The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 23, 2015, 05:02 PM   #26
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,996
Quote:
Job or no job, I have never been one to back down from
being physically threatened.
Then you really shouldn't be carrying a gun in my opinion.
You mentioned an argument in a library between a drunk and a Librarian, and from your description it seems to me you were tempted to draw/flash your firearm in order to gain control of the situation and are proud of yourself for not doing so. I hope I misinterpreted your post. Brandishing a firearm because a drunk person is arguing would be incredibly irresponsible, unwarranted, childish, and in most locals illegal.
Quote:
never beeen good at confrontations. I freeze up and get angry. Adrenaline starts pumping. Can't talk to them to work out problems.
How would I respond? When I realized he had been drinking on the first day I would have asked him if he had been drinking. If he said yes I would have insisted I drive. If he refused I would have exited.
If he said no, he just swished some mouth wash or something, I would have made a decision as to whether he was intoxicated or not. There are reasons to have alcohol on your breath that don't require drinking even an entire serving of alcohol. Bourbon balls and rum cake being two of my favorite. If he was intoxicated I would have exited. If I decided he was not intoxicated, I would have let it go until there was an issue or I observed him drinking later as you did. I then would have insisted I drive from then on. If he refused I exit.
If at any point I decided to leave I would have followed minorcans advice as closely as possible.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old October 16, 2015, 09:27 PM   #27
Mokumbear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Posts: 696
John,

My State has both a Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine.
Do you realistically expect me to allow my butt to be kicked without taking action?

Since you don't know me, please don't be in a rush to judgment.
I have been shooting for 30 years and have never had a confrontation with anyone for any reason.

As far as my observations at my local library...

I think you got me wrong.
I specifically did NOT get involved in the situation because I was legally carrying.
I listened to what was occurring but did not involve myself at all in what was occurring.

I'm not religious but the Bible cautions about getting involved in strife that is now your own.

Once again, after the first clues that this guy was driving drunk, I should have
detached myself from any after hours activities with him.
I was in an awkward position where I wanted to get along and not rock the boat as a new hire.

Bottom line, I still have a job,
I will most likely never see this guy again.
Mokumbear is offline  
Old October 18, 2015, 12:27 AM   #28
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,996
Quote:
I have never been one to back down...
Quote:
Do you realistically expect me to allow my butt to be kicked without taking action?
No, I, as a "reasonable person," expect you to back down, something you say you will never do.

"Stand Your Ground" and "Castle Doctrine" are defined differently in almost every state that has such laws. Almost all of them still require retreat in many situations, including actual or the threat of physical contact not resulting in serious harm. How much of a beating constitutes serious/great bodily harm has been discussed in other threads and is pretty vague. A black eye is generally considered to fall short.
Age, size, number of assailants, and many other variables come into the equation.

I hear a lot of Huffing and puffing about what people think they can do because of "Castle Doctrine," "Stand your Ground," "I have a CCW," "I'm an NRA Certified instructor." When the NRA opens an accredited law school or states recognize CCWs on BAR exam candidates applications I'll start listening.

If you end up in court and a DA or plaintiff's attorney dig up your statement here concerning never backing down in relation to physical confrontation on a firearms forum in the context of CCW responsibilities, best of luck.

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; October 19, 2015 at 12:26 PM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old October 18, 2015, 03:42 AM   #29
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
I'm inclined to agree with John on this point.

Never backing down implies that confrontation is all but guaranteed unless the other backs down first. And if they don't?

Similarly Castle Doctrine and Stand your ground, give you certain additional legal rights in a confrontation situation, but nor is that a carte blanche to charge head-long into an altercation.

One thing I've learnt is when carrying a firearm is that it is in fact most wise to back down whenever the opportunity arises.
That can mean walking away, placating someone, anything to avoid it progressing to a physical confrontation at which point all bets are off.

Not doing so sounds more like pride over-ruling common sense.

Pride, firearms and subsequent court cases don't play well together.

Now if that is not what you meant, that is a different story, but your statement said "never" and, at face value, that is pretty unambiguous...
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old October 23, 2015, 04:43 PM   #30
Mokumbear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Posts: 696
Actions speak louder than words.

Thirty years of gun ownership and I've never drawn a gun on anyone.

Perhaps I was just a little wound up by the way I was treated by
my trainer. This guy was a train wreck.
He put my safety in jeopardy several times because of his alcoholic behavior.
If not for my strong documentation, he could have cost me my new job that I really enjoy.

Please note that despite his awful behavior, I didn't even come close to a physical confrontation with him.
I did finally let him know VERBALLY exactly what I thought of his disrespectful behavior.

