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Old March 11, 2017, 01:42 PM   #1
stonewall50
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Training from Contact

I am by training and hobby...a martial artist. I train a lot of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo because it is my primary hobby. I spar in my gym and so on. So I'm not a "limited" fighter. But I always ask myself how to improve that training. So one thing i am curious about is what kinds of drills and skills I can run for contact shooting? Standing and even from the ground?

I know when I come up with "scenarios," the only ways I can find myself actually getting involved in a shooting is going to be that point blank face to face type shooting because it would take a lot to get me to draw down. So I am wondering what I can try to do to step up my training at that range.


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Old March 11, 2017, 02:21 PM   #2
fastbolt
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If someone were to come to you and ask what they could do to "step up their training" in BJJ & Judo on their own, but without ever having received any formal training, what would you tell them?

I began my arts training in '71, and it's been a serious interest and passion ever since.

While I've been shooting since I was a youngster, it wasn't until I'd been in LE for approx 8 years, when I became a firearms instructor, that I realized there had been a lot of gaps in my firearms training and skills, which I was finally able to address during my training, initial and recurrent, as a firearms instructor.

Have you received any formal firearms training?

If not, perhaps you might benefit from doing so.

As you already know from your arts training, it's difficult to know what to safely practice, and how to practice it, until you've gained some practical knowledge from someone trained, and experienced, to teach whatever it is you wish to learn and practice.

You don't know what you don't know, and you don't know if any "practice" will be building and developing good skills, or reinforcing improper or counter productive habits.

Besides, you might really enjoy attending a class or two. It might not only address your questions about practicing what you learn in training, but it might also reveal any shortcomings or undesirable qualities or characteristics regarding your selection of equipment for your intended application and roles.
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Old March 11, 2017, 05:01 PM   #3
ShootistPRS
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StoneWall,
I had about a year and a half in Karate when I realized that attaining any worthwhile degree in the sport meant that I could not use it in most self defense situations because it is legally the use of a lethal weapon. What really brought it home to me was when we were told the limits of the sport by our instructor. I recognized right away that if Karate was useless against an opponent twice your size or anyone with a gun, I decided I needed a gun. Simply taking a traditional ready stance can make the use of deadly force against you acceptable. It just seemed better to have the best defense I could.

Judo and Jujitsu are great training and good self defense arts but if you are at a level that you are able to use either or both on the street you are endangering yourself legally. Your conditions of use are the same as using deadly force. In any confrontation that you can use your training, you could legally use a gun.

This advice was given to me a long time ago and it might be out of date so check the laws where you live.
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Old March 11, 2017, 06:22 PM   #4
oldandslow
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stonewall,

For pistol training at contact distances you need to take a course called Extreme Close Quarters Concepts run by an instructor named Craig Douglas. Info can be found at www.shivworks.com. Craig is a former Ranger, SWAT officer and Brazilian jujitsu practitioner who gives two and a half day courses around the country and overseas. Using Glock simunition pistols you learn how to engage, disengage and function from contact positions while standing, on the ground and with multiple aggressors. I've taken the course twice and it is excellent but expect to get sore and bruised as the training is as realistic as possible without being dangerous to the students.

good luck- oldandslow
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Old March 18, 2017, 02:38 PM   #5
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My martial arts training is pretty limited, and therefore simple: Don't go to Sears, or any part of that town if possible. Racially profile the dark ones. Substance profile the pasty, pierced, inked up ones. Ignore panhandlers and avoid all trouble. Watch out for old ladies backing out. Smell -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- before you step in it. Angry old white guys don't need more skills. Look like you know where you're going, disagreeable as all hell. MAGA
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Old March 18, 2017, 05:58 PM   #6
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I had about a year and a half in Karate when I realized that attaining any worthwhile degree in the sport meant that I could not use it in most self defense situations because it is legally the use of a lethal weapon.
In what states is that a "law"? Or is it a Federal "law"?
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Old March 18, 2017, 10:02 PM   #7
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
I know when I come up with "scenarios," the only ways I can find myself actually getting involved in a shooting is going to be that point blank face to face type shooting because it would take a lot to get me to draw down. So I am wondering what I can try to do to step up my training at that range.
Hate to say this but how do you 'come up with' scenarios were you only shoot to defend your life at extreme close range?

The assailant could easy engage you at ranges farther than elbow distance. Your significant other or a family member may be the victim at ranges farther than elbow distance. The assailant may have a gun and decide to start a-shooting farther than elbow distance.

