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Old July 15, 2011, 03:21 PM   #1
DG45
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Dug relic loose cylinders

It's been stated as fact on at least two threads on this forum that no loose revolver cylinders have ever been found in civil war relic digs - or words to that effect.

I took it as gospel. They said it, so it must be true, right?

Today I started looking to see if I could find any evidence of any.

Would you believe that inside an hour I'd already found two?

1. a dug relic loose Remington cylinder was auctioned off on ebay on May 31, 2011 by a seller identified on the ebay site as "onenessapolistic". You can see a picture of it still on the ebay site. You should be able to pull it up at the ebay site or you can get to it via Yahoo or Google search engines by typing in REMINGTON ARMY REVOLVER CYLINDER VERY NICE DUG RELIC.

2. a dug relic revolver cylinder that's in such deteriorated shape that I can't make out what brand it is, it's cylinder pin hole looks too small to be a Colt, but it may be a Remington because the cylinder pin hole is smaller in diameter than its 44 cal. cylinder chambers and that's like my Pietta Remington 1858 New Model Army replica, but the relic cylinder doesn't seem to have the safety slots between the nipples like my gun's cylinder does, but maybe theyve just been obliterated from years in the ground or in water, I don't know.

Anyway, this cylinder was found and discussed online in a website called "Friendly Metal Detecting Forums". The thread name is "Discrimmination for Civil War Relics?" and two photos of this cylinder are shown on post #5 on that thread dated 03-03-2011 at 3:53 pm. The finder (and posters )screen name on that site was tabdog. He was said to be an elite member. At the bottom of the screen he had a further id as "Tabdog the Arkie".

Just Sayin.
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Old July 15, 2011, 08:54 PM   #2
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cylinders have been found but they are not common,

when remington or colt made a revolver they would assemble it. it was to have one cylinder for it. they had no reason to send an extra cylinder with a gun, an extra cylinder would have meant more time and cost to the company becuase it would have had to function correctly with the revolver.

now you can easily find original revovlers lacking cylinders and if its a colt, the whole barrel assembly.
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Old July 16, 2011, 01:04 AM   #3
DG45
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"Uncommon" is one thing. "Never been found is another".

In this case, I would agree with you that finding loose revolver cylinders in a dig is uncommon, but I don't think the word "uncommon" should be interpreted to mean rare. The two I located online today both came to light in separate digs made this year. Using that as a rough guideline, I wouldn't be surprised if two or three loose cylinders a year aren't found on average.

Ther is no way to know how many more are already in private collections that is outside of the internets search capability, or how many are still hidden beneath 6 inches of dirt on real battlefields where they will never be found because people aren't allowed to dig there anymore.

But at least no one can say anymore that no loose revolver cylinders have ever been found in digs.
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Old July 16, 2011, 08:31 AM   #4
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Two cylinders does not your case make. As far as "real" battlefields go 99% or more of them are private property. Only a small portion of them are military parks.' You're still ignoring the fact that there's no written documentation, no cylinder pouches to be seen anywhere, no sales records, no pictures, no nothing. You're like a drowning man grasping at straw.
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Old July 16, 2011, 08:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Haggen fellow
You're still ignoring the fact that there's no written documentation, no cylinder pouches to be seen anywhere, no sales records, no pictures, no nothing. You're like a drowning man grasping at straw.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS!

Finding a cylinder in a dig does not prove anything. It could have just as easily been a single cylinder from a revolver that was disassembled.
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Old July 16, 2011, 08:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Finding a cylinder in a dig does not prove anything. It could have just as easily been a single cylinder from a revolver that was disassembled.
Or the cylinder pin could have rusted through.
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Old July 16, 2011, 09:08 AM   #7
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A irrelevent correction:

As I read before the former fight thread was closed,
The movie Outlaw Josey Wales didn't have a cylinder swap, it was the movie "Pale Rider" that did that wonderful cylinder swap multiple times.
Same actor different movie. OJW had a whole lot of out of time revolvers, but it still is the greatest movie in history. (that's probably just my opinion)

It might be easier to find out why a movie writer came up with the idea of the cylinder exchange, than it is to comb through historical documents.

It might or might not have happened in real life, however, it certainly is one of the coolest things done in a western. Now, we all practice it.

OJW
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Old July 16, 2011, 09:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
The movie Outlaw Josey Wales didn't have a cylinder swap, it was the movie "Pale Rider" that did that wonderful cylinder swap multiple times.

