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Old August 27, 2015, 10:45 AM   #26
TimSr
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Does anyone think their handloads are better than factory ammunition?
Yes, and I save buckets of money too.
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Old August 27, 2015, 11:11 AM   #27
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Oh, come on! You're hoarding guns. For every two guns you have, there's some poor defenseless soul out there with no gun.

I sometimes say to people that I often have to decide whether to buy another gun or to sell them all. Of course, there are other options, although not many. One is to trade them all for just one. Many things prevent that from happening.

One is, I like what I have, of course.
And another is, there are other guns I haven't owned already, although I've owned a lot of really good ones, plus some that really weren't as good as their reputation (in my opinion).
And yet another is that when you have guns, you accumulate accessories that don't fit other guns. Things like magazines, holsters and of course ammunition.

But I'm getting on in years and it would be nice to have something really special (by my standards, at least). No one I'm related to cares for guns particularly, especially my son who spend 15 months in Iraq. So there's none of this business of a special hand-me-down gun. It still needs to be practical, of course, and it only needs to be in a caliber for which I have a supply of ammunition. That's virtually no limitation at all right there, though. But it has to be a handgun.

I think I really want it to be a Colt. A real Colt.

Whaddya think?
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Old August 27, 2015, 02:32 PM   #28
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knockdown power!!!

Yes! This myth is starting to fade, albeit slowly.
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Old August 27, 2015, 03:00 PM   #29
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"Knockdown power" has been discussed for decades. I suspect that the doubters have never been knocked down.

I believe there is such a thing as "knockdown power," only not like it's depicted in the movies--or at bowling pin shoots. The real problem is, I think, that it's not predictable and probably not something that can be relied on. In fact, Fairbairn in his book "Shooting to Live," he stated that the more he learned about the issue, the less certain he was about anything.

But being knocked down doesn't mean that you're down and out; only that you've been knocked down. You can easily (or with some difficulty) get back up and either run or continue the fight. So, in a sense, it's like "stopping power." It exists but it's not something you can count on to the exclusion of everything else. You can call it something else but if they go down when shot, that's either stopping power or knockdown power. Talking about physiological details is just so much hair-splitting.

If these things didn't exist, all boxing matches would be decided on technicalities. But unlike in boxing, fights with guns are not evenly matched or fair. You can argue all you want (just like I'm doing) about why someone was "knocked down" when they got shot, although the obvious reason is, they got shot. However, I can only think of one (usually) reliable hit that will knock a person down, even though it probably won't be fatal or even a fatal wound: a hit to the top of the head. The problem is, what kind of a target is that? Not much when only hits count.
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Old August 27, 2015, 03:38 PM   #30
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too often, there is an assumption that the good guy will have significant time to prepare for the encounter. I submit that most interpersonal violence comes very quickly and often with little or no warning.
Look at those folks on the train in Europe the other day. Sitting there minding their business, and suddenly it's "Let's roll" time.
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Old August 27, 2015, 05:09 PM   #31
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Knockdown power is certainly a myth.

It's unclear what caliber was used, but the violent video yesterday of a thin defenseless woman being shot repeatedly point blank - she was able to turn and run a short distance having presumably been shot multiple times. She was not a drugged up 250 pound violent man. She was standing 3 feet from her assailant and appears to have been shot repeatedly as she turned and ran...

Whatever caliber, handgun bullets don't tend to knock people down as we saw here.

If you spend any time watching shooting videos, rarely do shot people go straight down.
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Old August 27, 2015, 05:40 PM   #32
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Knowing about something does not make one able to perform the something, especially in a high stress situation.
And, neither does training.

Training increases the odds you will do what you trained for. It does not guarantee competency in a high stress situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against training. I just don't see it as the proof that people take it as.

Trained people screw up all the time. And not always in high stress situations. And untrained people sometimes do exactly the right thing in those situations, as well.

Trained people have a piece of paper that says they are trained. People assume this means they know what they are doing.

Only what they actually do shows me if they know it, or not.


Good training hurts nothing. Bad training is worse than no training.
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Old August 27, 2015, 10:29 PM   #33
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44Amp - that was the point of the following statement about timer brain scramble even though I've shot IDPA for several years.
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Old August 28, 2015, 05:58 AM   #34
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There's nothing wrong with training unless the training is wrong. Training is, or should be, based on a set of assumptions. Different people are going to make different assumptions, partly because they expect the trainees are going to be in different situations. The assumptions for a soldier would not necessarily be the assumptions for a policeman. But the assumptions also take into account the expected reactions of the trainees when they are involved in a fight and the assumption may be wrong. Or the training may be attempting to overcome those expectations, too.

