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Old April 8, 2018, 04:19 PM   #26
WVsig
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Originally Posted by 74A95 View Post
There are three factors that contribute to accuracy. They aren't the same and should not be confused with one another.

1) The accuracy potential of the ammunition. Not all ammo is equally accurate. That is the subject of this thread, if I'm reading the OP's post correctly.

2) The mechanical accuracy of the gun. Not all guns are equally accurate.

3) The skill of the shooter. Not all shooters are equally skilled. Your comments appear to be directed to this factor.
My comments are unless I enjoy watching a Ransom Rest shoot a gun why do I care about your #1 and #2. If my goal is to shoot the gun in my hands the only thing that matters is how I shoot the gun with X ammo. It does not matter if the gun shoots X groups out of a machine.

Absolutely all guns have difference levels of accuracy potential. All ammunition has as a particular accuracy potential and it will vary from one gun to another, a point you seem to be missing.

My point is who cares. Are you shooting out of a rest everytime you shoot a gun? I doubt it. So lets say we take a Les Baer 1911 with a 50 yard accuracy guarantee and you strap it into a rest. You shoot every kind of ammo you can get your hands on and you determine which round is the most accurate out of this particular gun. Unless you are always going to shoot it out of that rest with that ammo, and the manufacturer of said ammo does not change the spec, what did your testing tell you about how the gun is going to shoot in your hands.

NOT A DAMN THING unless you are a Ranson Rest. LOL My comments are that the exercise of what is the most accurate ammo out of X gun that takes the shooter out of the equation is a meaningless exercise because it has no relation to how the gun with a particular ammo will shoot in a individuals hands. Clearly you see value in the exercise.

I know for me I am always the weakest link in the chain. YMMV

Oh and the OP is specifically talking about shooting the gun with his own hands not what it can do in a rest you so clearly did not even bother to read the OP. So your entire ransom rest discussion is not applicable to the topic at hand. To the OP sorry for the thread drift.

Quote:
Again, the only object here is to see what size groups the guns are capable of, (and in human hands, not a machine rest) and we wish for a good, accurate factory load to use to "level the playing field" as far as ammo is concerned.
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Old April 8, 2018, 06:24 PM   #27
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If my goal is to shoot the gun in my hands the only thing that matters is how I shoot the gun with X ammo. It does not matter if the gun shoots X groups out of a machine.
Disagree. As Jeff Cooper said, the dispersion of the shooter is added to the dispersion of the ammunition. Therefore it can only be desired that the ammunition have no dispersion at all.

The best shooter cannot shoot a good score with poor ammunition. The poor shooter will at least know what he is doing wrong with good ammunition.
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Old April 8, 2018, 06:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Disagree. As Jeff Cooper said, the dispersion of the shooter is added to the dispersion of the ammunition. Therefore it can only be desired that the ammunition have no dispersion at all.

The best shooter cannot shoot a good score with poor ammunition. The poor shooter will at least know what he is doing wrong with good ammunition.
I am not against good ammo I think that trying to find "the best" ammo with a rest is exercise in futility. Most ammo is going to be inherently more accurate than most shooters.
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Old April 8, 2018, 06:49 PM   #29
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I was shooting a 9mm in conventional and some international pistol a few years back so I played around with loads quite a bit. You can get 9mms to shoot in the order of 2" groups @ 50 yards but IMHO, it takes more effort than say a 45. Seating depth makes a big difference in 9mms and they are very fussy. I was shooting some standing at 25 yards and the only difference in these targets is about 0.035" seating depth and you can see what it does on the target. I also learned that you will get the best accuracy from Power Pistol regardless the pistol. As far as factory ammo, match stuff will generally shoot better than standard range ammo and the heavier bullets seem to be the most forgiving. In any case, hand loading to the pistol's preference has yielded better results across the board. Hope this helps.

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Old April 8, 2018, 06:54 PM   #30
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When I was reloading a lot of pistol (revolver) I could load more accurate than factory ammo.

When I started in on 9mm, I found while my stuff was ok, it was not much if any better than the general bulk ammo.

What I did find was the gun loved Remington Golden Sabre. As I have a laser and I make sure I am still where I want to be after shooting with whats in the clip (yea I know, alwyas called them clips) and the GS would be a bulleye.

