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Old March 13, 2017, 06:55 PM   #1
Bill DeShivs
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"Carry Rotation"

I see this term a lot lately.
Please take this advice in the spirit in which it is given-from a very experienced carrier.

If you have a "carry rotation," it darned well better be 2 of the same gun, or models that are extremely similar.
I know you guys are very serious about carrying to protect your lives.
Carrying different guns-with even minute differences in manual of arms can easily get you killed.

Find a gun that works for you, train with it until you know it's every nuance, and carry it in exactly the same place and manner EVERY time you carry it.

If you ever have to USE said gun, everything should work smoothly and without a hitch. Having to think whether you are drawing a Glock or a 1911, or whether you have to disengage a safety is NOT a good thing to be doing at that point in your life.

Use your "carry rotation" around the house to see if a particular gun is worth replacing the above gun.
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Old March 13, 2017, 07:15 PM   #2
MandolinMan
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This is something that I been rethinking a lot lately. I actually started a thread on this very subject last year and turned out that many of those who responded carry multiple platforms and didn't consider it much of a problem.

I tend to think that there's much wisdom in your post. Its a subject that certainly deserves consideration.
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Old March 13, 2017, 07:22 PM   #3
Targa
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I think that is sound advice.
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Old March 13, 2017, 07:30 PM   #4
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I carry three different guns depending on weather and clothing. All have the same manual of arms. Point, pull trigger, bang. No safeties. I am highly proficient with each.
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Old March 13, 2017, 08:05 PM   #5
Dfariswheel
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Other then when testing a new holster design I was working on, I always tended to follow the John Bianchi Rule:
"One gun, One holster, One carry".

As above, a fast way to die is reaching for your 1911 in the strong side IWB, only to find that that day you're carrying a Glock in a cross draw.
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Old March 13, 2017, 08:41 PM   #6
DPris
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This is a subject that frequently draws strong opinions.

In my case, I do NOT have a "carry rotation".
My defensive shield is not a clothing accessory & not an "opportunity" to wear a number of guns I "like".

One standard pistol for normal belt carry, one small .380 pocket pistol for particular situations that indicate it, and a Smith J-Frame as a pocket gun with more steam than the .380 when situations dictate.
That's for in-town uses, and while I may technically "rotate", it's based on the outing, not the gun collection.

Heavier firepower is added on wilderness excursions.

Switching around between greatly different operating systems is not my idea of the best efficiency under stress.
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Old March 13, 2017, 08:44 PM   #7
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Amen, DPris.......from a carrier of over 40 years.
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Old March 13, 2017, 08:54 PM   #8
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I have a carry rotation:

Colt 1911

Para-Ordnance 1911

Caspian 1911

The Para is a smaller, lightweight model that's good for when I don't feel like carrying an all-steel pistol. All three have triggers set at 4-1/2 to 5 pounds, and (obviously) they all have the same manual of arms.
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Old March 13, 2017, 08:59 PM   #9
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I don't have a "rotation" list of guns but I do have four different handguns that I carry depending on circumstances, three are "point and shoot" while the fourth is a 1911. I have never and I mean never confused the manual of arms for the gun I was carrying.

But what do I know, I've only been carrying a gun on a daily basis for 42 years, 20 in the military and 22 so far in law enforcement. Incredibly enough I've even deployed rifles and shotguns as tools of my trade to make the matter even more complex.
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Old March 13, 2017, 10:17 PM   #10
OldMarksman
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Very good advice, Bill!

Quote:
I have never and I mean never confused the manual of arms for the gun I was carrying.
It really isn't a matter of "confusing the manual of arms". It is the issue of speed.
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Old March 13, 2017, 10:31 PM   #11
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I only carry one of my HK P2000, both with LEM triggers, but I compete in steel challenge with a 9mm 1911. We have no Commander 1911s in 9mm available in CA and I deliberately bought the HK to have a trigger that was dramatically different.