I suppose all one could say with certainty is that, for an inexperienced beginner, nothing is a given. The basic training is familiarity with the weapons. Then you do enough shooting to learn what happens when you pull the trigger and find out where the bullet goes. I imagine many do not progress beyond that point. People went off to war in WWII with little more training in using a handgun than that. The assumption there was there wasn't enough time for anyone to master a handgun.

I've seen enough wartime films, which were confirmed by my father, that sometimes people drop like rocks when shot. But to repeat what I said earlier, you can't count on it.

It is equally false to believe that some calibers, like 9mm hardball, are so ineffective that the victim won't even know they're shot. Some people even believe that a .22 hollowpoint is more effective. And an automatic pistol without a chambered round is not an unloaded gun. How difficult is it to rack the slide. You even practice it a lot without realizing it. True, some are difficult but some are easy and the easiest one I've used was a Glock. Anyone should be able to draw from a thumbsnap holster from concealment and run five feet or more in less than three seconds. Three seconds is the newly established time limit because that's how long it takes to kick in a door. I know that's true because I read it here.
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Old August 28, 2015, 06:47 AM   #35
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I think I really want it to be a Colt. A real Colt.
Whaddya think?
Well, I think the clock is ticking for all of us all the time.

Good luck.
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Old August 28, 2015, 07:35 AM   #36
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Luck is an essential factor in all human endeavors. Good luck, though, is what you want.
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Old August 28, 2015, 08:59 AM   #37
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Maybe not defense related but my wife glanced at the topic and added one

This is the last gun I'm going to buy
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Old August 28, 2015, 09:39 AM   #38
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I often tell them at the range/gun shop that I'm always trying to decide whether to sell them all or buy one more. But I have fewer now than I have had since I was in the army, when I only had one. Even then I was trading a lot. But there's no question that someday I will have bought my last gun. The question is, which one will it be?

I don't think I'll ever sell them all. I might trade them all for something but probably not. So it's back to square one: what should I get next? Money is always an issue, even though we seem to be spending money left and right and taking long trips overseas. Even today we're buying land in the heart of the city--Ivy Hill Cemetery in Alexandria, Virginia.
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Last edited by BlueTrain; August 28, 2015 at 10:07 AM.
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Old August 28, 2015, 10:51 AM   #39
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Anyone should be able to draw from a thumbsnap holster from concealment and run five feet or more in less than three seconds.
.

That is an inaccuracy right there. First i dont see the connection in your statements. "Draw from a snapped holster" "Run 5feet in 3 seconds " "Thats how long to kick in a door" Im not understanding the connection of those events.

Second, not everyone has the mobility to move as you describe. Wheelchair bound or even recovering from a Ski accident and in a cast, can reduce movement to almost zero
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Old August 28, 2015, 11:07 AM   #40
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There's nothing inaccurate there. But that isn't to suggest it's easy. Some believe you need to be able to draw in less than a second. I'm not that fast but I guess everyone else is.

Someone in another thread mentioned that it takes three seconds to kick in your front door. You have to read the whole forum. Everything's connected, if only loosely. I've don't know of anyone whose front door was kicked in, even loosely.

However, if we leave out the running part, I don't see why everything else doesn't remains valid. Drawing the gun in under three seconds is directly related to someone kicking in your front door or even your rear door. What is your standard for an adequate reaction time?
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Old August 28, 2015, 11:15 AM   #41
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hmmm

Be alert to your surroundings.

Perhaps because I was brought up in Brooklyn NY It is a natural thing for me to notice particular people and their actions.

Those extra few seconds will make a difference.
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Old August 28, 2015, 11:29 AM   #42
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Posted by BlueTrain:
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There's nothing inaccurate there. But that isn't to suggest it's easy. Some believe you need to be able to draw in less than a second. I'm not that fast but I guess everyone else is.

Someone in another thread mentioned that it takes three seconds to kick in your front door. You have to read the whole forum. Everything's connected, if only loosely. I've don't know of anyone whose front door was kicked in, even loosely.