I had some bullets and I could not reload those any better.

I can't afford to shoot the GS much, but it sure clearly was loved by at least the gun I have.
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Old April 8, 2018, 07:01 PM   #31
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As Jeff Cooper said, the dispersion of the shooter is added to the dispersion of the ammunition
Yep...I want all the accuracy I'm capable of holding for.

In my guns (a pair of Colt Series 70's in 9mm, a Sig P226, P290, & M11A1, and a Ruger CMD 1911), I've found Federal's American Eagle 124 gr FMJ to be consistently good, with groups that average 2/3's the size of their 115 gr FMJ's. At 15 yds, on a good day, with the sun behind me, I can get 5 shot groups with those 124's that hover around 1.5" from a modified Weaver Stance. I buy them whenever Cabelas has them on sale.

Conversely, I've never had any luck with 147 gr round of any make, in any of my guns.

And while I agree with the statements made earlier, that 90+% of the time, the gun is capable of better accuracy than the shooter can muster, good ammunition builds confidence in one's training and developing abilities. I'll also agree that all guns are individuals, and will prefer certain brands and weight bullets over others; it's much more difficult to determine with a handgun. YMMV, Rod
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Old April 8, 2018, 07:05 PM   #32
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Here is an experiment that will demonstrate that there most certainly IS a difference what ammo one uses:

Go to the range with your choice of "it doesn't matter" brand plinking ammo and attempt to shoot a group at 15 yards. Now, do the same with a Premium Gold Dot or Federal HST.

You will see there is in fact a difference. I shoot well made hand loaded ammo in all my guns but use lower cost plated and coated bullets for plinking and range practice. Occasionally I shoot some of my HST's just to make sure I can.

They produce MUCH tighter groups than any plinking ammo, and even best my hand loads which are quite good IMO.

Short version: yes ammo matters.
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Old April 8, 2018, 11:11 PM   #33
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This is very good ammo.
https://atlantaarms.com/
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Old April 8, 2018, 11:18 PM   #34
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I'd be surprised to learn that the 210 with it's best ammo, would outperform your Contender with it's best performing ammo. Within my humble experience, 210s are certainly accurate pistols, whether of Swiss, German or US manufacture. But the Contender with it's fixed barrel is reportedly capable of rifle like accuracy.
My experience is that the fixed barrel (in relationship to the sights) and the excellent (SA) trigger of the Contender literally make it a shooting machine of the first order. Some Contenders actually will outshoot some rifles.

Quote:
Can a semi-auto pistol compete with that level of accuracy? Especially if your Contender is scoped, and the 210 utilizes iron sights. Hope you'll share some of your results with us.
This is the point of the exercise (besides playing with the new Sig )
The guns will be shot with the stock open sights. The SIG has lovely "glowing" dots on the sights, the Contender is just plain black. Will that make a difference?? It might, then again it might not. I'm sure it would, if speed were part of the test but its not.

Both guns have reputations for fine accuracy. All we're going to do is see how true that is, in our hands, with the examples (the individual guns) that we have. We already have some of the ammo that has been mentioned, and will be getting some of the others to check out as well.

As to the machine rest "controversy" the main reason I'm not interested in machine rest results is that I don't have one. If one of you fine folks wishes to donate (or just loan) us a Ransom rest and the needed instruction to use it effectively, we'll be happy to use it.

This is not meant to be a "to the death" competition for the title of most accurate, its just a friendly "lets see what we can do" kind of thing.

And yes, I'll be reporting our results, eventually...
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Old April 8, 2018, 11:38 PM   #35
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Depends on the gun.

My two Kahr pistols shoot best with Federal 9BP. I used to do all my accuracy testing with Federal 9BP because it seemed like it gave very consistent results. However, I don't shoot many of my range-use only pistols with JHP rounds due to cost issues.

So, the following results are for FMJ practice-type ammunition.

I've had really good luck with Fiocchi 115gr FMJ in Beretta pistols. Many years ago when my only autopistol was a Beretta 92FS, I read an article in which the author (with help) tested a large number of different types of 9mm ammunition through a Beretta pistol using a Ransom Rest. Out of the 30-35 different types of ammo tested, Fiocchi came in third. I bought some and found it was very accurate in my 92FS as well.

