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Old March 15, 2017, 10:28 AM   #51
cslinger
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One of the nice things about most modern tactical Tupperware is how easily it can be changed for fairly deep carry to fullish size home defense. The Glock 26 is a perfect example. A 10 round flat baseplate mag in it makes a super small package. Add a G19 or even 17 mag with a sleeve and you have a full grip full capacity handgun for the night stand. Same gun, no muss no fuss to change its roles.

I don't get surprise parties anymore. I mean geez I only winged the guy. You would think he would be over it by now but nooooooo.
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Old March 15, 2017, 10:31 AM   #52
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Quote:
Do you believe that you will be faced with a self defense situation that does not involve surprise?
What exact training does one have to think that he or she is going to be so well trained and ingrained that muscle memory is going to be able to overcome the threat without being able to identify what gun he or she is shooting? What situation are you preparing for. Survivors reporting they do not remember does not necessitate that their minds did not perceive it - it simply indicates the brain prioritized action over memory.

If I am taken by surprise by competent and determined attackers I don't kid myself about the likely outcome. I don't have the training facilities to be able to train in that manner with a firearm to overcome that. Pragmatically I am not willing to walk around and respond to any surprise in that violent of a fashion. By the time I recognize such a threat a competent attack would have rendered my unable to respond. If I held myself constantly in the ready to respond violently someone would surprise me and get the wrong response.

Let me try to illustrate it differently. One time at a family gathering we were playing football outside. The good news is we were playing football outside and I was not carrying. My wife thought it would be funny, during a break in the action, to sneak up behind me and try a choke hold. My wife ended up over and on the ground in front of her entire family and I looked like a jerk. Muscle memory and all that....

Some of you are advocating that kind of readiness with a firearm. I hope no one throws you a surprise party.
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Old March 15, 2017, 10:34 AM   #53
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Let's go back to "When I pick up a revolver I know it's a revolver. When I pick up a 1911, I know it's a 1911. When I pick up an XD...".

Yes, we do know what it is when we pick it up. We know what it is what we practice drawing from concealment in the living room. We know what it is what we take it to the range. We even know what it is what we take it with us to the Combat Focus Training Class.

So, the question is, what is the underlying reason for Bill's advice, which is consistent with that of many good trainers.

And in all honesty, that is a good question. It is an excellent question.

I did not understand it, except perhaps in the abstract, until some time after I had taken the Combat Focus Training course.

As I went about my daily business, I reflected upon what I had learned. I spent more time thinking about how closely I should walk past the corner of a building to my car, or close to a parked van with a couple of pairs of feet on the other side, or near a dumpster.

I reflected upon what to stay alert for, and upon what I might have to do in the gravest extreme.

And then it dawned on me.

Frankly, the fact that I had strapped on a Ruger with one kind of safety, or a 1911 with a different kind, or a Smith and Wesson M&P 9 with a still different kind, would not have remained high in my consciousness all day. Nor would whether I were carrying in a retention holster or not.

If I had to reach for whichever one I was carrying, I would certainly figure it out quickly--but perhaps not quickly enough.

It was not a matter of how much I had practiced with each.

For the citizen whose "carry rotation" also includes includes an H&K P7 and a SIG DA/SA, there is still more to narrow down.

The importance of that was amplified in my mind by watching Tueller exercises. Fact is, those are pretty scary under the best of circumstances.

I divested myself of some pistols, narrowing down to two types.

One might be better.
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Old March 15, 2017, 10:37 AM   #54
Bill DeShivs
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Much of the resistance to my original post may be because people justify buying guns by thinking "I could carry this.." We all may be guilty of that.
My sense of a problem comes when inexperienced people actually carry multiple types of different guns.
I tell you this because, many years ago I did the same thing.

It's good to be proficient with many types of firearms. It's even better to own lots of them!

But when you get over having all the new guns and have found the one that works best for you, learn it like your tongue knows your teeth, learn to shoot it instinctively and accurately, and carry it the same way and place-as much as is possible. That gun, or type of gun, then becomes a part of you. Regardless of how many guns you own, that gun or type becomes YOUR gun.
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Old March 15, 2017, 10:47 AM   #55
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Quote:
What exact training does one have to think that he or she is going to be so well trained and ingrained that muscle memory is going to be able to overcome the threat without being able to identify what gun he or she is shooting?
Did Post #53 answer your question?

Quote:
What situation are you preparing for.
Rob Pincus describes it as a dynamic critical incident. Read the book. Take the course.

Quote:
If I am taken by surprise by competent and determined attackers I don't kid myself about the likely outcome
Do you expect to face an incompetent attacker who is not determined, who does not employ the element of surprise? If so, you are not being realistic.

