The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 21, 2015, 11:46 AM   #76
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 5,128
Wrong quote cited

And that has nothing to do with imaginary "what if" scenarios regarding your bringing a gun to your job in violation of the company rules/policies. You either abide by those you agreed to upon hiring or you leave and find a job elsewhere or start your own business.

Trying to imagine every possible scenario would have you barricaded in your mountain-top cabin never venturing outside for fear of what might happen.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

Last edited by FITASC; September 21, 2015 at 02:22 PM.
FITASC is offline  
Old September 21, 2015, 01:56 PM   #77
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
Quote:
I realize that good, law-abiding citizens can ignore the law
Isn't that a contradictory statement?
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 21, 2015, 02:04 PM   #78
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
Yes, of course. But sometimes it really seems like some otherwise good people from good families believe that they are the "good guys" and can ignore the law when it suits them. It's like a form of civil disobedience. But then it begs the question, "if that's so, then who are the bad guys?"
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old September 21, 2015, 02:50 PM   #79
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
Whilst I think that by breaking the law you cannot be called law-abiding I will say that if the action is one of civil disobedience this can still be motivated by a sound moral foundation.

In the eyes of the law it may well get you classed as a "criminal" but you'd probably still be a "good guy".

That doesn't however mean all civil obedience is morally sound.

I say this in general terms, not necessarily in relation to specifics in this thread.

Quote:
The Lt in command later told me the manager had called in a report that I had said "I was going home to get a gun and come back to shoot everyone." The biggest irony of all was that I had no arms at all at the time either at the home or on my person--I even invited the police in to search my home.
I hope the manager was taken to court for lying to the police.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 21, 2015, 04:26 PM   #80
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,290
Quote:
I hope the manager was taken to court for lying to the police.
I was informed by a lawyer I was lucky I wasn't hauled off to jail. Deep south--some parts of which they make their own laws. I followed up with the police--they said "heat of the moment...he said she said" kinda thing and that it happens all the time. Makes you wonder how easy it might be to legally get someone killed, doesn't it?
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is online now  
Old September 23, 2015, 06:39 PM   #81
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,996
Quote:
I believe that only general information can be sought from the hiring company and provided by the former company,
Although good policy, I believe it is born out of fear of civil liability, not criminal. Anything stated by a previous employer which can not be proved in court is grounds for defamation. Want to make a few bucks? Have someone call previous employers ask to speak to any manager you didn't get along with, ask questions about you, and record their responses. They say anything stupid and the company will hand you a heavy purse if their counsel is smart.

Quote:
You either abide by those you agreed to upon hiring or you leave and find a job elsewhere or start your own business.
In US contract law a person can not sign away a right as part of an employment agreement. Almost every policy manual and employment contract I have signed, from either side of the table, has had clauses that were almost certainly not enforceable. Not that concealed carry is a right everywhere according to US laws.

I do a lot of work on short term contract basis. It isn't worth my time to get into these things personally, and it isn't for most others either, but if you want to make a mes there are lots of opportunities.

In most workplaces you are dealing with very short ranges. It takes more training, but a knife can be just as effective as a gun at close range in the hands of a healthy adult of medium build. In my area 10-15% of guys carry some sort of knife, usually a folder. The box openers with replaceable blades are especially innocuous. They limit your options to less than what I am comfortable with, but they will get the job done if needed. Also great at accomplishing all sorts of mundane office tasks. Like cutting the plastic bindings on new boxes of paper. Guns aren't magic.

If you are carrying at work against policy and you are using deep enough concealment to really limit chances of dropping the firearm or an ND, the company is probably better off without you.

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; September 23, 2015 at 06:49 PM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old September 24, 2015, 12:27 AM   #82
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 12,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49
I would have thought there are lots of jobs in America where it would be illegal to carry a firearm, am i wrong. ?
Yes, you are wrong. There is a difference between "illegal" (against the klaw) and simply being prohibited by company policy. And many American companies have no policy at all on the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49
Is it worth losing your job because your fear of crime stops you going to work without carrying a firearm.
IMHO, yes, it is. Absolutely.

You are how old, 18? 19? I'm sorry, I don't remember.

I suspect that you have never been the subject of direct, credible threats against your life. I have. The constant feeling of unease, tension, just plain old fear is something that can't be explained. It just eats away at you -- it was far worse than anything I felt during my all expenses paid vacation in sunny southeast Asia (i.e Vietnam). It's there ALL the time. When you come home to find anonymous notes stuck in your screen door warning you not to testify, it tends to get your attention. You start hiding from windows and keeping the lights turned down (or off) in the house. You take a different route to work every day. You check your car for indications of tampering before you start the engine. You constantly scan the rear view mirror. Is it worth the possibility of losing your job to feel that you have some means of defending yourself? Yes, you bet it is.

