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Old September 15, 2018, 12:36 PM   #51
cw308
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Hey guys I know I was off topic , may deserve a slap on the wrist OK now move on .

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Old September 15, 2018, 01:02 PM   #52
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Not just you, the whole reloading shooting affray.
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Old September 15, 2018, 01:30 PM   #53
Nathan
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I love a little friendly banter, but this is becoming a lube thread!



Back to the OP....I find it that both are applied to the same applications...both designs are being matured....

All this while things like firing pin safeties or low energy pre-cocking technology are ignored....I do wish the firing pin locking safeties were more wide spread...
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Old September 15, 2018, 02:27 PM   #54
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I don't know how much more maturation we can reasonably expect.
We've got variations on the classic Remington 700 with improved extractors, we've got three-lugged push feed designs, and the Mauser in modern form has been slightly upgraded by beveling its extractor to slip around a case rim on direct chamber loading.

The original Mauser design typically could not be direct loaded.

Dunno how much more we can expect in progression with either boltgun platform.
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Old September 15, 2018, 03:00 PM   #55
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And then Savage came out with the floating bolt face . Something new to me but control an push feed I'm sure will be around forever .
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Old September 15, 2018, 03:09 PM   #56
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Much like Striker vs Hammer fired pistols.

I would never have guess anyone would like a hard to pull striker when you can have a good revolver like feel.

As long as it does what you want and like how it does it, that is bottom line.
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Old September 15, 2018, 03:19 PM   #57
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RC20 is the next guy in the barrel.
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Old September 15, 2018, 05:23 PM   #58
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Quote:
I don't know how much more maturation we can reasonably expect.

That's hard to say, and honestly, change is always promoted as maturation or improvement, but change is quite often done just for the sake of change. Pillar bedding and fiberglass stocks were great. Not so much the 788. Remington made it with three bolt sets, what was it, 4 separate lugs per set?

Ooopsie, the bolt and lugs were at the back of the action, which failed to hold the thing solidly and make the action as rigid as a front locking system. The bolts supposedly were far stronger with all of the tabs, rather than just a couple of monolithic lugs. Testing of the things with prussian blue showed that even after firing a few rounds, the tabs weren't making contact in some actions.


Improvement is incremental and on a curve, with diminishing returns. What new design features can we genuinely expect over the next ten years that will Truly change the face of the average shooter's guns?


from wikipedia

By Hardwarefreak - Fujitsu digital camera, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?curid=38634047
1280px-Remington_788_bolt_and_lugs.png

By Hardwarefreak - Fujitsu digital camera, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?curid=38634047

I'm working my way through this book, in it the author claims that a machinist was capable of measuring to one-millionth of an inch in the 1800s.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072BFJB3Z/ref=docs-os-doi_0

Not true. He had one piece of equipment calibrated to that degree, he could not possibly have truly measured and returned an accurate measure of that minuteness. That's a fraction of the size of a human blood cell.

I guess that my point is that skepticism is the one most important process to finding the truth.
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Old September 16, 2018, 06:00 AM   #59
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Push Feed or CRF....off topic

CRF: I had a rifle built up on a WW2 German action. The gunsmith modified the extractor so the extractor would snap over the rim into the groove. Works great. There has been no occasion to feed cartridges that way. On most Mauser's you can push the tail of the extractor. This lifts the claw enough to all catch the cartridge. On my CZ 550 King Kong could not move that CRF extractor. On the net you will get these stories. My.....rifle accidentally discharged as the bolt handle came off and the extractor failed. These problems became an epidemic on the net. Push feed is fine as is CRF.
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Old September 16, 2018, 08:34 AM   #60
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The market has spoken and it says I like both.
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Old September 16, 2018, 11:00 AM   #61
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Elmer keith who is my god and guru used to fart out siamese kittens if you mentioned push feed bolts. But then he also used to fart out badgers if you mentioned bolts for african game. You don't want to know what happened if you suggested that he should use noisy, brass tossing ejectors rather than nice, quiet extractors.

Elmer, my god and guru is an angry god and he is not to be messed with; this explains why remington went down in flames.

I do dislike that controlled feed must be taken from the magazine in some rifles, leaving you with one less capacity. Seriously, though, five rounds isn't enough in the rifle? I have never missed a first shot in this life or any of my previous ones.

