mineral spirits to remove it. I wondering if there was some type of sealant used when seating the bullet that was activated by the small amount of mineral spirits I use in my media. Kind of like "reactivating" glue. I was really close to throwing the brass away...it was this bad. But no, It took me closes to 2 hours to clean the crap out. I have empathy for ya man!

dw350sx · March 14, 2009, 04:28 PM

Thank you for all the good answers.

I will expand a bit on my situation, when I first posted the question, I was in a bit of a hurry but have more time now.

This media is close to 20 years old, I had media in my tumbler for close to 20 years while I was not reloading, about a month ago, I got back to reloading and did the first tumbling in the media that had sat in my tumbler for all them years, the first 2 batches of brass came out with the black crap on them.

I replaced that media with the new I have that has sat in the bag for the past 20 years, and in clean dry inviroment and never used. This media is the remainder of the bag of media the first media came from.

The first 2 batches of brass I tumbled with the first media was 30-06 brass that I have tumbled and reloaded years ago. thats the first ones that came out all gummed up.

Since I changed my media, I just tumbled a batch of 30-30 brass and got the same results. This brass came from my brother who lives 250 miles away, so I feel the problem must be with the media, and not the brass.

I'm only shooting a guess here, but I wonder if the media has just plain gotten bad, since it has sat so long.

QBall45 · March 14, 2009, 05:29 PM

Do yourself a favor. Run to the pet store and buy another bag of walnut. They call it lizard litter and its about $20 for about a 50 pound bag. This should fix the problem with the old media. Hope this helps.

amamnn · March 14, 2009, 06:37 PM

I may have the same lot of Media from the same maker? Mine is Frankford Arsenal UNTREATED walnut media that I bought when my 25 year old daughter was 7. I just add a bit to the tumbler as the media deteriorates (turns to dust) which happens at maybe a half cupful a year. If you keep it dry and don't use polishes and/or other un-necessary gunk a 20 pound bag lasts virtually forever. I still have about half the bag in reserve and I tumble all my brass every time I shoot it. Lately I run through 100 to 800 rounds per week, depending on the season. Not so long ago, It was 500 to 1000 using the same bag of media.

PCJim · March 14, 2009, 11:03 PM

DW, I think it would be prudent to replace the media and see if you get the same results. Try some Kaytee bird litter which can be found at most Walmarts and PetSmart stores. Eight pounds will cost you less than eight dollars.

With all the rainy weathre you folks are supposed to have in the Pacific NW, I'm wondering if the media has deteriorated. Does the bag indicate what type of wood the media was made from? Hopefully, not pine.....

dw350sx · March 15, 2009, 09:39 AM

PCJIM, yes the box indicates what it is, but it is crushed walnut shells, not wood.

I am goint to dump all this media and wash out my tumbler pot, and clean things up really good, and start with new media today, will let everyone know if this cleans things up for me.

1 other thing my wife reminded me of, A few months ago I had about $10.00 worth of old world war 2 steel pennies, When those pennies were made, thay had a very thin coating of zinc to keep them from rusting. I had tumbled them in this tumbler to bring the shine back to the pennies, I suspect now, I am getting some residue from the zinc coating material that was on the pennies.

I want to thank all of you for your replies and suggestions.

PCJim · March 15, 2009, 12:11 PM

DW, maybe a chemistry major will chime in here. I'm thinking now, with this added information......

The zinc residue remaining in the media from the pennies is bonding to the surface of the brass (brass is a alloy of copper and zinc), and the primer residue (lead styphenate) from inside the cases is trying to bond with that zinc coating. All this occurring at a molecular level.

Chemistry majors???

dw350sx · March 15, 2009, 02:24 PM

PCJIM, Well I will soon find out, but here is some more that I discovered.

I emptied the tumbler and the whole bottom of the tumbler tub was coated with the same kind of stuff that was getting on my brass.
I had to literally scrape, scratch and scrub that crap off with a brass wire brush, my pocket knife and I used Acetone to final wash off the residue.

I have replaced all the media and have a fresh batch of media and dirty brass in it as I type this. Will report my results in a few hours.

dw350sx · March 15, 2009, 05:41 PM

I found my problem.
It had to be the residue from me tumbling the old world war 2 steel pennis with the zinc on them.

I have run 2 tests, first after cleaning all the scum from my tumbler tub, I run a batch of brass with the lizard litter that one of you suggested. Problem gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Second test, I emptied the lizard litter out and put the original media back in and have been tumbling a batch of .243 and 30-06 brass for an hour now, and again, problem solved.

Word to the wise, don't tumble old world war 2 steel pennies and then try to clan brass, with out first thourily scrubbing your tumbler tub.

Thank you for all your replies, They helped me to scratch my head and get answers.

PCJim · March 15, 2009, 07:04 PM

DW, glad to hear you figured it out.

Oldfalguy · March 16, 2009, 11:09 PM

Sounds like a great thing to find a media that doesn't require an our trip to a gun store.
How does it compare to walnut or corn cob?
I see that it contains Douglas/White Fir and (the one I looked at) Eucalyptus Chips.
So is this OK? Heck hope so make my little shop room smell good too!!

