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Old March 14, 2017, 02:52 PM   #26
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You need to stay away from those places you think you're going to be ambushed.
Well, we can all agree on that.

However, we do not expect to be ambushed in places where we do not think we're gone to be ambushed.

In fact, the likelihood that we will ever have to pull a gun on any given day is far less than remote.

But the potential consequences of not being able to do so timely are extremely severe.

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You are not going into combat when you take the dog for a walk or go to the movies
What does "going into combat" have to do with it?
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Old March 14, 2017, 04:59 PM   #27
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the idea is laughable that a person can't be competent enough to switch back and forth, the Dunning–Kruger effect is certainly in play here.
I'm with Mavracer, people have competences with multiple tools all the time. Ask (or better yet watch) any tradesman. When I pick up a revolver I know it's a revolver. When I pick up a 1911, I know it's a 1911. When I pick up an XD...
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Old March 14, 2017, 06:41 PM   #28
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I have done a lot of fighting, in England mostly.

In a threat, I find my foot will fly, or a fist. Even the often used Liverpool Kiss.
Head butt to the bridge of his nose.

Coming upon a fight in a club (Me working there) a back of a combatant facing me. Study anatomy! The Kidney is a show stopper! Bring your fist in from belt level, hard, punch through the spot your fist will land. Move on to the next one.

From the front, the throat is so sensitive.

The starter bell is a knife, or gun? Draw and fire, at least in multiples of two.
Real close, the nose, or eye socket.

The guns? Same gun, same place always. I use two Glock 19s TruGlo night sights, extended slide stops, factory. Butt plug, flush fit, makes for great mag changes. Flash light on left, G17 spare mag. Too. 124g NATO Hardball.

Do not open the slide a bit to check chamber, my pistols have a wee square on the extractor, confirms chamber status. My lock blade is a Bench Made, expensive, a present from my Son. 3.5" razor sharp blade.
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Old March 14, 2017, 07:11 PM   #29
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I guess I'm guilty. But in my multiple-gun defense, I absolutely acknowledge the reality of muscle memory, and purposefully​ use other physical clues to reinforce my "drill" and remind me what I am carrying, namely a combination of location and holster choice.

For example, if I'm diving into a cargo pocket, you know I'm not fishing for a 1911. And my Beretta 92f is the only thing that has ever ridden in a GI/Galco full-flap holster, and is about the only gun I use in open-carry/wilderness situations.

No manual safeties on either Sigs or Glocks. Pull the trigger after disengaging the thumb-break at 3 o'clock, and it goes bang.

I think you get the point. Does my technique work? Well, I'll let you know when I get into the aforementioned ambush.
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Old March 14, 2017, 07:36 PM   #30
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I agree that things can become over complicated. A few years back, I alternated amongst 1911s, Glocks, revolvers.

Since then, I have simplified it into two firearms:

I carry a Glock 19 MOS (IWB) and a S&W 640 357 (pocket). I was just carrying a revolver and a backup revolver prior to this. When I hike or hunt, I have a DA/SA revolver in addition to my primary hunting tool.

As long as the relative operation is similar, I don't think it makes a huge difference...Even with muscle memory. I shoot a variety of concealed carry handguns to stay competent and effective but they do share the same qualities:

No external safety
Double action

If there are handguns with sights that require a target to be covered (at less than 15 yards), versus 6:00 hold (Big Dot XS) or a S&W M&P, versus a 6:00 hold like the rest of my pistols, that can be a big issue.

When you are switching amongst different designs of semiautomatics, I can see confusion as to whether flipping up removes the safety or flipping down does. The other Hangup is the magazine release which can be along the thumb side, index finger side, along the bottom of the grip or bottom of the trigger guard.

Lastly, there is always a variation in round count. Some 15+1, versus 10+1, versus 8 and so on. But that should be predetermined by what you're choosing for the day.


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Old March 14, 2017, 09:19 PM   #31
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When I pick up a revolver I know it's a revolver. When I pick up a 1911, I know it's a 1911. When I pick up an XD...
Of course.

At the range.

And we do not try to eject the empties from a Ruger Blackhawk the same way as we do from a Smith and Wesson Model 27. Yet we can handle either one. At the range.

Nor does the odd location of the ignition switch of our restored SAAB 900 keep us from starting it just because it isn't the same as our F-150 daily driver.