I practice with both at speed, but 95+% of my practice is naturally with the 1911. The muscle memory for the 1911 is so associated with the draw in steel challenge that there is little chance of confusing the manual of arms. On the very rare occasion when I go to a regular range I often bring the 1911 up on the target forgetting to off the safety since that manipulation is totally associated with the draw. I wouldn't personally have multiple gun types in a rotation, but seems to work for a lot of folks.

It's fortunate that the HK has a grip angle similar to a 1911. On the rare occasion I've tried out a Glock my initial sight picture is about 10 degrees above the target.
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Old March 13, 2017, 10:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
I practice with both at speed, but.... The muscle memory for the 1911 is so associated with the draw in steel challenge that there is little chance of confusing the manual of arms. On the very rare occasion when I go to a regular range....
All of those circumstances involve drawing and shooting when we are planning to draw and shoot--and thinking about the gun.

What concerns me is having to react timely and effectively to an ambush that takes place as a complete surprise from an unexpected direction.

Heck, I worry about whether I will be able to do that at all. Adding any complication--a different kind of shirt, for example--could lead to a slight delay.

Full disclosure: on occasion, I switch from OWB to IWB. And very rarely, I carry an Officer's 1911 type pistol instead of an XDS wit ha gip safely.

Not sure it is a good idea to do so, but once in a while, I do.
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Old March 14, 2017, 06:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
What concerns me is having to react timely and effectively to an ambush that takes place as a complete surprise from an unexpected direction.
While I agree with the reasoning the OP suggests I think it could be overstated. If one carries, for instance, 1911's and striker fired firearms without a manual safety there is no danger presented in swiping a non-existent safety. The concern I would have is training in a way that does not involve disengaging the safety or manual safeties that move in different directions.

As to the idea that one is going to be able to respond to an unexpected ambush... you are really hoping for either undetermined or incompetent attackers. Competent and determined attackers taking a single victim by surprise are likely to overcome any defenses he or she may muster. This idea that is floated that one can effectively respond to this perfect ambush is not within the realm of probability in my mind.
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Old March 14, 2017, 07:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Find a gun that works for you, train with it until you know it's every nuance, and carry it in exactly the same place and manner EVERY time you carry it.
Pretty good advice...Rod
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Old March 14, 2017, 07:59 AM   #15
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Quote:
As to the idea that one is going to be able to respond to an unexpected ambush... you are really hoping for either undetermined or incompetent attackers. Competent and determined attackers taking a single victim by surprise are likely to overcome any defenses he or she may muster. This idea that is floated that one can effectively respond to this perfect ambush is not within the realm of probability in my mind.
It is, however, the reason why citizens carry firearms for self protection.
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Old March 14, 2017, 09:41 AM   #16
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I carry one gun, a Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt. But I do have an alternate for the days I work out with my main .45. So, basically, one gun.

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Old March 14, 2017, 11:19 AM   #17
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I only carry snub-nosed revolvers but my methods of carry change quite a bit depending upon what I'm wearing. Pocket carry seems to be my "go to" favorite. Most of the time, my method of carry prevents a speedy draw, so if end up in a duel with Wyatt Earp, I'm in big trouble.
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Old March 14, 2017, 11:24 AM   #18
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Quote:
Having to think whether you are drawing a Glock or a 1911, or whether you have you disengage a safety is NOT a good thing to be doing at that point in your life.
I find this extremely amusing, the idea is laughable that a person can't be competent enough to switch back and forth, the Dunning–Kruger effect is certainly in play here.

If someone has unconscious competence with a 1911 the safety will be automatically swept as part of the draw stroke, this isn't affected by drawing a Glock.

If someone doesn't have unconscious competence with a 1911, it's a training issue.
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Old March 14, 2017, 11:37 AM   #19
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Quote:
If someone has unconscious competence with a 1911 the safety will be automatically swept as part of the draw stroke, this isn't affected by drawing a Glock.
I know I "swipe the safety" when I fire striker fired semi-automatics because I consciously assure that is how I train with them. Because I do sometimes carry a Glock in place of my P938 I make sure to train motion to the most "complex". I think you are largely correct on this - its not as big a deal as it is made out to be.