The best groups I've posted with a Glock 9mm were with American Eagle--as I recall, my STI GP6 (Grand Power K100) and CZ-75B also really like American Eagle.
Quote:
Most ammo is going to be inherently more accurate than most shooters.
Back before my eyes started making me think my arms are too short, I managed 25 yard groups of 2" and even smaller with American Eagle 9mm in various handguns.

I have run into ammo that's low quality enough to have a significant impact on accuracy, but for the post part, based on my experience, it's not ammo that causes most handgun accuracy issues.
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Old April 9, 2018, 01:25 AM   #36
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44AMP, The wife and I are shooting 2 9mm's, a Taurus PT92C and a Springfield XD Mod2 4.0

We have shot both Winchester and Federal factory loads as a baseline and hand load plated as a diet. I have tried both Berry's and XTREME in both 115gr and 124gr weights and RN, FP and the Berry's Hollow Base Flat Point. With these I have been trying three different powders at start load, mid-load and just below max load. For my loads I set .2gr below max as the cut off.

So far for myself shooting the Taurus PT92C I find the Berry's 124gr. HBFPTP loaded to mid level with HP-38 powder to be the most consistent and accurate. This is followed by this same bullet using Ramshot Silhouette at just above starting loads.

For the XD Mod2 I shoot a 115gr RN Berry's with HP-38 just above starting loads to be the most accurate as does the wife. She also shoots this load the most consistently in my Taurus PT92C.

All shooting is taking place indoors, standing with a two handed grip at 7yds. to 15yds.

My idea is that I want to know what I can shoot and hit the most consistently standing while using a two handed grip because if I am called upon to defend myself or my family I won't be shooting from some supported rest.
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Old April 9, 2018, 07:51 AM   #37
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To the OP what distance are you shooting these guns at?
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Old April 9, 2018, 09:19 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by WVsig View Post
For factory ammo I like Swiss Greco 124 gr. It is very consistent and well made. Shoots nice groups in Sigs, CZs, 1911s & Glocks.



Mem is high quality NATO ball. Outstanding German quality. https://www.sgammo.com/product/surpl...-germany-men9b



For me what separates avg plinking ammo and good target ammo is consistency lot to lot. You just don't get that with WWB, Blazer etc.. but then again I don't shoot for tiny groups very often so take my info with a grain of salt.
WV Sig, thanks for the Post. I have a new Nano and have been experimenting with all kinds of ammo. This gun is running flawless now with about 7-10 different brands and now over 1000 rds. 115gr 124 and 147. I find that I like hotter shooting ammo with this gun, It handles it marvelously. I like Fiocchi, and Perfecta, and It shoots PrecisionOne very accurately. I have heard a lot about the MEM. Looking forward to testing it how.

Tks


Details & Specs

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This ammo is no exception to their quality. This 9mm ammunition is brass cased, non-corrosive, boxer primed and completely reloadable. It has a 2015 manufacture date. It's perfect for target shooting or plinking. Give your 9mm what it wants and load it up with this ammunition.

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Get ready to hit the range and order today!
Key Specifications

Item number: 668005
Mfg. Number: MEN9MM
UPC: 754908919222
Caliber: 9mm Luger, also known as 9x19mm and 9mm Parabellum
Bullet Weight: 124 grain
Bullet Style: FMJ
Muzzle Velocity: 1,200 FPS
Muzzle Energy: 382 ft.-lbs.
Case Type: Brass
Primer Type: Boxer, reloadable
Corrosive: No
Rounds: 1,000

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Old April 9, 2018, 09:52 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by WVsig
My comments are unless I enjoy watching a Ransom Rest shoot a gun why do I care about your #1 and #2. If my goal is to shoot the gun in my hands the only thing that matters is how I shoot the gun with X ammo. It does not matter if the gun shoots X groups out of a machine.

Absolutely all guns have difference levels of accuracy potential. All ammunition has as a particular accuracy potential and it will vary from one gun to another, a point you seem to be missing.