None of that relates to the short-split-second reaction required in an emergency under stress. There are automotive examples and analogies pertaining to aircraft.

What the trainers tell us is that for defensive carry, it is best to carry the same or an almost identical gun every day and to carry it in the same place on the body.
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Old March 14, 2017, 09:59 PM   #32
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OldMarksman I do not question the advantage of carrying the same gun in the same way everyday. I generally do. That does not mean I will not act just as quickly and accurately with my LCP or revolver in a high stress situation. Having never had to draw a weapon​ in a life threatening encounter I can't know this for sure. I don't accept that having a thumb safety on my primary carry, and not on my secondary​ ones puts me at greater risk.
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Old March 14, 2017, 10:07 PM   #33
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Of course.

At the range.

Not just at the range. At a certain proficiency level you know the difference (and can apply that to action) at all times. As Mavracer put it if you aren't proficient with a given weapon, that's a training issue. A physical handicap if you will. It looks to me like it's also a mental handicap.

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What the trainers tell us is that for defensive carry, it is best to carry the same or an almost identical gun every day and to carry it in the same place on the body.
LOL yeah I understood what you are asserting the first time, even without italics. I'm saying I disagree with it as a blanket statement. Sure, for the average Joe who shoots one firearm well and wants to keep things simple, that't probably a really good policy. In fact it's never a bad policy. However I think plenty of shooters can proficiently carry different pistols effectively.


I'm not saying you should do something you aren't comfortable with. I think you should do what you feel is best and if that is carry the same pistol all the time hey, that's super. No skin off my arse. I just think it's pretentious for a body to impose their skill-set on others which is how I see the original post and a number of responses.
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Old March 14, 2017, 10:23 PM   #34
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That does not mean I will not act just as quickly and accurately with my LCP or revolver in a high stress situation. Having never had to draw a weapon​ in a life threatening encounter I can't know this for sure.
It is likely that none of us will ever find out.
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Old March 14, 2017, 10:26 PM   #35
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There was nothing pretentious about my original post.
But, there is here- this is my "skill-set" I have been carrying a gun for about 45 years. I have carried almost every type. I have worked on them professionally. I have taught people to shoot. I own and am proficient with more guns than most people have ever seen.
My post was a very general one, directed at people just like you-who think they are smarter and more proficient than most.
MAYBE you can pull it off. MAYBE you can't.

But, my advice can keep your arse alive- and it's no skin off MY arse.
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Old March 14, 2017, 10:48 PM   #36
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My post was a very general one, directed at people just like you-who think they are smarter and more proficient than most.
The above quote clearly shows your intent. Those of us who don't agree with you may, or may not, be smarter and more proficient than you think we are capable of. Who are you to judge?
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Old March 14, 2017, 10:52 PM   #37
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At a certain proficiency level you know the difference (and can apply that to action) at all times.
At all times? That might end up in the category of famous last words.

Quote:
...I think plenty of shooters can proficiently carry different pistols effectively.
Most of us can carry anything "effectively". The important question is one of how we will react at that instant that counts, and how quickly we will draw, present, and fire.

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I'm not saying you should do something you aren't comfortable with.
The question is whether that "comfort" can be tested.

I was quite comfortable carrying a striker fired pistol with a manual safety that was similar in operation to a 1911, but somewhat different in location. I practiced extensively, and I convinced myself that I knew what I was doing.

I took a course under a well-known trainer who strongly advised against carrying a gun that required a separate operation to disengage a safety--the exception being the 1911, for obvious reasons.

And guess what--the first time I failed to disengage that safety happened to occur in a class when he was watching--not a high stress situation, but perhaps with some performance anxiety. I don't care whether it was the result of a "physical handicap" or a "mental handicap". It happened, and under different circumstances, it could well have led to disaster.

That was also the last time. He told me to keep the safety disengaged for the rest of the two day class. And then I replaced the gun with one with a grip safety only.

That trainer now carries the same gun.

Quote:
I just think it's pretentious for a body to impose their skill-set on others which is how I see the original post and a number of responses.
Not at all.

It is simply the considered advice of experienced trainers. Some of them see a dozen or more students training in long two day sessions more than once a week. And they share their observations with others.