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Old March 14, 2017, 12:12 PM   #20
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"...this term a lot lately..." Lotta that since the Internet was invented. Lotta people overthink everything.
"...react timely and effectively to an ambush..." You need to stay away from those places you think you're going to be ambushed. You are not going into combat when you take the dog for a walk or go to the movies.
"...even minute differences..." You'd have to be really unlucky to get killed over it, but it happens in the shooting games. Had to switch from my 870 to a loaner Win 2200, I think it was, in the middle of a plate shoot. Different length stroke caused a very loud CLICK when there should have been a loud BANG.
"...laughable that a person can't be competent enough to..." Isn't a competence thing. It's a muscle memory thing. Ever drive a proper standard transmission then get into a girly automatic? Your left foot will automatically go for the clutch pedal and you'll be waving your right hand where the shift lever. It takes a conscious thought to switch. Same thing can happen with firearms.
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Old March 14, 2017, 12:21 PM   #21
mavracer
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Quote:
Isn't a competence thing. It's a muscle memory thing.
I'd suggest you go look up the definition of unconscious competence.
Quote:
Your left foot will automatically go for the clutch pedal
Much like when I switch to my XD this causes no issues
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Old March 14, 2017, 12:25 PM   #22
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I will carry 1911s and guns with a similar manual of arms like the Sig P238. I will also carry a couple of different handguns that have no active safety and requires only a pull of the trigger. I agree with those who say it is not a problem if you swipe down for a safety on a revolver in the event your muscle memory takes over. I either carry at the 3:30-4:00 position or in a pocket holster.
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Old March 14, 2017, 12:33 PM   #23
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I carry three different handguns. A GP 100 for woods carry, and an SR9c or LCP for concealed carry. The striker fired compact 9 has an external thumb​ safety. The gen 2 LCP is hammer fired with a long DAO trigger, and no safety. I am comfortable with these platforms and do not consider myself at risk because of the differences.
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Old March 14, 2017, 12:53 PM   #24
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Although I do sometimes carry a different gun my standard carry is my 357. I have carried it for 45 years, practiced with it, competed with it and even hunted with it. I have several holsters but my carry holster is a shoulder holster which is what I train with more than any other. If you have never had to draw your gun under the stress of life risk then you don't know for sure you will do it right. I have. All my training, the muscle memory and the subconscious recognition of the target, what was behind it and the entire field of sight all works.
I have never tried that with my 45 Colt but I know the grips are different and I doubt that I would be able to point instinctively with it. For those of you who rotate guns try to shoot your gun at a target 7 yards away from the waist just to see if you really know the different guns.
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Old March 14, 2017, 01:24 PM   #25
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I agree. It's funny what you will do by muscle memory. For me personally.

I always said I would slingshot the slide under "stress" but used the slide lock in practice......no matter what I told myself before the buzzer went off.......yep used the button.

I like and prefer paddle mag releases or at least a button on my trigger finger side. I prefer using my trigger finger to drop mags. (Smaller hands). When I am shooting normal mag releases.........yep I go for the paddle / trigger finger side button instinctively.

Decocking. I cut my teeth on TDA type guns (SIGS etc). I find myself "decocking" a great many striker pistols before holstering / on first shot etc. I have generally migrated back to hammer fired TDA so I tend to want to "decock" Glocks instinctively.

Riding the hammer into a holster. I ride the Glock hammer too.

Point is none of this is under stress and I still do it. Hence my bedside gun is a HK P2000 V3 .40, my carry gun is an HK P2000 V3 .40. My upstairs gun is an HK P2000 V3 9mm my itty bitty sometimes carry is an HK P2000sk V3 9mm.

I have lots of guns and I shoot for fun and it's my hobby. I don't "train" per say for violence and I shoot a wide variety of guns. That being said even I see the critical benefit of the one gun/one platform for any kind of serious use. For me it's HK V3 guns. Paddles, big slide locks and decockers. I enjoy them the most, I shoot them the most and that manual of arms is what's ingrained into me.

GAHHH if I had to swipe a safety off under the stress of a timer I would miss it damn near most of the time and I would have to train like hell to be ingrain it even though I always shoot 1911s first shot from safe...........right after I decock them.
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