PCJim · March 17, 2009, 02:28 PM

Oldfalguy, the lizard litter or bird litter we are referring to is walnut media. Sold at Walmart and Petsmart as Kaytee Walnut Bird Litter, around $8 for 7 pounds.

From what you are describing, I think you are referring to bedding material.

dw350sx · March 17, 2009, 06:26 PM

Oldfalguy,
PCJIm is correct, what I found is ground English Walnut shells, None of the other items that you mentioned.

What I have found with this lizard litter is that it ground up finer than the walnut shell media that I bought at the gun shop years ago.

It does a good job of cleaning the brass, but I have to say, I feel it alone takes a bit longer to get the same results as the more course walnut shells media. I actually mixed some of my old more course media with the lizard litter and now I am satisfied with the results.

I bought a 10 quart quanity at Petco for $9.95 and it is a bag big enough to replace it in my Lyman tumbler at least 5 or 6 times.

Oh by the way, The maker of the stuff I got is Zilla. They make a lot of pet bedding supplies.

Hope this helps.
Rich

James R. Burke · March 22, 2009, 11:17 AM

If it was me I would just pitch it. Clean the tumbler, and put some new stuff in.

March 14, 2009, 02:43 PM	#1
dw350sx Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 8	Tumbler problems I have encountered a problem and am wondering if any of you have had the same experience, and if so, do you have an answer? I have a Lyman vibrating tumbker and I am using crushed walnut shell media. My media has sat for many years, but was still in the plastic bag and never used. Now when I tumble brass a very large percentage of my brass comes out with some kind of black gunk on them. This stuff is like a gummy stuff and packed onto the brass. I have used Acetone to was it off, or I have used steel wool to rub it off, but it is time consuming. Any Ideas as to where this crap is coming from.

March 14, 2009, 03:03 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	That's a new one. I wonder if the walnut wasn't dried properly before it was loaded with abrasive and you've got some wood oil or tree sap in there. Odd. If so, odorless mineral spirits or not-so-odorless turpentine should soak it off over night. I would put the media on a cookie sheet lined with aluminum foil and bake it out at about 250 degrees F for a couple of hours in the oven. See if that stuff migrates to the foil? If you don't get any of that stuff in that way, you might actually have some kind of gunk coming out of the cases, I suppose? Old bullet lube would be the first potential culprit if you shoot cast bullets? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 14, 2009, 03:44 PM	#5
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	I had the exact same thing happen to me on some old military .45 ACP brass. It was extremely gummy and I had to use mineral spirits to remove it. I wondering if there was some type of sealant used when seating the bullet that was activated by the small amount of mineral spirits I use in my media. Kind of like "reactivating" glue. I was really close to throwing the brass away...it was this bad. But no, It took me closes to 2 hours to clean the crap out. I have empathy for ya man! __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

March 14, 2009, 04:28 PM	#6
dw350sx Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 8	Tumbler problems Thank you for all the good answers. I will expand a bit on my situation, when I first posted the question, I was in a bit of a hurry but have more time now. This media is close to 20 years old, I had media in my tumbler for close to 20 years while I was not reloading, about a month ago, I got back to reloading and did the first tumbling in the media that had sat in my tumbler for all them years, the first 2 batches of brass came out with the black crap on them. I replaced that media with the new I have that has sat in the bag for the past 20 years, and in clean dry inviroment and never used. This media is the remainder of the bag of media the first media came from. The first 2 batches of brass I tumbled with the first media was 30-06 brass that I have tumbled and reloaded years ago. thats the first ones that came out all gummed up. Since I changed my media, I just tumbled a batch of 30-30 brass and got the same results. This brass came from my brother who lives 250 miles away, so I feel the problem must be with the media, and not the brass. I'm only shooting a guess here, but I wonder if the media has just plain gotten bad, since it has sat so long.

March 14, 2009, 06:37 PM	#8
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	I may have the same lot of Media from the same maker? Mine is Frankford Arsenal UNTREATED walnut media that I bought when my 25 year old daughter was 7. I just add a bit to the tumbler as the media deteriorates (turns to dust) which happens at maybe a half cupful a year. If you keep it dry and don't use polishes and/or other un-necessary gunk a 20 pound bag lasts virtually forever. I still have about half the bag in reserve and I tumble all my brass every time I shoot it. Lately I run through 100 to 800 rounds per week, depending on the season. Not so long ago, It was 500 to 1000 using the same bag of media. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

March 14, 2009, 03:05 PM	#3
Horseman Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2006 Location: Midwest Posts: 1,067	It sounds like your media is dirty. Take a paper towel and cut it into 1" strips. Fill your tumbler with media(no brass for now) and add the paper towel strips. Now drizzle about 1 to 2oz.s of odorless mineral spirits on the paper towels. Put the lid on and run that for a while. THe moist towel strips will collect whatever black gummy stuff is in the media. You may have to do it again if your media is really bad. You'll know when you're done by looking at the sides of the tumber bowl. They will be perfectly clean and dust free when you're done. The mineral spirits will clean the media and you'll notice your brass doesn't need any dust wiped off when using this technique. You can add the mineral spirits to the media while tumbling brass too. It keeps everything clean and static free. I've been doing this for years.