In my case (twice -- I have bad luck) I didn't have a carry permit at the time. I didn't have to worry about losing my job (although neither employer had a no guns policy), I quit the jobs to relieve myself of the unwanted stress factor in my life.
Aguila Blanca is online now  
Old September 24, 2015, 02:23 AM   #83
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
Quote:
I suspect that you have never been the subject of direct, credible threats against your life.
Not sure that is a fair judgement.

I don't know how old Manta49 is but suspect that he is old enough to remember the violence of Northern Ireland. I suspect nowhere on the US territories saw that much violence and fear over such an extended period. I don't mean singular acts of violence like a single terrorist attack, but I mean frequent and repeated: bombings, killings, abductions.

The scenario you describe is indeed one that would be very upsetting, but is it something many would experience? As opposed to the somewhat disturbed emails in the OP?

I say this simply because I read Manta49's point to simply mean that crime exists and yes people do not want to be victims of it, but that knowledge and fear doesn't not stop them going to work without a gun. A singular, targeted threat as you describe is quite different and would be handled differently, IMO.

If I misunderstood Manta's point, I'm sure he'll correct me.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!

Last edited by Pond, James Pond; September 24, 2015 at 02:28 AM.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 24, 2015, 02:24 PM   #84
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,431
A person once told me that Pakistan was a modern, safe, civilized country. this was barely a heartbeat after discussing an armed kidnapping (which he described as a common occurrence) that involve men with automatic weapons, and several died.

Okay, there are areas of pakistan that are literal war zones. There are weapons all around that country that aren't even remotely accessible to civilians here in the states. Believing that having malls and McDonalds restaurants shows that it is a safe and civilized country was fatuous.

Our country is dangerous. I believe that pakistan is far worse. at the very least, we don't have drones occasionally dropping "collateral damage" in the civilians.
briandg is offline  
Old September 24, 2015, 03:37 PM   #85
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,800
Quote:
I suspect that you have never been the subject of direct, credible threats against your life
Quote:
Not sure that is a fair judgement.

I don't know how old Manta49 is but suspect that he is old enough to remember the violence of Northern Ireland. I suspect nowhere on the US territories saw that much violence and fear over such an extended period. I don't mean singular acts of violence like a single terrorist attack, but I mean frequent and repeated: bombings, killings, abductions.
You make a fair point, i grew up trough the terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland and have had a direct and credible threat against my life because of my job. Enough that part of my routine before going to work was to check under my car for explosive devices, a favorite weapon of the IRA. I also had to check under my wife's car because here job as a psychiatric nurse took her into prisons as part of a health care team that made her a target too. So as far as violence and the fear of violence i do speak from experience more than, as you say most Americans will thankfully ever have to experience. A photo bellow of the police station in the small village i live in after a visit from the IRA and a 400 lbs car bomb. And i manage to function in work and at home without carrying a firearm.

Quote:
Almost 2 percent of the population of Northern Ireland have been killed or injured as a result of political violence since 1969. The equivalent ratio of victims to population in Great Britain during the same period would have been over 100,000 killed, and in the USA over 500,000, about ten times the number of Americans killed during the Vietnam war.
Quote:
3,725 people were killed as a result of the conflict.
• Approximately 47,541 people were injured.
• There were 36,923 shootings.
• 16,209 bombings were conducted.

Last edited by manta49; September 25, 2015 at 02:33 PM.
manta49 is offline  
Old September 26, 2015, 09:30 PM   #86
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 954
Lots of paranoid people that think danger lurks around every corner. I choose not to spend my life being paranoid and at condition 10 orange level 6 yada yada. I was not that way in the Marines overseas so why should I be here I use common sense and stay out of the bad areas. If a problem arises I will deal with it.
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40
kgpcr is offline  
Old September 27, 2015, 04:41 AM   #87
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,800
Quote:
I was not that way in the Marines overseas so why should I be here I use common sense and stay out of the bad areas. If a problem arises I will deal with it.
I agree take commonsense precautions, and get on with your life. To be on full alert all the time and change your lifestyle because of fear of attack etc, just hands a victory to the criminals and terrorists.
manta49 is offline  
Old September 27, 2015, 06:00 AM   #88
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
While the level of possible danger one might face is an arguable point, it is not possible to be on "full alert" all the time. You might be close most of the time but not all the time.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old September 27, 2015, 06:37 AM   #89
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,290
Set conditions for 1SQ.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is online now  
Old September 27, 2015, 03:26 PM   #90
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,645
I don't see it as paranoia to get a bad feeling about a situation. The human mind has evolved some unconscious, or at least difficult to verbally express, recognition of danger. To ignore the recognition of a threat is foolish.