However, if we leave out the running part, I don't see why everything else doesn't remains valid. Drawing the gun in under three seconds is directly related to someone kicking in your front door or even your rear door.
What is it that you are trying to say?

Quote:
What is your standard for an adequate reaction time?
Quick enough avoid running over someone, getting run over, getting mugged, getting shot, getting hit by a falling branch, getting burned--whatever.
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Old August 28, 2015, 11:41 AM   #43
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This is going to be a fun thread I can tell. It's like being in a helicopter watching a car parked on the train tracks below.

One man's inaccuracies ultimately turn out to be another man's religion or policy. And you know how folks love to calmly discuss religion and politics! Yay!
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Old August 28, 2015, 12:19 PM   #44
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If I were really religious, I wouldn't own a gun.

I'm pretty sure I can draw from concealment (assumed requirement) in three seconds or less but not absolutely, positively sure. And anyway, that's only starting from when I decide to draw. That can be a sticking point.

I've been to Brooklyn, even to the Bronx. I've even stood on Flatbush Avenue completely unarmed and lived to tell about it. Of course, there was no one else in sight at the time and the getaway car with my driver was right there.

This has been about speed. I think we're discussing accuracy somewhere else.
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Old August 28, 2015, 01:09 PM   #45
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Posted by BlueTrain:
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I'm pretty sure I can draw from concealment (assumed requirement) in three seconds or less but not absolutely, positively sure.
That would give a violent attacker running at an average speed time to cover about fifteen meters.

It is widely held that a trained and practice person carrying openly can draw in half that time. My draw from concealment is not very much slower than second and a half plus decision time, but if there is an inaccuracy to dispel here, it is that drawing in a second in the half would likely be sufficient to stop someone charging from 21 feet.

Two reasons: shooting will not effect an immediate stop, and if he closes all the distance, you are in a lot of trouble.
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Old August 28, 2015, 01:48 PM   #46
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Does that mean I need to put the five feet back in? And are you assuming that I or anyone else is just going to stand there? Is that fifteen meters from a standing start? If he is only, say, six meters away, does that mean you're a gonner?

The time I mentioned is not timed by anyone else with a stopwatch. Just me looking at a clock and being conservative. It's also with chamber empty for practice purposes. And I don't know how to figure in reaction time, which is critical. If someone is timing you, or if you're actually expecting something imminent, it's one thing. It something happens totally unexpectedly, that's another. I suppose that's where experience comes in but most of lead pretty peaceful lives around here.

In my practicing over the years, however, drawing from concealment creates the most problems. From an exposed Jordan-style holster with a heavy-barrel K-frame revolver, the times are much faster. You may remember that in the 1950s, all of this was being done with single-action revolvers, though rarely with live ammunition. I should think that a trained person "in good training" should be able to draw--and make a hit--in less than a second, on a good day. We all have our bad days.

The last thing you mention makes me think that shooting is a poor second choice to running. Perhaps I should practice running more than drawing.
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Old August 28, 2015, 03:28 PM   #47
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If he is only, say, six meters away, does that mean you're a gonner?
If you rely solely on drawing and firing, it means you are in a heap o' trouble.

Quote:
The last thing you mention makes me think that shooting is a poor second choice to running. Perhaps I should practice running more than drawing
If you can safely retreat without abandoning loved ones, you probably should.

In any event, movement could sure help.
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Old August 28, 2015, 04:02 PM   #48
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I'm old, and lazy, mostly lazy. It will probably take me three seconds to get off the couch.

But I always stand around, or set with my hands in my pocket. A habit I developed a long time ago. My wife even laughs saying she cant find a picture of me where my hand isn't in my pocket.

Having said that, there is also a revolver in that pocket. It takes me less then 0.5 seconds to draw and fire it.

Last tested yesterday in a demonstration of the necessity of speed in SD. One of my students used the shot time and it took .46 seconds.
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Old August 28, 2015, 04:14 PM   #49
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If I were really religious, I wouldn't own a gun.
That's an easily dispeled inaccuracy, unless the post was literal about "a" as opposed to "many" guns.

One would not need to be a history scholar to know that many "really religious" folks arm themselves.
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Old August 28, 2015, 04:16 PM   #50
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kraigwy - I take it the 0.46 seconds was NOT while seated on the couch

I can't even come close to that time drawing potato chips out of the bag!
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