The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 4, 2015, 09:21 AM   #26
Tactical Jackalope
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,249
Quote:
I am not likely to pull a handgun to prevent or stop a fist fight
Good. Two people that I don't know are fighting? Good on them. Keep it clean. I don't know how I'd feel about head bashing into the concrete.

Quote:
I dont consider 6 people beating on me to be a fist fight
Amen, and if they find that gun......

Quote:
I dont think anything good will come from a badguy taking my gun
Nothing good will come out of it at all. Only bad.

Quote:
I have been in a several fist fights and never sustaining serious injury..if this situation is something dramatically different and dramatically more dangerous, I should be able to explain that very easily.
Is a busted nose considered serious injury? I still can't breathe through my left nostril... I should get that check out sometime.






My take is to try to avoid physical a altercation at all times while carrying your handgun. Even if you mean good, you can't pretend to know what'll happen. I've seen way too many people get knocked out cold by a cousin, brother, friend, uncle, or random person that passes by for trying to break up a fight. Or even help the downed person up. Just stay situationally aware of the surroundings.

Things can go way too many different ways. I named just a few of the hundreds. Be careful!
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Tactical Jackalope is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 10:07 AM   #27
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,305
Quote:
Absent sufficient evidence to show justification, it sure could.

Do read the sticky, and sleep on it.
I wasn't too worried about the justification evidence thing--a guy across the street had recently be shot--and a teenage boy had been ambushed and shot and killed at the end on my block--not to mention other shootings I had seen within 2 blocks of my home. Pretty much an urban war zone.

In retrospect--the mere fact that in both cases the "trespassers" simply left without any explanation of why they were on my property to begin with kind of tells the story. Again--it's one of those "you had to be there to make the call" kind of things. Funny how in neither case the guys didn't call in a complaint to LE.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 10:38 AM   #28
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
Posted by g.willikers:
Quote:
We shouldn't let fear of legal repercussions inhibit us to the point that we're afraid to act in our own defense.
Or leave us indecisive until it's way too late.
Like the old adage sez (I like old adages) it's better to be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6.
Sounds corny but kind of true in many cases.
Lets not let thoughts of justifying our actions cloud our abilities to survive.
First things first.
We should avoid unlawfully threatening or using force. If for some people it is "fear of legal repercussions" that "inhibits" such criminal behavior, so be it.

The defender naturally believes that he is the "good guy", but there is no reason whatsoever to believe that those twelve who may judge him will have any reason to see things that way. The victim (and that will be the proper term) and his associates will clean up well, and they will present a different story. They may have long rap sheets, but unless the records were relevant and, in a all but a couple of jurisdictions, known to the defender, the twelve doing the judging will never know about them. And very importantly, any witnesses who happen to have been present probably noticed nothing that happened before the shots were fired.

In Post #15, serf 'rett provided two links. I strongly agree--everyone here should study them.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 11:39 AM   #29
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,447
^^^
More reason to seek good training for surviving deadly encounters.
Well trained folks are much less likely to make poor decisions and face long term consequences.
But there's no avoidance of the fact that to be able to deal with those consequences, whether they are the result of good or bad choices, one has to be there and not six feet under.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 11:43 AM   #30
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
Posted by g.willikers:
Quote:
Well trained folks are much less likely to make poor decisions and face long term consequences.
Yes indeed.

They are also more apt to carry out their decisions effectively.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 12:07 PM   #31
grey.ghost
Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koda94 View Post
from a legal standpoint you just admitted you didn’t have any reason to justify drawing your gun.

There is a lot in this scenario that begs for questions but I don’t think the focus here should be about if you can draw. There should be no question about that...

my take is to work on what to do when someone your not comfortable with attempts to enter your personal space. I occasionally refer to this article for managing unknown contacts: http://web.archive.org/web/201205222...SNContacts.pdf
Good read.
grey.ghost is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 12:18 PM   #32
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,244
These kind of scenario based questions come up alot when ive trained everyday citizens.

My response is usually based around the use of ALTERNATIVE force measures. The legal justification needed to deploy some OC is MUCH lower then that needed to use a firearm.

Additionally, the use of the OC and the subsequent reaction of the aggressors can speak volumes to their mindset.

By no means am i advocating the use of OC as a substitute for a firearm. If its time to shoot... Then SHOOT. But, for these types of gray areas, where justification for the use of deadly force is in question, a blast of good quality Pepper Spray into the assailant (or group of assailants) is easier to justify and has lighter legal ramifications if you are wrong.