They see more different techniques, different holsters, different carry positions, and different firearms used under high-performance training conditions than I have, or than most of us do.

I choose to follow their advice.
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Old March 14, 2017, 11:00 PM   #38
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Those of us who don't agree with you may, or may not, be smarter and more proficient than you think we are capable of. Who are you to judge?
Bill did not opine about anyone's intelligence or knowledge or level of proficiency.

He did remark about people who think that they know more than they actually do, and there is a lot of that going around.

I have had a touch of it myself, off and on over the last fifty five years of pistol shooting. That's why I have availed myself of the best defensive shooting training I could find. That training has taught me things that I did not know I did not know.

And there's surely more to be learned.
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Old March 14, 2017, 11:06 PM   #39
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My post was a very general one, directed at people just like you-who think they are smarter and more proficient than most.
No, it was a very pointed one directed at folks who do things differently than you. You essentially worded is as: I'm smarter than you, I'm better than you and you darned well better be doing it this way or your liable to get killed. That's not a topic for discussion and you're going to get posts like mine in rebuttal.

You took decent advice and made it into an ultimatum which is completely ridiculous. An experienced shooter would recognize this as a generally good idea but that it's not an end-all be-all way of doing things because people can learn to shoot and be proficient with a number of different firearms and can tell the difference when carrying one or another.

My guess is that you are a very proficient shooter but that doesn't mean the theory you buy into is the only thing going. I think mavracer hit the nail more squarely on the head than I first thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunnin...3Kruger_effect
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Old March 14, 2017, 11:14 PM   #40
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He did remark about people who think that they know more than they actually do, and there is a lot of that going around.
LOL there sure is!

Quote:
Most of us can carry anything "effectively". The important question is one of how we will react at that instant that counts, and how quickly we will draw, present, and fire.
Exactly, which is why it doesn't matter how long you've "been carrying." A post that said hey folks, practice and practice drawing your carry firearm(s) would have been extremely more informative and helpful.

Quote:
At all times? That might end up in the category of famous last words.
As much as saying you can only carry one type of firearm and that will make you more effective at drawing and firing accurately and correctly in a defense scenario, I'll give you that.
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Old March 14, 2017, 11:28 PM   #41
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No, it was a very pointed one directed at folks who do things differently than you. You essentially worded is as: I'm smarter than you, I'm better than you and you darned well better be doing it this way or your liable to get killed.
If Bill's advice were not largely the same as that of the best trainers in the field, one might interpret it hat way. But it is not just Bill who believes in what he has said here.

I suggest that trainers who observe large numbers of students trying out different techniques, and in my experience that has meant seeing the same people try different firearms or carry positions during a class for various reasons, probably do have a better grasp on this and other relevant fusions than do most of us.

Quote:
....people can learn to shoot and be proficient with a number of different firearms and can tell the difference when carrying one or another.

My guess is that you are a very proficient shooter....
That brings up something worthwhile to keep in mind.

The I. C. E. PDN trainers, including Walt Cunningham, Rob Pincus, and the others, like to distinguish between "good shooting" and the effective defensive use of a firearm, and all of that the latter entails.

The reason for what they advise relative to this issue, which is the same thing that Bill DeShivs advised in the OP, is that it does not really pertain to proficiency in shooting the firearm, or even to drawing, presenting, and shooting, when that is what the shooter has set out to do.

Rather, it has to do with what happens when a citizen is suddenly faced with an explosive, unexpected violent situation when he or she has not been expecting it.

Might I respectfully suggest that you and everyone else here who may tend to think of this in terms of "proficiency" look into one of the relevant I. C. E. PDN home study courses, or better yet, attend a class.
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Old March 14, 2017, 11:30 PM   #42
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A post that said hey folks, practice and practice drawing your carry firearm(s) would have been extremely more informative and helpful.
Helpful, yes, but it would have missed completely the key point, which is the importance of carrying the same kind of gun the same way every day.
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Old March 15, 2017, 12:00 AM   #43
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One book that is worth reading slowly and thoughtfully that is now out of print is Counter Ambush--The Science of Training for the Unexpected Defensive Shooting, by Rob Pincus. You may be able to obtain a copy.

Here's a review from Amazon:
"The title threw me. It sounded to me like something suited for soldiers entering Tikrit. When I asked the author, Rob Pincus, why he chose that title, he answered me, but I must confess that I was still not entirely sure.