Quote:
Pragmatically I am not willing to walk around and respond to any surprise in that violent of a fashion.
What do you mean by that?

Quote:
By the time I recognize such a threat a competent attack would have rendered my unable to respond
. That's something for you to work on.

Quote:
If I held myself constantly in the ready to respond violently someone would surprise me and get the wrong response.
It would also wear you out, physically and mentally.

Quote:
Some of you are advocating that kind of readiness with a firearm.
Not at all. The point is, if you do have to use it, the time afforded you will be very short indeed.
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Old March 15, 2017, 11:34 AM   #56
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That's something for you to work on.
Hinckley managed to shoot Reagan. There have been multiple incursions that have reached or breached the White House.

How ready can you hold yourself? How prepared to deal with that surprise can you be? I think you are aiming for an impossible goal if that goal is to be able to defeat multiple competent and determined opponents who have the advantage of surprise.

My personal hope, if I ever have to be in such a situation, is my aggressors are not competent or not fully determined and as such give me the time needed to respond. Preferably they are neither competent or determined and everyone gets to walk away alive.
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Old March 15, 2017, 12:06 PM   #57
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How ready can you hold yourself?
Well, I do not walk around in Condition Orange or anything like that, but I stay off the cell phone and avoid texting, and I refrain from sitting in an unlocked car in a parking lot. And I keep my eyes open and notice what is going on around me. If something does not look right, I go elsewhere.

Quote:
I think you are aiming for an impossible goal if that goal is to be able to defeat multiple competent and determined opponents who have the advantage of surprise.
Yet that might well be the only way to stay alive.

Let's look at the elements:
  • Multiple--what data we have, and they have been discussed here at length over the years, tell us that, in the unlikely event of a violent criminal attack, the participation of two or more attackers is at least as likely as that of only one, if not more so;
  • Competent--it they have been imprisoned for violent offenses, they have attended the best school possible for learning how to select, surprise, attack, disarm, overpower, and injure their victims;
  • Determined--they aren't out there to have fun;
  • Surprise--that's a no brainer.

Quote:
My personal hope, if I ever have to be in such a situation, is my aggressors are not competent or not fully determined and as such give me the time needed to respond.
Do not take this personally, but no one in his right mind would place much in the way of reliance on such a naive hope.
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Old March 15, 2017, 12:33 PM   #58
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Well, I do not walk around in Condition Orange or anything like that, but I stay off the cell phone and avoid texting, and I refrain from sitting in an unlocked car in a parking lot. And I keep my eyes open and notice what is going on around me. If something does not look right, I go elsewhere.
But we have already discussed that an ambush, by definition, requires surprise. Those are things that one does naturally to simply avoid walking into a bad situation and having a firearm should not impact how one does it (let alone if one has a carry rotation).
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Old March 15, 2017, 01:17 PM   #59
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But we have already discussed that an ambush, by definition, requires surprise.
Yep!

Quote:
Those are things that one does naturally to simply avoid walking into a bad situation and having a firearm should not impact how one does it (let alone if one has a carry rotation).
They are things that people can do--albeit perhaps not "naturally"--to reduce the likelihood of an ambush. They cannot always prevent a surprise violent criminal attack.

The use of a firearm is a last resort.

The discussion of the carry rotation has to do with improving the chance of success should the firearm ultimately have to be used in a defensive encounter.
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Old March 15, 2017, 01:23 PM   #60
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The discussion of the carry rotation has to do with improving the chance of success should the firearm ultimately have to be used in a defensive encounter.
Right and my argument is, should the defensive position be so grave that those mili-seconds matter and the individual loses enough thought process that he or she must depend on muscle memory, it is unlikely the difference is going to matter.
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Old March 15, 2017, 01:50 PM   #61
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Right and my argument is, should the defensive position be so grave that those mili-seconds matter and the individual loses enough thought process that he or she must depend on muscle memory, it is unlikely the difference is going to matter.
First, those fractions of a second may well matter a great deal.

An attacker moving at five meters per second will move about a meter in two tenths of a second. That's arm's length, striking distance with a bladed weapon. Combine that with the time required to recognize the threat, draw, and fire, and you still have to figure in the time it takes for your hits to stop the attacker.

That's precious little time.

Second, we are not talking about "muscle memory" vs "thought process". We are discussing total time.

That means the time needed to observe, recognize, make rapid cognitive decisions, react, and respond--plus the time it takes for the force used to take effect.

Have you ever observed people using firearms in a classic Tueller exercise? It's scary.