The saying..." If all you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail" applies here.
Options are ALWAYS good if properly applied. OC is not the proper response if facing an lethal threat, but for the in between stuff its a nice option to have
Sharkbite is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 12:27 PM   #33
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
Excellent points, Sharkbite.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 01:20 PM   #34
Tactical Jackalope
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,249
I recommend a book to all of you. So people can get a better understanding.

A citizens guide to: Force Decisions
By Rory Miller

One of the best books I've ever read on the matter.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Tactical Jackalope is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 02:52 PM   #35
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
Posted by stagpanther:
Quote:
I wasn't too worried about the justification evidence thing--a guy across the street had recently be shot--and a teenage boy had been ambushed and shot and killed at the end on my block--not to mention other shootings I had seen within 2 blocks of my home. Pretty much an urban war zone.
None of that obviates the need for evidence in a defense of justication by one iota.

Quote:
In retrospect--the mere fact that in both cases the "trespassers" simply left without any explanation of why they were on my property to begin with kind of tells the story.
It tells absolutely nothing.

Quote:
Again--it's one of those "you had to be there to make the call" kind of things.
Maybe, but a good general rule is to not even think about presenting a weapon in a case of mere trespass. That can be a real problem if the proper owner had gone forth to confront the trespasser. Legally, the trespasser might well be justified in the use of deadly force in self defense against the property owner.

Quote:
Funny how in neither case the guys didn't call in a complaint to LE.
Good thing for you, but had someone else witnessed it and assume that you were a felon....
OldMarksman is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 05:45 PM   #36
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,816
its not about being afraid to act.. its about common sense and not seeing every problem as a nail while you carry a hammer.

There are plenty of people who seem to consider every hostile misdeed as a gun pulling situation. Few situations may warrant that level of force but (generally), most do not.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 06:46 PM   #37
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
Posted by FireForged:
Quote:
its not about being afraid to act.. its about common sense and not seeing every problem as a nail while you carry a hammer.
Exactly!

Quote:
There are plenty of people who seem to consider every hostile misdeed as a gun pulling situation. Few situations may warrant that level of force but (generally), most do not
On the web, so it would seem. In real life probably not so many---I hope.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old September 4, 2015, 07:21 PM   #38
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,305
I'm done. You guys can carry on without me.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 29, 2015, 11:31 AM   #39
tedbeau
Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2015
Posts: 54
Quote:
How about backing up if possible and issuing a direct command, something like "Stop, don't come any closer or I will treat you as a threat."

In a public space, one may not prevent someone from coming close t, and telling someone minding his own business that one will "treat" him "as a threat" would be a very poor idea indeed, unless there were a clear indication of danger--say, the person approaching is hiding something in his hand that could be a weapon.


Quote:
Then, if they continue to close on you, you will know their intentions, without any doubt, and act accordingly.
I think g.willikers is right about this, If you issue a command like "Stop' don't come any closer, your making my concerned" a "Reasonable person" would expect a reasonable non-threat to stop and not advance. If you have the time and distance you should add, "if you come any closer I'll be forced to defend myself". This has two advantages, One if there are other eye-witnesses around it shows you tried to de-escalate, and that you were indeed in fear for your safety, and two it shows a "reasonable man" that they were obviously intending harm because they continued to advance after you told them you would defend against such action. By only saying you would defend yourself you are not threating them with your gun. If they stop, they might not even have a clue that you were armed, if they continue then they would find out soon enough.

Last edited by tedbeau; September 29, 2015 at 11:43 AM.
tedbeau is offline  
Old September 29, 2015, 02:31 PM   #40
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
Posted by tedbeau:
Quote:
If you issue a command like "Stop' don't come any closer, your making my concerned" a "Reasonable person" would expect a reasonable non-threat to stop and not advance.
And that might be okay, if the person to whom you are talking is otherwise acting in a manner unmistakably consistent with that of a likely assailant, with no other plausible explanation of his actions.

For example, if you are alone and fueling your car, and you are approached by a pedestrian who is clearly not an employee of the station walking in a direction that leads only to you, and he has one hand concealed behind him, you might well have a legitimate reason to ask him to keep his distance.

If he might be an employee of the station, you would be taking a chance. If he is, you could get into real trouble.

As Craig points out, if you are using an ATM and someone approaches, you have to ask yourself whether he is after your money or coming over to withdraw his own after you have finished your business.

And you had better not be wrong.