I had been nothing but polite, respectful and kind to him.
I even offered to cook a steak dinner for us one night since the hotel had a full kitchen in each unit. He was used to going out every night for dinner
and I thought he would enjoy it.
All of that steak wound up in the trash when I had to flee the hotel at
3am in the morning to get away from this angry and irrational guy.

BTW, I never got an apology from this creep.
Hopefully my company took some action with him after this.
He had gotten away with his alcoholic behavior because he usually traveled to people's towns. The new hires never had to stay in the same hotel with him at the end of the day when he immediately began drinking at the end of the work day.

He needs a stay in rehab, without a doubt.
He has had difficult life circumstances and was using alcohol to self medicate.

If I can live my life out without ever drawing a gun, I will be a happy man.
Then again, I will not be a victim if I am ever confronted with the threat
of seriously bodily harm. Doesn't that seem reasonable to you?

I think this is perfectly consistent with the laws in my state.
Mokumbear is offline  
Old October 23, 2015, 11:09 PM   #31
sandmansans
Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2015
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokumbear View Post
Actions speak louder than words.

Thirty years of gun ownership and I've never drawn a gun on anyone.

Perhaps I was just a little wound up by the way I was treated by
my trainer. This guy was a train wreck.
He put my safety in jeopardy several times because of his alcoholic behavior.
If not for my strong documentation, he could have cost me my new job that I really enjoy.

Please note that despite his awful behavior, I didn't even come close to a physical confrontation with him.
I did finally let him know VERBALLY exactly what I thought of his disrespectful behavior.

I had been nothing but polite, respectful and kind to him.
I even offered to cook a steak dinner for us one night since the hotel had a full kitchen in each unit. He was used to going out every night for dinner
and I thought he would enjoy it.
All of that steak wound up in the trash when I had to flee the hotel at
3am in the morning to get away from this angry and irrational guy.

BTW, I never got an apology from this creep.
Hopefully my company took some action with him after this.
He had gotten away with his alcoholic behavior because he usually traveled to people's towns. The new hires never had to stay in the same hotel with him at the end of the day when he immediately began drinking at the end of the work day.

He needs a stay in rehab, without a doubt.
He has had difficult life circumstances and was using alcohol to self medicate.

If I can live my life out without ever drawing a gun, I will be a happy man.
Then again, I will not be a victim if I am ever confronted with the threat
of seriously bodily harm. Doesn't that seem reasonable to you?

I think this is perfectly consistent with the laws in my state.
Frankly you put yourself in a dangerous situation. You said you smelled alcohol on his breath and didn't do/say anything:responsibility falls on you regarding your life being in danger. Don't pass that burden onto some idiot drunkard, take ownership its yours.


I agree with John in regards to your statement about never backing down...that's a bad mentality in life, there's always someone tougher and with less to lose than you. Its not about being a punk or coward, its knowing when the risks far outweigh the benefits. I.e. lose the small battle, but win the war..


It's not my position to dictate who can and can't own/carry a firearm and I don't know who you are, but based on what you have posted perhaps considering not carrying might be a viable option. From what I read you are easily rattled during confrontations, not a good quality to have while in posession of any lethal weapon. At least maybe just for a while, maybe seek professional therapy such as anger management. It sounds corny, but it does work.
I know I will get flamed for this next sentence, but I personally view concealed carry as a privilege not a right. That's just my personal belief, not one that I feel anyone else needs to be confined to, but it's that belief that keeps me honest and responsible regarding my actions; both when carrying and not.

I used to be like that when I was younger and I realised that, so I never applied for my LCTF as I knew it could put me in a bad situation. Once I matured and learned civilised methods of coping with angry outbursts, in other words when I emotionally evolved, I then decided that I was "fit" to carry.

I hope you don't read my message as that of condescension, as its not, but instead see it for what it is:honest feedback.
sandmansans is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 06:34 AM   #32
Mokumbear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Posts: 696
You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to disagree.

You are correct in that I should have not gotten into a car with him
once I learned he was drunk.
I will take ownership of that.

I beg to differ on your suggestion that I need an anger management course.
I hate to argue and strive to keep all of my interactions with others respectful and positive.

I will continue to exercise my right to legally carry.

I think the issue is, indeed, that you don't know me.
If you knew me, you would understand that I am calm, peaceful and friendly.
Mokumbear is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 08:52 AM   #33
sandmansans
Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2015
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokumbear View Post
You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to disagree.

You are correct in that I should have not gotten into a car with him
once I learned he was drunk.
I will take ownership of that.

I beg to differ on your suggestion that I need an anger management course.
I hate to argue and strive to keep all of my interactions with others respectful and positive.

I will continue to exercise my right to legally carry.

I think the issue is, indeed, that you don't know me.
If you knew me, you would understand that I am calm, peaceful and friendly.
If I'm not mistaken the overall purpose of your thread was to learn de-escalation trchniques, right?