My point is who cares. Are you shooting out of a rest everytime you shoot a gun? I doubt it. So lets say we take a Les Baer 1911 with a 50 yard accuracy guarantee and you strap it into a rest. You shoot every kind of ammo you can get your hands on and you determine which round is the most accurate out of this particular gun. Unless you are always going to shoot it out of that rest with that ammo, and the manufacturer of said ammo does not change the spec, what did your testing tell you about how the gun is going to shoot in your hands.

NOT A DAMN THING unless you are a Ranson Rest. LOL My comments are that the exercise of what is the most accurate ammo out of X gun that takes the shooter out of the equation is a meaningless exercise because it has no relation to how the gun with a particular ammo will shoot in a individuals hands. Clearly you see value in the exercise.

I know for me I am always the weakest link in the chain. YMMV

Oh and the OP is specifically talking about shooting the gun with his own hands not what it can do in a rest you so clearly did not even bother to read the OP. So your entire ransom rest discussion is not applicable to the topic at hand. To the OP sorry for the thread drift.
I believe that most guns are capable of better accuracy than most shooters. With that said, the exercise to find the most accurate load is not futile. Guns are obviously tested on a ransom rest to remove the issues of steadiness, aim, and trigger pull from the equation. Without it, I do not believe anyone is capable of really extracting that data without introducing those variables.

So what value does it add then? Pretend a gun was a laser mounted on a stable platform and could hit the same spot every time. Each variable you adds to the size of the group. If you start out with a very accurate gun, you reduce your margin of error. Then you add match grade ammo to minimize that variable. At that point, then you can compare shooters based on their ability, rather than the variability introduced by the equipment. Basically, the same gun and same ammo shot by different shooters will allow you to judge the true skill of the shooters. So basically, if a gun and ammo combination is capable of 1.5" at 50 yards, and you shoot 2", you know you were only .5" off of the gun's capability.
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Old April 9, 2018, 10:33 AM   #40
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I believe that most guns are capable of better accuracy than most shooters. With that said, the exercise to find the most accurate load is not futile. Guns are obviously tested on a ransom rest to remove the issues of steadiness, aim, and trigger pull from the equation. Without it, I do not believe anyone is capable of really extracting that data without introducing those variables.

So what value does it add then? Pretend a gun was a laser mounted on a stable platform and could hit the same spot every time. Each variable you adds to the size of the group. If you start out with a very accurate gun, you reduce your margin of error. Then you add match grade ammo to minimize that variable. At that point, then you can compare shooters based on their ability, rather than the variability introduced by the equipment. Basically, the same gun and same ammo shot by different shooters will allow you to judge the true skill of the shooters. So basically, if a gun and ammo combination is capable of 1.5" at 50 yards, and you shoot 2", you know you were only .5" off of the gun's capability.
Of course I agree with you. And I never or very seldom shoot my CCW guns as target guns which I see so many people do at the ranges I go to. I am a point and shoot (instinctive shooter). I belong to the philosophy Of fast draw and quick center mass shooting. However, I like the way certain ammo feels in my hand, with the gun. And the gun is a individual that prefers certain ammo.
Just a matter of "BECOMING ONE WITH THE GUN"

Triggers? That will always be a subjective subject. I personally, and I repeat Personally do not want nor care for a short, Crisp light trigger, and I have never rode the reset. And I shoot too many guns to learn one reset. For fast action shooting I do absoutley fine with a longer pull and to not need a trigger that has a "Glass Break". IMO the only time I feel I need a light trigger is for target shooting. Taking my time, getting the right stance and blah blah and slower squeezing the trigger..
What kills me is this is observed with small pocket guns all the time. And small 9mm's.
I suspect that is why so many pocket guns are coming out with such light triggers. People want a super light trigger to target shoot them.
Shoot a longer heavier trigger and I can shoot as well or better. It has become like a fad to get lighter triggers as seen on the internet. Fine, just not for me.