In the Combat Focus Training class, a number of basic skills are developed, and the combined, layered skills are used to demonstrate what I have described above.

One of the things one does in that routine is to start moving laterally and to draw while doing so. That's because of the importance of every fraction of a second.
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Old March 15, 2017, 04:25 PM   #62
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I posted the quoted material below in another thread. Mr. Thomas' story illustrates, among other things, that it is entirely possible to have multiple guns, even those with multiple manuals of arms, and still be effective.

Quote:
For those of you relatively new to this whole thing, I would recommend looking into the shootouts Rolex watch seller Lance Thomas had with robbers. There were ultimately four shootouts and 11 bad guys thwarted, including five dead and one wounded. A repost of Massad Ayoobs article about it is available at http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...e-Thomas-story). A national TV story about it, inclduing interviews with Mr. Thomas are here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w.

Two lessons pertinent to the discussion here can be drawn. First, you don't have to be a trained Seal to protect your life. Mr. Thomas appeared to be an "average" gun owner when the first shootout occurred. Second, chances improve with training and firepower. Mr. Thomas recognized the need for both and procured both. These undoubtedly helped save him in the subsequent shootouts.
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Old March 15, 2017, 07:34 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmarksman
Bill did not opine about anyone's intelligence or knowledge or level of proficiency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs
And, it was not, "I'm smarter than you (though I probably am.)
Haha except mine. Way to back me up Bill
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Old March 15, 2017, 11:31 PM   #64
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As I mentioned in Post #53, I divested a couple of pistols with manual safeties that were somewhat dissimilar. One main reason was the realization that, after a long day, I would not necessarily have what I had put in the holster that morning in the forefront of my consciousness, and that goes to this "carry rotation" discussion.

By the way, I only take the gun out of the holster at night and to bathe.

I had another reason: I had decided that having to perform that extra, separate step to disengage the safety was not really a good thing.

But I do like the idea of having something to mitigate the risk of an unintentional discharge that might be caused by the entry of stray clothing into an empty holster.

I switched to an XDS, with a grip safety that does not require a separate operation.

However, I did retain an officers' frame 1911-type pistol, and I have carried it on occasion for various reasons.

My reasoning is that the location and operation of the 1911 safety make disengagement an almost automatic movement that takes place as the gun is raised.

Rationalization? Maybe. A bad idea? I hope I never find out.
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Old March 16, 2017, 12:37 AM   #65
Bill DeShivs
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Once you find the gun, learn the gun, wear the gun- that gun becomes a part of you. Once it happens, you will understand.
I have lots of guns-LOTS! I love them- some even more than others. But, the one I carry is different. It's always there. I don't have to think about it at all. I know what it will do and what I can do with it.
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Old March 16, 2017, 01:03 AM   #66
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I like this story for two reasons.

https://www.shootersforum.com/genera...-9mm-bear.html

The guy armed with what most would consider an effective weapon in the circumstances, literally threw it away in a panic because he couldn't remember how he had prepared/if he was prepared.

The guy armed with what most wouldn't consider to be an effective weapon under the circumstances, prevailed because he had prepared properly, because he kept a cool head and delivered accurate fire under highly stressful circumstances.
Quote:
...the idea is laughable that a person can't be competent enough to switch back and forth, the Dunning–Kruger effect is certainly in play here.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is that, people who are incompetent in a certain field, tend to grade their competence much higher than it really is because it takes competence to recognize competence. On the other hand, those who are highly competent, tend to grade their competence a little lower that it really is because they have a better understanding of the relevant complexities that may escape those who are only moderately competent.

I don't see how it applies here.

If the people who disagree with you are on the incompetent end of the scale, then the Dunning-Kruger effect would suggest that they would be overconfident, not recommending caution.

On the other hand, if the people who disagree with you are on the highly competent end of the scale (the other area where the Dunning-Kruger effect is evident), while they might underestimate their own competence slightly, they would be doing so out of an abundance of skill and experience. Which would make listening to what they have to say an excellent idea.
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Old March 16, 2017, 10:30 AM   #67
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Love the story, John:

1. Pistol grip shotgun
2. Unchambered carry when the gun might be needed fast

What else could go wrong? I knew a guy who was charged by a Texas boar by surprise. He had a pistol grip shotgun and poked it in the snout with the gun and it ran off to his surprise. He added a stock to the gun.
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Old March 16, 2017, 10:57 AM   #68
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I rotate between a Walther p99 compact and a Walther PPS classic.
Same sight picture, same mag release.