"Now I understand. The title says it all.

"Think for a minute. When we leave the restaurant for the car, or leave the car for the treck across the parking lot to the supermarket, we are not knowingly heading toward a place where we know we will stand to shoot at a target, which will be located "down range", and we are not going to be given a command to shoot, and we will not be scored by a timer or a number of hits, nor will our score be reduced for misses or hits out of sequences. No! We are not heading out to shoot at all. That is the farthest thing from our minds.

"But, should the unlikely and unexpected and worst occur--an ambush--we will have to make some rapid cognitive decisions on our own, observe, react, recognize, and respond. That is not the time to rely upon improvisation. It is the time to utilize basic skills learned in training.

"As an attorney from Arkansas likes to put it, a gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

"The book goes into depth on psychology, physiological reactions and how to train, and still more on training. There is a little bit on shooting, firearms, and ammunition, but those are not really what the book is about.

"I think the book is great, but don't take my word for it. In his foreword, LTC Dave Grossman starts with "You hold in your hands one of the most important book of our kind. First, this a vital, lifesaving resource."

"Pincus spends a lot of time discussing the philosophy, the beginnings, the raison d'être, and the evolution, over the last couple of decades, of the I.C. E. Combat Focus Training course. The discussion covers the years in which it was delivered at Valhalla Shooting Cub, when key customers included SOCOM operatives and instructors from both Army and Navy units as all as agents of foreign governments.

"Let me be clear that what I think is most important about it is the knowledge it contains that could be useful to ordinary armed citizens going about their daily business, and trying their best to avoid combat."
Books are great, but training is better. and Combat Focus Training, which is available at a number of sites every year, is worth every penny.

It is extremely important to distinguish between practicing the draw and training to observe, decide, react, recognize, and respond instantly when there is no buzzer and when we have not been told where the target is.

Same or similar gun every day? Rob and others have given us their advice, and I think it likely that anyone who has gone the the Combat Focus Training course will come to the same conclusion.
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Old March 15, 2017, 12:11 AM   #44
Bill DeShivs
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Did anyone miss, "train with it until you know it's every nuance."?

And, it was not, "I'm smarter than you (though I probably am.) It was "please take this as very good advice from someone who is probably more experienced than you."

And my original post was very generalized. I have no doubt that I could PROBABLY deploy most any gun that I desired to carry- but, guess what?
I carry the same gun in the same place every day.

Maybe you can do otherwise, but my post was to give you the benefit of a lot of experience and study-and maybe even save your life.

Now- you can take my advice and do what you want with it. You have already told me what I can do with it.
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Old March 15, 2017, 12:35 AM   #45
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The OP is 100% correct! Think about it folks. Eating something with a fork is not the same as eating something with a spoon, yet we all do both frequently. But we all use fractions of a second (or more) to adapt to the change in utensils. In a life or death situation you don't want to waste a fraction of a second to remember if you have a fork or spoon - or a 1911 or a .357 3"revolver.
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Old March 15, 2017, 04:16 AM   #46
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Ambush?

Not sure if I have spoke, written about this incident here?

It happened a couple of years ago, half a mile from home, in our local Publix Grocery Store.

First let me say, shopping with my Wife is not a pastime I relish! So on this particular afternoon, I had opted out, and was reading a Library Book in the Jeep, a marked Security vehicle, my Son supplies me with a gas card, what can I say! My Wife doing the look, press, and shake routine she likes.

My Cell phone rings "There are two young guys, pants hanging, dread locks, following me about, they have no basket, or cart"

"Call me when you are at the check out line, I will be under the overhang, walk slowly out, come out of the far right door, then walk a little faster, keep close to the right wall"

That is what happened. The two not local Hoodsters were about 7 yards behind her. These two were from no were near Dr. Phillips!

They had no grocery's, the one on my left closest to the wall, my Wife was walking by, was focused on my Lady. His buddy was scanning. He saw me!

I was standing behind the Jeep, they both had hands clear of there pockets (amazing how there pants stayed up!) Scanner grabbed his buddy's arm, and they took off like rabbits, to the Road. They had no car, my Wife had the keys to their ride.