Paranoia is a mental illness, one aspect of which is the perception of unreal threats. To presume to make such a diagnosis without qualifications, or be qualified and to make such a diagnosis without adequately examining a patient, is malpractice. The tendency on gun boards to pronounce any who are armed in situations in which the writer is content to be unarmed as being "paranoid" is completely self-centered and reminiscent of the kind of thinking of those who think that no one anywhere should be armed; to wit, "Anyone who disagrees with my assessment of threat and response is mentally ill."

Last edited by TailGator; September 27, 2015 at 03:31 PM. Reason: Spelling correction
TailGator is offline  
Old September 27, 2015, 03:36 PM   #91
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 2,150
Best thing I learned about situational awareness is to stop looking for POSSIBLE threats and look for PROBABLE threats. That alone helped me reduce my stress level and enjoy the world around me while still paying attention.
seeker_two is offline  
Old September 27, 2015, 03:56 PM   #92
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 5,128
Quote:
I don't see it as paranoia to get a bad feeling about a situation.
True, until you get to the point that you stash a gun in every room in your house AND on your person and won't even go to the bathroom because you fear a home invasion when you turn that light on.
If your neighborhood is truly as I described, then move - get away from the paranoia and stress as that will kill you faster than armed robber and the odds are greater as well.

Common sense is one thing; OCD paranoia is another
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old September 27, 2015, 08:09 PM   #93
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 12,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgpcr
If a problem arises I will deal with it.
But ... you're a Marine. Remember:

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."
Aguila Blanca is online now  
Old September 27, 2015, 08:10 PM   #94
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,151
Quote:
To be on full alert all the time and change your lifestyle because of fear of attack etc, just hands a victory to the criminals and terrorists.
We really need to abandon this absolutely and absurdly claimed consequence that if we do something to counter bad people, that we have somehow given them a victory.

First and foremost, nobody is on full alert 24/7 despite what they claim. I have had fun standing behind SD instructors who have made such claims, as I go through the motions of a mock stabbing or pulling a gun and shooting them and having them never notice my actions. It is a bunch of chest-beating bravado.

And even if we do have to make changes, it does not mean the bad guys or terrorists have won. It it totally illogical to believe that our culture specifically, and human society in general is somehow supposed to remain unchanged. They are in a continued state of change. We may not like it, but that is the way that it is. Just because the situation around you changes and you don't want to change to deal with it does not mean that you have "won" anything. Failing to change or adapt may actually be very detrimental to your preservation. As noted in biology, which your environment changes, you must adapt, mutate, migrate, or you will die. There is no "win" or "lose."
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old September 27, 2015, 08:18 PM   #95
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 12,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by FITASC
True, until you get to the point that you stash a gun in every room in your house AND on your person and won't even go to the bathroom because you fear a home invasion when you turn that light on.
If your neighborhood is truly as I described, then move - get away from the paranoia and stress as that will kill you faster than armed robber and the odds are greater as well.
There are no safe neighborhoods any more. Ask Dr, Petit. (Hint: You can't ask his wife or his daughters, because they were murdered.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshi...vasion_murders

Cheshire, Connecticut, is a very up-scale bedroom community. The kind of place where things like that "don't happen."
Aguila Blanca is online now  
Old September 28, 2015, 06:49 AM   #96
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
I don't think paranoia is necessarily a mental illness. It is a natural human reaction to be afraid of certain things or certain places. You may still do things in spite of your fear, which is to say you overcome your fear but are still afraid anyway.

One might say that paranoia is a form of vanity in which you are afraid that someone or some thing is out to get you in particular.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old September 28, 2015, 07:06 AM   #97
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
At best Paranoia is defined as an irrationally harsh view of given situation.

At worst it is a mental illness.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 28, 2015, 07:24 AM   #98
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 5,128
Quote:
There are no safe neighborhoods any more.
Yes, there are; but some aren't as safe anymore as they once were, while others are just fine.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old September 28, 2015, 08:28 AM   #99
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,854
We are well into four pages and have drifted back and forth across a small lake.
OldMarksman is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09913 seconds with 11 queries