Well a big part of that is control of one's emotions especially anger. Anger has different effects on everyone. Some people see red and EXPLODE in every instance, others freeze and bottle it up.

Either way, it's the lack of control of emotions. With control of emotions and specifically control of anger in a situation needing de-escalation, you are able to put aside primitive thoughts/reactions and instead think logically, thus regaining the upper hand.
sandmansans is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 09:16 AM   #34
Moonglum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2015
Posts: 179
This (IMO) is where it gets firearms related

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokumbear
Job or no job, I have never been one to back down from
being physically threatened.
If you are going to carry a gun you are going to have to become the one to back down.

Whether you're (not you specifically) carrying a gun or not you can't afford to escalate the situation because you don't want a history of police calls of any kind if you're ever involved in a shooting.

You also don't want a list of posts on gun forums documenting that you aren't going to back down.

If you're ever in a shooting you want every witness there to say that you did every thing you could to get away from the other person without resorting to violence and that the other guy was 100% the aggressor.


P.S. I don't think the OP needs anger management I think he needs stress inoculation. Try some FoF training

Last edited by Moonglum; October 24, 2015 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Spelling
Moonglum is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 12:06 PM   #35
Mokumbear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Posts: 696
I would like to see a more senior member weigh in on this.

I think I might be misunderstood.
With 30 years of gun ownership and ZERO incidents, I am at a loss why these junior members think "I need help". Frankly, I call BS.
My track record proves otherwise.
I have NEVER had any police contact regarding a confrontation with another person.

When I say "I won't back down", I meant that if faced with a life threatening
situation and no amount of de-escalation works, I will not allow myself to be a victim. How can you fault that?

A number of people in my County have been able to save their lives
from attacking criminals with the use of a gun.
Sometimes merely drawing stopped the situation.
In other cases, they were forced to shoot an armed, even masked, attacker.
Mokumbear is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 12:41 PM   #36
sandmansans
Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2015
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokumbear View Post
I would like to see a more senior member weigh in on this.

I think I might be misunderstood.
With 30 years of gun ownership and ZERO incidents, I am at a loss why these junior members think "I need help". Frankly, I call BS.
My track record proves otherwise.
I have NEVER had any police contact regarding a confrontation with another person.

When I say "I won't back down", I meant that if faced with a life threatening
situation and no amount of de-escalation works, I will not allow myself to be a victim. How can you fault that?

A number of people in my County have been able to save their lives
from attacking criminals with the use of a gun.
Sometimes merely drawing stopped the situation.
In other cases, they were forced to shoot an armed, even masked, attacker.

So you ask for advice, get it and are now upset because it's not the advice you wanted to receive?

Am I missing something?

Remember you came into a public forum and asked for advice/feedback, none of this was unsolicited. If anything I think your replies have only validated my points and others about better emotional control. From a "junior" member (me), to a "senior" (you) : Buck up chap, it's the internet!

For the sake of not further incensing you, which by the way as I clearly stated was not my intention, I will refrain from further comment.

I sincerely wish you the best.
sandmansans is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 12:56 PM   #37
Moonglum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2015
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokumbear
I would like to see a more senior member weigh in on this

Just because I'm a junior member on this forum doesn't mean I don't have anything to add to the discussion. I've been carrying a gun for almost as long as you have as well as working in a field that requires conflict resolution and deescalation on a regular basis.

You asked for advice and have been rebutting every person who has given it to you since the OP.

If you don't learn a task under stress you can't replicate it under stress. You need to learn how not to get mad and freeze. It is what it is and my post count doesn't change the truth of my statement.


P.S. There's no point in what ifing this situation because this situation is highly unlikely to ever happen again.

Be that as it may I have to agree with sans on one thing, the second time you got in a car with someone you knew was drunk was 100% on you.

Out of curiosity, why didn't you contact your supervisor immediately?

Last edited by Moonglum; October 24, 2015 at 01:14 PM.
Moonglum is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 04:49 PM   #38
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
Quote:
I would like to see a more senior member weigh in on this.
I'll refrain from commenting on the other points as I've expressed my view already but I will say this:
I have (at the time of this post) 4,438 posts, to your 687, Sandmansans' 15 and Moonglum's 13. That makes me the senior poster by a heck of a margin. So....my knowledge trumps all, right?

Doubtful.
I've been shooting for 4 years and carrying for 3. I'm the least qualified to post of all, when it comes to experience in carrying guns.