What went through my mind, my 9mm is going to be really loud! I was not that worried, I held all the surprise on my side. But 5 minutes later, the Adrenalin hit! Might have found it hard to drink a full glass of water!

Being married to paranoid Harry for twenty five years, paid off.

Told the Manager? He was mildly interested.

That same store was robbed a year later, at closing time. And yes, I walk with the love of my life now. Still carry my Glock 19 Gen 4, same place, as always.
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Old March 15, 2017, 05:55 AM   #47
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I've only ever had 3 carry guns: a 1911, an LCR, and a Glock 19. For the past 3-4 years, I carry either the LCR or the G19 about 98% of the time. (Though I do occasionally fall to the siren song of the 1911.)

For me, it's not a question about whether *somebody* could be proficient with different systems and carry locations. It's about whether *I* can. I'm 47 years old with a ~50 hour per week job and school tuition to pay. I'm lucky if I can get to the range 5 times per year. I have neither the time nor the budget to cross-train with several pistols until I develop enough muscle memory to be comfortable with all of them. So I stick to one set of controls: point and shoot.

OldMarksman -- Nice review. I wonder who that wise Arkansas lawyer could have been who said that a gunfight is not the time to learn new skills?
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Old March 15, 2017, 06:25 AM   #48
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It is likely that none of us will ever find out.
I think this is the important part. We are all arguing this from different concepts. I get the argument of stress and muscle memory. I get the concept of tunnel vision. I also get the concept that until the unforeseen actually occurs we will not know and these incidents are often not remembered clearly or spoken about often.

I propose that the person most capable of thinking his or her way through an extreme stress situation is the one most likely to come out of it alive. The problem is there is no way of knowing who this is and effectively training for it in a true life and death situation is beyond complicated.

Muscle memory is all good and fine. However I worry that taken to the extreme this is troublesome. We are discussing the split difference response time when suddenly and unexpectedly ambushed to where our mind does not think clearly. The ability when met with surprise to evaluate the threat, draw, and fire in a manner that is both effective and quick enough to defeat multiple attackers who have taken you by surprise. I'm sorry but there are levels one can train for and levels one cannot. This is the level where I simply admit I am not "winning" Multiple competent and determined attackers given the value of surprise against me are going to overcome what defenses I can muster.

That being said. There are some of you, judging by what is written here, that should make very certain none of your friends ever throw you a surprise party of any type or in any other way startle you. You might misjudge on the evaluate the threat portion and muscle memory could take over.

Edit: Please note that I started this discussion arguing that if one trains with a "complicated" firearm such as a 1911 he or she should carry a similar firearm or one less complicated. Swiping at a non-existent safety lever under muscle memory is fairly meaningless. Failing to swipe a safety is not. Switching to a safety that moves in the opposite direction could be tremendously detrimental.

Last edited by Lohman446; March 15, 2017 at 07:21 AM.
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Old March 15, 2017, 10:06 AM   #49
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Muscle memory is all good and fine.
Yes, it is only part of the picture, and a small part, at that.

Quote:
However I worry that taken to the extreme this is troublesome.
Why? What do you mean by "taken to the extreme'?

Quote:
We are discussing the split difference response time when suddenly and unexpectedly ambushed to where our mind does not think clearly.
Clear thinking is, of course, paramount.

Quote:
The ability when met with surprise to evaluate the threat, draw, and fire in a manner that is both effective and quick enough to defeat multiple attackers who have taken you by surprise.
That is not a complete sentence, and yes, there may be more than one assailant, but you have described the issue.

Quote:
Multiple competent and determined attackers given the value of surprise against me are going to overcome what defenses I can muster.
A rather defeatist attitude, I think.

Do you believe that you will be faced with a self defense situation that does not involve surprise?

Quote:
That being said. There are some of you, judging by what is written here, that should make very certain none of your friends ever throw you a surprise party of any type or in any other way startle you. You might misjudge on the evaluate the threat portion and muscle memory could take over.
I do not see that at all.
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Old March 15, 2017, 10:13 AM   #50
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Too Many Choices?

I'm not a wealthy person, my rotation contains a G26.
It was a Walther P5c but that got to be too valuable to be lost in an evidence locker should I have ever needed to use it. So, I sold it and used the proceeds to purchase the Glock, holster and extra magazines. This works for me.
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