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Old April 9, 2018, 11:28 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker
Triggers? That will always be a subjective subject. I personally, and I repeat Personally do not want nor care for a short, Crisp light trigger, and I have never rode the reset. And I shoot too many guns to learn one reset. For fast action shooting I do absoutley fine with a longer pull and to not need a trigger that has a "Glass Break". IMO the only time I feel I need a light trigger is for target shooting. Taking my time, getting the right stance and blah blah and slower squeezing the trigger..
What kills me is this is observed with small pocket guns all the time. And small 9mm's.
I suspect that is why so many pocket guns are coming out with such light triggers. People want a super light trigger to target shoot them.
Shoot a longer heavier trigger and I can shoot as well or better. It has become like a fad to get lighter triggers as seen on the internet. Fine, just not for me.
Carl,
I'm pretty sure that you would agree that we are responsible for every round that leaves our guns. A concealed carry gun is not meant as a "target gun" per se, but a nicer trigger can mean the difference between a hit and a miss. While statistically most gun fights occur at very close distances, adding stress and adrenaline to the equation tends to open up groupings considerably. Why not give yourself every advantage you can? The other thing is a longer trigger pull can cause you to pull a shot, which could mean hitting a bystander.

I am part of a "practical shooting" club where we shoot while moving, shoot rapid fire, and shoot at varying distances. I used to carry a Kahr PM9, but the long double action pull affects my ability to shoot well at longer distances. I have put thousands of round through that gun, but I decided to buy a Glock 43 after trying another member's gun. Even then, I wasn't fully satisfied with the trigger and added the Ghost Pro trigger. I am able to make much better hits from longer distances compared to my Kahr PM9 so I am definitely happy with the change.
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Old April 9, 2018, 11:53 AM   #42
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74A95 is correct. Lock a gun in a ransom rest and different ammo will produce widely different results. Now unless you are going to shoot your gun always using a ransom rest, it is best to test the ammo that YOU shoot the best in YOUR gun and the OP did ask to see what seemed to produce the best overall results probably hoping for a somewhat common answer.

When I was shooting Bullseye competition, my Hammerli's 22's came with a test target using XYZ (usually Eley). On each of these guns I found I shot better with something else and in some guns plain old CCI high velocity gave ME the best scores. Far better shooters than me after getting great results with a specific ammo would contact the factory to make sure they could purchase a large lot of that specific run number.

In the hands of the vast majority of shooters using mass produced firearms, shooting 9mm ammo which in my opinion is not a terribly accurate cartridge in the first place and since OP was talking about a Sig P210, his may be a good question to take over to a Bullseye forum or contact Sig themselves.
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Old April 9, 2018, 01:38 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by gnystrom
74A95 is correct. Lock a gun in a ransom rest and different ammo will produce widely different results. Now unless you are going to shoot your gun always using a ransom rest, it is best to test the ammo that YOU shoot the best in YOUR gun and the OP did ask to see what seemed to produce the best overall results probably hoping for a somewhat common answer.
Could you please explain what the difference would be between a specific round being fired from a Ransom Rest and the same round fired from the same gun, hand held is? I'm not sure how introducing additional variables, such as sight picture, trigger control, and additional movement could actually yield anything other than wider groups.

I know about bulls eye shooters buying specific lots of ammo that performed well in their guns, but I'm not sure why. If the bullets weight the same and are loaded for the same velocities, is it the powder and the specific atmospheric conditions when it was loaded? I know that different velocities could affect accuracy. If you had a very low spread in velocities, should you expect very high precision?
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Old April 9, 2018, 01:59 PM   #44
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Could you please explain what the difference would be between a specific round being fired from a Ransom Rest and the same round fired from the same gun, hand held is? I'm not sure how introducing additional variables, such as sight picture, trigger control, and additional movement could actually yield anything other than wider groups.

I know about bulls eye shooters buying specific lots of ammo that performed well in their guns, but I'm not sure why. If the bullets weight the same and are loaded for the same velocities, is it the powder and the specific atmospheric conditions when it was loaded? I know that different velocities could affect accuracy. If you had a very low spread in velocities, should you expect very high precision?
Manufacturers change powders specs etc... all the time to meet demand. That is why if a shooter who found the holy grail for ammo out of their particular gun would want to buy as much ammo from the same lot as they reasonably could.
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Old April 9, 2018, 02:33 PM   #45
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Manufacturers change powders specs etc... all the time to meet demand. That is why if a shooter who found the holy grail for ammo out of their particular gun would want to buy as much ammo from the same lot as they reasonably could.
I understand that. If the bullet weight remained exactly the same and there was a way to minimize the velocity spread, could we expect a high level of precision? I understand that it is not as easy to create consistent combustion with gun powder as it is with a vapor. Even then, temperature and humidity affect combustion in vehicles.