The only thing my post count really tells you is I may have no social life and thus spend my time on the internet!!
Let's not discount folk on the grounds that they only signed up recently. There is a lot of untapped knowledge out there.
If you ultimately reject it, at least consider it beforehand.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 05:28 PM   #39
Kosh75287
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2007
Posts: 822
As to the mechanics of de-escalation, they're very situationally dependent. I generally wait for the potential adversary to talk himself out of breath and while he's inhaling, try to explain that there's probably nothing in the prevailing difference of opinions (or whatever) that's even remotely worth either (or all) of us getting hurt. I use the word "hurt" not "killed", not "head busted", nor any other term that denotes anything more than hitting my finger while driving a nail. It's too easily misconstrued by the rocket-scientist I'm dealing with (or his family's attorney, if the situation REALLY goes south) as an implied threat or escalation.

Then, I try to find out what they think will make the whole situation no longer worth pursuing. If it's not my wallet, my life, or my wife (or my dog), then something can probably be worked out. If it's one of the things I listed, then everyone's life will likely get much more difficult not long from then.

These are generalities, and the extent to which they pertain in any given circumstance is among the most variable things I know. There's very little about human interaction of any kind, particularly conflicts in which one may be required to kill in order or preserve one's life, that's at all as predictable as anyone might like.
__________________
GOD BLESS JEFF COOPER, whose instructions, consultations, and publications have probably saved more lives than can ever be reliably calculated. DVC, sir.

انجلو. المسلحة. جاهزة. Carpe SCOTCH!
Kosh75287 is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 06:19 PM   #40
STEINER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2008
Posts: 168
This tread is an important subject but, yes, it is not firearm related.

The solution to this thread has already been answered in some of the above
posts.

Now, my story.
Anyone of you that have been in the work force for a few years have been around men & women that have an issue with booze.

I worked for a company with 22,000 employees.
One of my peers who was a great employee and friend was drinking on the job.
A little gossip my way and I confronted him and the end of a work day in the
break room. Just us.
I said... "Bob, I consider you a friend and a really good employee."
"The word is going around that you smell like booze."

He looked me right in the eyes and thanked me.
The next time we talked, a few days later, he smelled like peppermint gum and
beer.

Anyway, the company has an internal investigation unit and they followed him out to one of the remote sites we worked alone at.

They watched him stop at 8:00 am and get a 12 pack.
Then they sat and waited a couple hours.
Went into the Substation and found him drinking.

He went to a 30 day rehab. Got sober, went back to work and retired 10 years later still sober.
So... it can work when you want to help someone that figures out they need
help also.
STEINER is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 07:22 PM   #41
Kosh75287
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2007
Posts: 822
I'm always amazed when I hear stories like that one concerning your friend. I'm glad for him, and I wish him every continued success. For the other 49 out of 50, who don't do as well, I've gotten to where I shrug, shake my head and wonder at the taunting, miserable, impervious, unfathomable nature of addiction in all its forms, and why we haven't done better at finding a kink in its armour.

I know a lot of biochemistry, but I haven't a clue about addiction. It's one of those metaphysical paradoxes in which the more we learn, the more we discover we don't know. Bigger better brains than mine have devoted lifetimes to unraveling this "gordian knot" that besets man. And for all I've learned about it, one of the few things I'm truly sure of is that people who beat that demon for any length of time are due my undiluted respect.
__________________
GOD BLESS JEFF COOPER, whose instructions, consultations, and publications have probably saved more lives than can ever be reliably calculated. DVC, sir.

انجلو. المسلحة. جاهزة. Carpe SCOTCH!
Kosh75287 is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 08:47 PM   #42
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,996
Mokumbear,
let me clearly make a point some others have hinted at. You aren't backing down from an unknown person with no clear authority on a web forum. You are sticking to your guns and not backing down on something most of us would consider extremely trivial or take as needed criticism.
You relate stories, that are not at all life threatening IMO based on your description, to CCW. WHy are these situations related to CCW? I can see the connection unless you think they are situations where you were close to pulling. I can't see how a rational person in control of their emotions could draw that conclusion from the events you describe.

I have a ton of posts here. More than anyone actively participating in this thread at this point and more than some of the admins I believe. Many of them are questions because I often think of customization ideas, and I have found it is much much cheaper to run them by people here than to start in with the dremel. I get some great information from some of the dumbest questions imaginable. My other posts are mostly garbage. I've been around here a while and I admit IS a lot of garbage under my name. Post count means nothing and I don't know how else you are going to measure seniority.

Most of the people who have been around here a while see patterns from threads they have seen before, know where a thread is going, know everything relevant has already been said this time and the last, and stop posting or even reading. There are a lot of recurring themes I avoid now. They also don't want to post something that could come up in a court case later.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old October 24, 2015, 09:31 PM   #43
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
Excellent, important topic -- but it's headed a bit south. Closed pending review.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09103 seconds with 10 queries