Yep, my bad. I tend to get his movies mixed up from time to time.
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Old July 16, 2011, 10:14 AM   #9
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One thought is the army did request that Remington modify their guns so that it was harder to remove the cylinder fairly early in production. That makes me think that there was a mind set that the cylinders where too easy to remove.
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Old July 16, 2011, 10:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
One thought is the army did request that Remington modify their guns so that it was harder to remove the cylinder fairly early in production. That makes me think that there was a mind set that the cylinders where too easy to remove.
The second model had the top of the loading lever milled down so you could pull the pin without lowering the lever to facilitate cleaning but when holstered or during firing it tended to walk out on it's own.
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Old July 16, 2011, 10:38 AM   #11
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cylinders

I have seen dug 58 Remmies with out cylinders.
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Old July 16, 2011, 11:40 AM   #12
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Hawg and Madcratebuilder, we're never going to agree on this. I think you're just wrong, and I will point out again that outside of the clique on this forum, I appear to hold the majority view on this issue, not the minority view, and that Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia agrees with my take on this issue, not yours - or rather, I agree with their take, and you don't. Anyway, in this argument, I don't have to prove my case. (although I think I have, anyway). You have to disprove it.

If you think you can disprove it, why don't you get Wikipedia to revise its Remington 1858 entry to reflect your viewpoint?

If you can sell them, maybe I'll buy too. But I don't think you can, and I think you know it.
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Old July 16, 2011, 12:08 PM   #13
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Anybody can post whatever they want on Wikipedia. It doesn't make it a fact.
How can you be so blind to the facts? The fact that it's a majority opinion is due to Hollywood. I've said it before I'll say it again.



Think what you want. One day you'll figure out grandpa wasn't always right.
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Old July 16, 2011, 01:51 PM   #14
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Hawg, I can tell you've looked on the scoreboard and seen who 's behind, and in the absense of the facts and the law, have resorted to pounding on your desk again.

If you and your cohorts argument on this issue was sound and supported by the facts, you and I both know that Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia, would have adopted that position. They have not. Quite the contrary. Their article supports my position and we both know it.

If Wikipedia supported your argument you wouldn't have to roll eyes, you could just direct my attention to their article on the 1858 Remington, the same way that I'm directing your attention to it right now.

If fact, I invite anyone reading this thread to simply use Yahoo or Google or whaever search engine you have to pull up Wikipedia's article on the 1858 Remington revolver, and see what it says about it's advantages. I believe you'll find listed high among them, the ease with which a soldier could change cylinders in them.

At this point I rest my case.

PS. Hawg, I expect there'll be a lot of caterwauling now about the falsehoods that are perpetuated by Wikipedia and the internet. I hope you won't join in that because despite our disagreements, I like you or think I would anyway, and although I don't agree with you, I respect the fact that you actually seem to believe what you're saying. I think everybody else doesn't have a clue, they're either just supporting their old buddy Hawg (I kind of admire that), while others seem to be suckups (I don't admire that) to the Alpa Hawg. But digging in on the wrong side of the internet is an unsound infantry tactic in this battle and in most future battles of this type, I'd say.
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Old July 16, 2011, 02:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
The second model had the top of the loading lever milled down so you could pull the pin without lowering the lever to facilitate cleaning but when holstered or during firing it tended to walk out on it's own.
I wasn't even aware there were different models of 1858 Remingtons. My cylinder pin will just fall out if tipped down at half cock with the lever down. What did they expect would retain the pin? Were any alterations made to retain the pin in the 2nd model?
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Old July 16, 2011, 02:43 PM   #16
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IT"S ON WIKIPEDIA?!?!?!?!?! THEN IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!!!!!

Last edited by MJN77; July 16, 2011 at 02:51 PM.
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Old July 16, 2011, 02:51 PM   #17
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Could be many many reasons for a cylinder or a frame to be found on their own. Doesn't mean someone kept extra frames for their cylinder, or cylinders for their frames. I'm sure some folks did but that would be the rarest of occasions. Really no need to. If spare cylinders were popular in the day, there would be record of Remington making way more cylinders than frames. Have to agree with Hawg on that. We'd see old advertisements from resellers, or Remington, showing spare cylinders and their cost. Just isn't any record of it.
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Old July 16, 2011, 03:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Hawg, I can tell you've looked on the scoreboard and seen who 's behind, and in the absense of the facts and the law, have resorted to pounding on your desk again.
Nah, no desk pounding here. No need to, the facts are behind me not you. It's futile to keep this up. Lets move on.


Quote:
My cylinder pin will just fall out if tipped down at half cock with the lever down. What did they expect would retain the pin? Were any alterations made to retain the pin in the 2nd model?
There were some attempts to thread a set screw into the pin itself and have it seat against the barrel but that just made it harder to disassemble



The second model or model 1861 was a transitional model that underwent several changes during its production run. The safety notches were added and the milled lever was added and removed, the frame was cut back so barrel threads were exposed to lessen fouling which the Beals was infamous for. All these changes evolved into the 1863 model we know today as the 1858 Remington.