The strange thing is that the variance is not just on a vertical axis, as would be logical conclusion from variances in velocity. Even then, the variance should not be that pronounced for short distances as the actual bullet drop from travel time would be minimal. I wonder if there would be less variance if the bullets were fired in a vacuum, that way atmospheric variances would be removed as well. This is strictly from an intellectual point of view rather than a practical one.
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Old April 9, 2018, 03:16 PM   #46
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If the bullet weight remained exactly the same and there was a way to minimize the velocity spread, could we expect a high level of precision?
There is no correlation between variance in velocity and group size with a typical handgun at typical handgun distance. Smaller extreme spreads don't result in smaller groups. See the article below:

https://americanhandgunner.com/exclu...city-accuracy/
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Old April 9, 2018, 03:44 PM   #47
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Thanks for linking the article. I know the twist rate in the rifling is important for stabilizing different weight bullets. I was expecting consistent velocities to reduce group sizes, but apparently that isn't the case. How does Les Baer guarantee their 1.5" group size? Is specific ammo required? I own one of their Monolith Heavyweights with the minimum group size guarantee but I can't see much difference from the Thunder Ranch Special I have. While I consider myself a decent shot, I do not believe I can shoot well enough to make the other gun stand out. Maybe I need to shoot the same ammo and shoot them one right after another.
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Old April 9, 2018, 05:48 PM   #48
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I was expecting consistent velocities to reduce group sizes, but apparently that isn't the case.
It is, and it isn't. It is uniformity that produces the smallest groups, and consistent velocity is part of that, but not the only part.

And, looking only at velocity variations, it become a question of how much, over how far. A 50fps variance might show a difference from a bench rest rifle at 100yards. A very small difference, but a detectable one. In the benchrest game, a difference of 0.001" might be the difference between winning a match, or not.

The same amount of velocity difference is undetectable when the range is 25yds and the gun isn't a bench rest rifle. Other factors have greater effects in that situation.

To get a difference that can be easily seen, with a handgun at handgun ranges, the difference in velocity has to be much larger.

Still, its easily done. Shoot with the same bullet at 800fps and 1200fps. Mixed randomly in the gun. This much of a difference is usually enough to see, easily. You'll get one "large" group, which is actually two smaller groups, one for each speed group. Different rounds shooting to different points of impact with the same point of aim, at the same distance, due to a drastic difference in velocity.

So, what matters is how great a difference there is in velocity between individual bullets. Small differences, say load A has a 50fps deviation, and load B is "only" 38fps deviation, theory says B should shoot a tighter group. Reality is, it may not. That small amount of detectable difference may not (and usually doesn't) show any detectable difference in group size on the target. A few hundred fps variation is a completely different matter, and DOES result in quite obvious differences on the target.
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Old April 9, 2018, 07:02 PM   #49
Brit
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Shot an international type of Competition, in Toronto, at the oldest Club In the City. TRC Toronto Revolver Club, 100 years plus of age.

My Pistol was 3 calibres, 22 LR/ 22 short/ 32 L rimmed revolver rounds.
The .32 bullet weighed 90g swaged. Lead soft very, cut from a lead line of pure lead. 1.4g of 700X I bought in 12 lb kegs, in Buffalo NYS.

In my early 40s, I shot a few slow fire possibles, ten rounds into a 1" group. At 20m. It had only one frame, your hand fit into it. You replaced the .22lr, with the .32 long. Barrel and slide, same trigger, 3lbs.
My dead still hand? Got a little shaky with age! Still, do OK with my Glock 19.

Hard to beat a legally concealed gun, under a shirt though! God Bless the USA.
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Old April 9, 2018, 10:25 PM   #50
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I am guess I feel somewhat vindicated when I said my Ruger GP100 shot much more accurately with .357 magnum and groups were not that great with .38 special. That thing is a tack driver with .357 mag!
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