Oh, and I say this being a 5th dan World Taekwondo Federation as well as JKD and Krav Maga practitioner (with a touch of Wing Chun, Kali, and escrima.) I am also a graduate of several defensive shooting schools as well as a long time IDPA/IPSC shooter.

See life many times does not follow a scenario. Don't expect certain situations and outcomes and you won't be disappointed when totally new ones crop up you never foresaw.... at distances farther than 'point blank face-to-face'.

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Old March 18, 2017, 10:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
I know when I come up with "scenarios," the only ways I can find myself actually getting involved in a shooting is going to be that point blank face to face type shooting because it would take a lot to get me to draw down. So I am wondering what I can try to do to step up my training at that range.
Pay attention to what Deaf Smith said.

If someone is about to do great harm to you, defend yourself. That is likely to start occurring at greater than "point blank face to face" distance.
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Old March 19, 2017, 06:23 AM   #9
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Training was not really required, when in School. Born in 1935 in Liverpool UK, the war started in 1939. So bombers, and fighter planes over Liverpool Docks became a common sight in the early 40s? Me 6? 8? YOA. Prescot was 8 miles from the Docks and the river Mersey, and the Irish Sea.

I was the tallest kid in my class, had my first fight, serious one, when I was 15, not long before I left School, and started work. After that not very successful altercation, I went to a Boxing club, ran by Catholic Priests!

Learned the art of the straight left, and right cross. But it was not till 1960, that I became a proficient scrapper. A friend of mine from Telefusion, a TV Rental Company, Tony Delaney, introduced me to his Brother, Paddy Delaney, Chief Bouncer at the Cavern Club, of Beatles Fame!

I worked there (part time, a Wife who did not work, outside the house that is, hence the need for extra cash) 1960 till 1964, Thur/Fri/Sat nights, 7 till 11-30 more or less. Then a year at a Night Club, The Blue Angel. On Seal St.

I cultivated a Street Fighting skill. On the job training? And kept my nice straight nose, straight (Even now at 81!) because dropping in to the Grapes for a few pints was not on the cards for me.
The main skill I became real good at, instant recognition of impending trouble. And the correct response to it.

That right hook to the sweet spot, his lower left jaw, was a light switch par excellence. The straight left? broke noses, and gave the extra stand off, with groups of 4 or 5. Out for a good? Night out. Side foot kicks to the shin or knee, were part of the sudden deescalation techniques.

The doorway from Matthew Street was only around 4 feet wide, that helped, no easy way behind us. From England, to Australia, to Canada. The Family of 4 journeyed, culminating in a Second Wife, now of 25 happy years, extremely happy years.
Running my own training School in teaching Security, and Police to shoot people! For over 22 years. The first non Police Officer to do so in Ontario Canada. I did not teach a safety training program, that most taught.

Just a straight out from holster to double taps (S&W mod 10s/64s/65s) two hands, and one. Then Glock's, in 9mm.

Each year my Students returned for a refresher (Re-Qualifier?) Using their own firearms, and first 18 rounds of the carried for a year duty Ammo.
Never a misfire, with the year old rounds. Then 100 approx. rounds of my reloads, drills of walking, turning from left right, and back to the targets.

My Targets were modified IPSC Targets, 15m max distance, any misses, a fail, test was 20 rounds, 6 rounds in Revolver, two speed loads, last two rounds, loaded by hand. 6 ft head shots! A very simple program. Head shots are still not taught in Florida, for Security Officers.
Not even to Police in Ontario Canada, till 2004!
Do you all remember the KISS Principle? Keep it Simple, Stupid! It works.

Max students in a Class, 8, two lines of 4, all indoor ranges. Not from benches, walking free.

Do you all remember the KISS Principle? Keep it Simple, Stupid! It work's.

Came for a month in the Sun, in 2003? To visit my Son, been here ever since!

We love the USA!
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Old March 19, 2017, 09:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
I had about a year and a half in Karate when I realized that attaining any worthwhile degree in the sport meant that I could not use it in most self defense situations because it is legally the use of a lethal weapon.
Why might you think that the use of deadly force in "most self defense situations" would be unlawful?
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Old March 20, 2017, 09:29 AM   #11
Lohman446
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This is my experience from training with a Kenpo instructor who was open to new ideas. At contact distance giving up one hand to reach for a concealed weapon gives your opponent enough of an advantage that said weapon will likely not come into play directly. Granted these were trained opponents during sparring but you need to create at least some distance to effectively deploy and use a firearm.
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Old March 20, 2017, 10:24 AM   #12
Brit
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Lohman446

Good advice! You see this repeated 1000 time on any of the Cop live shows on TV. The instant a uniformed Officer steps from a patrol car, handgun is in hand, as they run to the action area!