Last edited by Hawg; July 16, 2011 at 03:10 PM.
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Old July 16, 2011, 03:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelf2
Could be many many reasons for a cylinder or a frame to be found on their own. Doesn't mean someone kept extra frames for their cylinder, or cylinders for their frames. I'm sure some folks did but that would be the rarest of occasions. Really no need to. If spare cylinders were popular in the day, there would be record of Remington making way more cylinders than frames. Have to agree with Hawg on that. We'd see old advertisements from resellers, or Remington, showing spare cylinders and their cost. Just isn't any record of it.
You may be right but what records?
According to the Remington Society research team those records were always closed and kept secret.
So where do those with questions have access to the Remington records about 1858 cylinder production?
Where has anyone read about these cylinder production figures to see what the records actually indicate?

http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/research/

http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/...h/archivesroom


Another question that I have is what are the chances that a cylinder from one 1858 could have fit on another 1858 well enough to function?
Maybe there was the random possibility that random cylinders from broken guns could be used for swapping out with if parts weren't available in the field to fix those broken guns.
It only takes a few soldiers to think about the possibility enough to come up with the idea to test available cylinders until they found one that would fit their gun.
The same might even apply to Colt guns which weren't impossible to swap cylinders with if doing that was faster than other reloading options and the situation warranted.

Last edited by arcticap; July 16, 2011 at 03:40 PM.
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Old July 16, 2011, 03:35 PM   #20
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static

Last edited by 4V50 Gary; July 17, 2011 at 04:55 PM. Reason: noise deleted
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Old July 16, 2011, 03:37 PM   #21
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I agree Hawg. let's move on. We're never going to agree on it.

Actually, I would like to know if you saw the picture of that badly corroded cylinder that was on that Friendly Metal Detecting Forum and if you can identify what kind of gun it came from. The cylinder pin hole doesn't look big enough for a Colt, but it doesn't have safety notches between the cylinders like my Remington 1858 does.

Last edited by DG45; July 16, 2011 at 03:48 PM.
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Old July 16, 2011, 03:50 PM   #22
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DG45,
***noise***
You or I can go to Wikipedia, and edit the pages. Real reliable, buddy. You take the word of one old man, and the fact that you cannot find one historical account of what you claim as fact, but you think I'm the idiot. Funny. I'll go away when you stop beating this, same dead horse.

Last edited by 4V50 Gary; July 17, 2011 at 01:36 PM. Reason: static deleted
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Old July 16, 2011, 04:14 PM   #23
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No DG, I didn't see it but from what you say it's a Beals or early 61 Cylinder. The safety notches appeared on the 61 model. If you look at the pic I posted earlier on this thread that's a 61 and it doesn't have safety notches.
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Old July 16, 2011, 08:25 PM   #24
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the US army was the main purchaser of percussion revolvers for the entire century. yes small firms made them, but those firms had microscopic outputs that makes those revolvers 50,000 antiques.

a lot of people have the idea that revolvers came with multiple cylinders for speed reloading in the field. the problem is..

1. the us government issued the revolver exactly as it left the factory, assembled in a plastic baggie like pietta or uberti sends it to cabelas who then sends it to you.

2. the us government was ANAL about ammunition usage, they only issued sharps,henry's, and spencers once the BIG BOY in government vetoed the armys procurement department.
the only reason they gave colt the big contract for the SAA was that it was the slowest to empty and reload of all revolvers in the design competition that year.

3. all company and government manuals and broad sheets of the day do not mention a seperate cylinder for any revolver used by the us military.
the us field manuals dictate everything down step by step, second by second, and were the only acceptable way to do things.

4. good record keeping was kept, no mention of a dead mans possessions being sent back home ever mentioned a spare cylinder.

5. photographs NEVER show a spare cylinder, or spare cylinder pouch

6. Elmer Kieth and many of the early gunwriters of the 1900s grew up with and learned to shoot percussion guns from the men who LEARNED either by being in the civil war and having the government give them the pistol, or they learned in the years following the war.
These writers, considered true prophets of steel, NEVER mention not one time a spare cylinder.

7. the only written report of cylinder swapping comes from the texas rangers with the original walkers. According to historians/collectors the fact so many walkers have msimatched numbers for cylinder and barrel and frame is that out in the field the rangers would swap those parts with eachother to get parts that worked better with their internals.
"hey frank, can i have your barrel assembly cuz mine just wont fit my arbor" and so on.

it took over a 1000 years for the catholic church to officially drop the policy of executing people who said the world was round once it was proven to be round.
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Old July 16, 2011, 08:49 PM   #25
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Thanks, Hawg.
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