I agree, BilldeShivs
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Old March 16, 2017, 11:21 AM   #69
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Quote:
I don't see how it applies here.
Oh the irony.
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Old March 16, 2017, 03:35 PM   #70
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Quote:
I see this term a lot lately.
Please take this advice in the spirit in which it is given-from a very experienced carrier.

If you have a "carry rotation," it darned well better be 2 of the same gun, or models that are extremely similar.
Thanks, Bill.

I actually started feeling this way a few years ago, whereas in my younger days I always felt confident that I could make the adjustment instantaneously regardless of what I carried that day.

That changed one night about three years ago when I heard a 'bump in the night,' and reached for my nightstand gun from a dead sleep, and for a moment I had no idea which gun was in my hand. Soon after I decided to trade/sell all of my handguns that weren't a 1911 pattern or very similar.

Well, I didn't go that crazy, but I did change my carry 'rotation' to guns that were either 1911s or functionally similar, such as my Shield.

The one exception to this seems to be my revolvers. For some reason I can tell just by touch if I grabbed a revolver vs. anything else. Even from a dead sleep. And of course, there's no issue of fumbling the controls on a DA revolver; true point-and-shoot systems.
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Old March 16, 2017, 09:50 PM   #71
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I carried 1911 style pistols in 45acp for a decade or two and would not hesitate to carry one again. 1911s just work for me.

BUT, several years ago I made the move to Glocks, first a G30 to stick with the .45acp round I was so accustomed to and then to the G23 trading off a little energy for several more rounds. Right now my EDC is the G23, but if I can't dress around it I I go with G43 I can pocket carry.

I totally agree that you need to be 100% comfortable/competent with your EDC. If you have to draw a fire the operation of it needs to be automatic and instinctual. Hours and hours of training with the same or similar platform will build automatic reflexive actions that could save your life.
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Old March 17, 2017, 12:27 AM   #72
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Oh the irony.
The Dunning-Kruger effect explains: 1. Why incompetent people significantly overestimate their competence and 2. Why highly competent people slightly underestimate their competence.

In other words, the Dunning-Kruger effect applies to people who are either significantly overestimating their competence, or to people who are highly competent.

So can you explain which of those two categories you had in mind when you made your comment?

Here's a link to the paper in case you would like to review it prior to responding. It's a good read.

http://psych.colorado.edu/~vanboven/...er_dunning.pdf
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Old March 17, 2017, 07:06 AM   #73
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A question I was asked when I applied to be a Volunteer with Orange County Sheriffs Office. Have you ever been in a physical fight, as an adult?

Broken down, that is past the age of 18. Looking in to this seemingly simple question, it appears the most common answer is no.

Now take an individual, male or female, who has never had a fight, after the age of 18. Place a handgun on their person, the ultimate in fighting tools, fires projectiles, that can cause death, or grievous injury, and expect them to use it, against an other human? Accompanied, by a huge shot of adrenaline, and blood pressure through the roof. Can we just say, it would be a stretch?

Also, the rotation Chaps, muddy the waters with different firearms, safety catch, no safety catch, on belt, in pocket?

The good news is, most carriers of handguns, owners of concealed carry licenses, will never get to draw them in a real attack (Thank Heavens) or even draw one, and not fire it.
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Old March 17, 2017, 07:47 AM   #74
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Quote:
Right and my argument is, should the defensive position be so grave that those mili-seconds matter and the individual loses enough thought process that he or she must depend on muscle memory, it is unlikely the difference is going to matter.
I once watched a video of a robbery victim who had a good 15-17 seconds where the robber wasn't paying attention to him. He spent about 8-9 seconds rummaging through a drawer for a pistol, then another few seconds racking the slide. He had just finished doing the point the gun, pull trigger, look at gun, reach up with weak hand to flip off safety, point gun again thing when he got center punched by a very surprised robber who nevertheless knew his manual of arms.

The murder/robbery victim was an ex-military guy to boot. I can't tell you if he got so rattled at having a pistol stuck in his face that he forgot all his training or that he was just never well trained to begin with; but being able to even slowly execute his manual of arms without thinking about it would have given him an extra 10 seconds in a gunfight. And 10 seconds is a lot of time in a gunfight.
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Old March 17, 2017, 10:58 AM   #75
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Quote:
The Dunning-Kruger effect explains: 1. Why incompetent people significantly overestimate their competence ........
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunning-Kruger
In essence, we argue that the skills that endanger competence in a particular domain are often the very same skills necessary to evaluate competence in that domain---One's own or anyone else's
much as you overestimate your low understanding of the Dunning-Kruger effect you fail to recognize a superior understanding.

Same as OP's projection of his low manual dexterity on others
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