March 14, 2009, 03:15 PM	#4
billcarey Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 273	Thats strange alright. I'm still pulling from a large stash of walnut media I bought about 15 yrs ago. Tumbled some last week and it still works and looks like new.

March 14, 2009, 05:29 PM	#7
QBall45 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2008 Location: South Central Minnesota Posts: 584	Do yourself a favor. Run to the pet store and buy another bag of walnut. They call it lizard litter and its about $20 for about a 50 pound bag. This should fix the problem with the old media. Hope this helps.

March 14, 2009, 11:03 PM	#9
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	DW, I think it would be prudent to replace the media and see if you get the same results. Try some Kaytee bird litter which can be found at most Walmarts and PetSmart stores. Eight pounds will cost you less than eight dollars. With all the rainy weathre you folks are supposed to have in the Pacific NW, I'm wondering if the media has deteriorated. Does the bag indicate what type of wood the media was made from? Hopefully, not pine.....

March 15, 2009, 09:39 AM	#10
dw350sx Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 8	Tumbler problems PCJIM, yes the box indicates what it is, but it is crushed walnut shells, not wood. I am goint to dump all this media and wash out my tumbler pot, and clean things up really good, and start with new media today, will let everyone know if this cleans things up for me. 1 other thing my wife reminded me of, A few months ago I had about $10.00 worth of old world war 2 steel pennies, When those pennies were made, thay had a very thin coating of zinc to keep them from rusting. I had tumbled them in this tumbler to bring the shine back to the pennies, I suspect now, I am getting some residue from the zinc coating material that was on the pennies. I want to thank all of you for your replies and suggestions.

March 15, 2009, 12:11 PM	#11
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	DW, maybe a chemistry major will chime in here. I'm thinking now, with this added information...... The zinc residue remaining in the media from the pennies is bonding to the surface of the brass (brass is a alloy of copper and zinc), and the primer residue (lead styphenate) from inside the cases is trying to bond with that zinc coating. All this occurring at a molecular level. Chemistry majors???

March 15, 2009, 02:24 PM	#12
dw350sx Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 8	Tumbler problem PCJIM, Well I will soon find out, but here is some more that I discovered. I emptied the tumbler and the whole bottom of the tumbler tub was coated with the same kind of stuff that was getting on my brass. I had to literally scrape, scratch and scrub that crap off with a brass wire brush, my pocket knife and I used Acetone to final wash off the residue. I have replaced all the media and have a fresh batch of media and dirty brass in it as I type this. Will report my results in a few hours.

March 15, 2009, 05:41 PM	#13
dw350sx Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 8	I found my problem. It had to be the residue from me tumbling the old world war 2 steel pennis with the zinc on them. I have run 2 tests, first after cleaning all the scum from my tumbler tub, I run a batch of brass with the lizard litter that one of you suggested. Problem gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Second test, I emptied the lizard litter out and put the original media back in and have been tumbling a batch of .243 and 30-06 brass for an hour now, and again, problem solved. Word to the wise, don't tumble old world war 2 steel pennies and then try to clan brass, with out first thourily scrubbing your tumbler tub. Thank you for all your replies, They helped me to scratch my head and get answers.

March 15, 2009, 07:04 PM	#14
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	DW, glad to hear you figured it out.

March 16, 2009, 11:09 PM	#15
Oldfalguy Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 126	Lizard Litter ? Sounds like a great thing to find a media that doesn't require an our trip to a gun store. How does it compare to walnut or corn cob? I see that it contains Douglas/White Fir and (the one I looked at) Eucalyptus Chips. So is this OK? Heck hope so make my little shop room smell good too!!

March 17, 2009, 02:28 PM	#16
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	Oldfalguy, the lizard litter or bird litter we are referring to is walnut media. Sold at Walmart and Petsmart as Kaytee Walnut Bird Litter, around $8 for 7 pounds. From what you are describing, I think you are referring to bedding material.

March 17, 2009, 06:26 PM	#17
dw350sx Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 8	Oldfalguy, PCJIm is correct, what I found is ground English Walnut shells, None of the other items that you mentioned. What I have found with this lizard litter is that it ground up finer than the walnut shell media that I bought at the gun shop years ago. It does a good job of cleaning the brass, but I have to say, I feel it alone takes a bit longer to get the same results as the more course walnut shells media. I actually mixed some of my old more course media with the lizard litter and now I am satisfied with the results. I bought a 10 quart quanity at Petco for $9.95 and it is a bag big enough to replace it in my Lyman tumbler at least 5 or 6 times. Oh by the way, The maker of the stuff I got is Zilla. They make a lot of pet bedding supplies. Hope this helps. Rich

March 22, 2009, 11:17 AM	#18
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	If it was me I would just pitch it. Clean the tumbler, and put some new stuff in.