If you are on a public sidewalk, you had better not "issue a command" unless there is some indication that that person does in fact present an immediate threat to you.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old October 1, 2015, 11:50 AM   #41
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,783
Quote:
As Craig points out, if you are using an ATM and someone approaches, you have to ask yourself whether he is after your money or coming over to withdraw his own after you have finished your business.
Etiquette demands the next person is still on the sidewalk or at least 8 or 10 feet away from you, depending on ATM placement, certainly still outside, if the ATM is mounted in a vestibule. I've had a few go-arounds with ATM "customers" in the past. The ones with their cards in their hands, especially those still on the sidewalk are, of course, the least of my worries, normally. Others have come right up behind me, and those I'll turn to face. Usually it's "I'm next!" or something like that, and I'll respond with "Not until you give me some space!" The ones with their cards in hand will usually say, "Oh, sorry" and back off, others with both hands in pockets or simply questionable in another way, will generally either harrumph and back off, cuss and simply leave, or in one case, take it a step further. In that case, the guy asked me who the hell I thought I was. I responded, "Somebody that doesn't want anybody looking over their shoulder while I am punching in information!" He softened a bit and backed off quite a bit, but I still glanced at him every couple seconds. He did use the machine after me, as I was getting in my car. Another time at the same ATM, I was just pulling money out and noticed some guys out of the corner of my eye appearing at the corner of the building and one starting to divert from the sidewalk toward me. I spun around putting my hand on my gun and he immediately angled back to his buddies with a look of bewilderment on his face, and they kept walking as if nothing was ever planned. I hate ATMs that are placed in this way, even though they are put there with the intention that it is a busy street, and so many witnesses. Problem is, criminals are getting bolder all the time. The ATMs I frequent now are both drive-up, and I prefer them far more than what I was used to in the Detroit area. Also, a far better area, but I'm still watching my mirrors all the time.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old October 1, 2015, 08:28 PM   #42
Big Shrek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: NorthWest Florida
Posts: 1,330
Situational awareness is key.

Training for something other than gunplay is also key.
Martial arts, ANY, is better than not being trained at all.
I've seen old Tai Chi dudes kick royal buttock...you'd never imagine they could
So join the nearest to your home, or the one that you think looks the best...doesn't matter.
Just get trained. You can always get More training. Learn the basics, then improve.
Find what works for you and learn it inside out.

Next...weight training.
I'm here to tell you that it is a huge help, just don't go overboard.
Low Weight, High reps. Low weight, High Reps. Low Weight, High Reps. Make it your mantra.
Used to be massive, as in Lou Ferrigno massive...
now due to High Weight, as many Reps as possible, I've got Degenerative Disc Disease.
Found out the same results could have been achieved by supersets and low weights,
and there would have been no DDD, no pain, and a better health outlook for my Golden Years.

And unless you WANT heart problems, don't mess with Steroids.
Ever wonder why all those Pro Bodybuilders & Wrestlers kick off around 50??
That's Why.
__________________
Marlin Specialist
Calico Specialist
A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.
Big Shrek is offline  
Old October 3, 2015, 11:01 PM   #43
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,783
Quote:
Situational awareness is key.

Training for something other than gunplay is also key.
Martial arts, ANY, is better than not being trained at all.
Couldn't agree more. Boxing, wrestling, body building in the past, and currently looking for Tai Chi in the area. Can still handle myself better than most my age, but seem to have lost a lot since my late 40s.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old October 3, 2015, 11:08 PM   #44
Slimjim9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2015
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie-Ray
The ATMs I frequent now are both drive-up, and I prefer them far more than what I was used to in the Detroit area. Also, a far better area, but I'm still watching my mirrors all the time.
I've always disliked ATMs and hardly ever use them anymore now that almost everywhere I shop takes plastic and the fact that you can get cash back from groceries, Target, etc.
Slimjim9 is offline  
Old October 14, 2015, 01:23 PM   #45
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpanther
Let's say you are carrying and 1 or more aggressive individual perceive that you are armed--and decide that you're an easy mark taking you on and attempting to disarm you and take your weapon. Essentially--within the 6 or 7 ft personal space zone they are a potential but "unproven" threat.
Can you articulate to a jury how someone attempting to draw a gun at you poses an immediate, potentially lethal threat? Can you articulate that it doesn't matter whether the gun they're trying to draw is on their belt or yours?

Related: If you're being attacked by someone within arm's reach, you don't have a gun, y'all have a gun. It's probably best if it stays in the holster until you've bought enough space to make it just your gun again.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10678 seconds with 8 queries