Their most useful hand is tied up, with a tool, one that shoots projectiles, and that's all. The presence of that tool in hand, even causes running to be impeded!

And if the firearm has a flashlight mounted on it, every one in the vicinity in the dark, has a loaded gun pointed at them, for the sake of illumination, including little old Lady's, and kids, fellow Officers!

When I worked Armed Security, my Glock 19 had no light mounted, my Surefire was in a belt holster, next to my G17 spare magazine.

Under an outside the pants shirt, still the same. Left side has spare G17 magazine, closest to belt buckle, behind the mag. my Surefire light.

Last edited by Brit; March 21, 2017 at 06:12 AM.
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Old March 21, 2017, 10:13 AM   #13
5thShock
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For those who will not be training hand to hand we could at least consider making our default draw end close to the body instead of fully extended in the isosceles or Weaver. Give yourself the option of firing off the top of the holster if you have to.
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Old March 22, 2017, 02:09 PM   #14
James K
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If I understand correctly, the so called "martial arts" were developed primarily by people who were prohibited from owning or carrying guns and in some cases knives or even impact weapons. If one can carry a gun, and can use it, why would he choose any of the "weaponless" systems?

It has been argued that since the "martial arts" don't involve weapons, killing an opponent will be considered by the authorities as sort of "benign" and will not involve the arrest of the killer. Nope. Anyone who believes that needs to talk to a lawyer.

Jim
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Old March 22, 2017, 02:39 PM   #15
Lohman446
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There are different origins of the martial arts. The standard Okinawan arts, and the weapons that were developed with them, were a result of prohibition to weapons and as such what we think of as the weapons were derived from common farming implements.
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Old March 22, 2017, 09:52 PM   #16
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
If I understand correctly, the so called "martial arts" were developed primarily by people who were prohibited from owning or carrying guns and in some cases knives or even impact weapons. If one can carry a gun, and can use it, why would he choose any of the "weaponless" systems?
Not all. Most like in Korea, Japan, and Okinawa, were as a result of 'peasants' not allowed to own or carry weapons (not just guns.) They gravitated to either H2H arts or some utilizing common farm equipment. There are exceptions. Jiu Jitsu was used by the Japanese Samurai to, if no better weapon was available, to throw their weapon bearing opponent and disable them.

On the other hand European martial arts, like fencing, were developed as a result of wars and duels.

We learn weaponless systems cause some time we can't or won't carry guns OR our guns become inoperative OR we are to close to utilize our guns.

Deaf
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Old March 25, 2017, 10:32 AM   #17
rburch
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I know when I come up with "scenarios," the only ways I can find myself actually getting involved in a shooting is going to be that point blank face to face type shooting because it would take a lot to get me to draw down.
Sorry, but I see your thinking here to be flawed.

By your own admission you are well versed in fighting up close, and the reality is when you are that close drawing your gun is rarely the best solution.

You are much better off using your empty hand skills to gain control of your attacker before you attempt to access any defensive tool.

Where you are most likely to need to shoot will be out beyond 2 arms reach, where you can't easily respond with other techniques.

That said there certainly are situations where you might have to draw and engage in close quarters.

Be aware this type of training carries higher risk than a basic pistol class does, and therefore the best advice is to seek out training from a qualified instructor.

Someone already mentioned Craig Douglas, and I know Rob Pincus has a similar class, but I don't see it on his schedule at the moment.

Rob also sells an Extreme Close Quarters Concepts DVD at the ICE Training store may help you.

A dvd IS NOT a substitute for real training, but it would help you understand the concepts you are dealing with.
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Old March 25, 2017, 08:28 PM   #18
agtman
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Rob also sells an Extreme Close Quarters Concepts DVD at the ICE Training store may help you. * * * A dvd IS NOT a substitute for real training, but it would help you understand the concepts you are dealing with.
So would a John Wick film on DVD - but it will be much more entertaining, not to mention more instructive in CQB-combatives than, say, a Steven Seagal film.
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