Still have a preference for controlled feed for outdoors or hunting, range guns I actually like push fed. I don't have to load into the magazine to get the round into the chamber.

Maybe i'm wrong, but don't the europeans make more models in controlled feed than we do?
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Old September 16, 2018, 12:47 PM   #62
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Chris

Quote:
Still waiting to hear back from F.Guffey
Did you verify the gage? You checked the length of the chamber with a go-gage + a .002" shim meaning your chamber length is about half way between a go-gage length chamber and a no go-gage length chamber.

Quote:
My fired cases are 1.629 from expansion
I would get all of my gages to agree, your fired cases indicate you have a .003" discrepancy. When verifying the 308W a datum diameter of .400" is used but if you are using Sinclair/Hornady tools you can forget matching all of the numbers.

You used a go-gage + a shim of .002" to check the length of the chamber, that is not necessary; you could have used the no go-gage if you knew your way around chambers and gages.

As to sizing the case for the bench rester; the bench rester should learn to verify the length of his cases from the datum to the case head in thousandths and use the same gage used to verify the go-gage. If the gages do not agree I suggest the bench rester use the gage as a comparator.

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Old September 16, 2018, 12:51 PM   #63
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Quote:
That's true if your bottomed die to shellholder is giving you a .016 size
To be clear; I adjusted the die off the shell holder enough to add the .014" feeler gage meaning the gap between the top of the sell holder and bottom of the die was .014" after removing the shim.

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Old September 16, 2018, 02:46 PM   #64
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I prefer crf for nostalgia and safety. Safety in the sense that on a number of occassions I got an opportunity to shoot with my rem 700 pf and while the round was fed, I did not close the bolt as the opportunity passed. So here I am full of adrenalin, pulling bolt back without a round visible thinking gun is safe only to later discover a round in the chamber. In my Cz with crf this is not an issue. In terms of accuracy, real not theoretical, I believe 90% of us aren't good enough shots to take advantage of the benefits one has over the other. Accordingly my advise will be to get whatever talks to your heart. Personally I like my Lee Enfield action more than anything else.
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Old September 16, 2018, 03:03 PM   #65
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I like your Enfield action too, but only for nostalgia.
The cock-on-closing puts it behind a Mauser for me.
Much as I like my own Enfield.
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Old September 18, 2018, 07:34 PM   #66
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I am 72yrs old I have seen bar fights over this, at deer camp this would come up all the time in the 60s & 70s but then it just went away, now its best bullet or best new $300 gun !!!
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Old September 18, 2018, 10:00 PM   #67
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You have wisdom. it used to matter. it's not important now, we have too much to think about now. Bipod, how much for a scope, which one of the hundreds of available scopes, which of the 100 available cartridges, barrel type, and then which of the fancy schmancy bullet and brands do we use to make sure that our deer falls down and dies?

Some of the most fundamental ideas that were so important to the guys like us, the ancient warriors who used slingshots are not important anymore. the products these days are actually written by the market.

you guys can go to any gathering of deer hunters now, such as a check in station and poll hunters. Controlled feed, yes or no, or "of course I watch my diet!"
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Old Yesterday, 01:45 PM   #68
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Meh. It could just be that the market doesn't care much.

Personally, if I were designing a rifle picking and choosing features, I'd probably stick on a CRF system instead of push feed, but I also really don't care that much about it either way. For sporting rifles my stable is about 1/3 CRF's and 2/3 push feeds and all of them work fine.

I will say that for anyone who has never hunting with a CRF bolt action before they can be SLIGHTLY confusing as people will try to just drop a round into the chamber and think there's something wrong with the gun when the bolt won't close. My dad got a Ruger M77 after hunting with a Remington 742 all his life and took quite a few tries to comprehend that EVERY round needs to come from the magazine.
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Old Yesterday, 05:05 PM   #69
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"I will say that for anyone who has never hunting with a CRF bolt action before they can be SLIGHTLY confusing as people will try to just drop a round into the chamber and think there's something wrong with the gun when the bolt won't close. My dad got a Ruger M77 after hunting with a Remington 742 all his life and took quite a few tries to comprehend that EVERY round needs to come from the magazine."

Exactamento! Just so I don't forget, I single load all my bolt action rifles from the magazine. Makes no difference if it's one of my custom Mausers or a Remington M700. At the bench I push the round into the magazine prior to chambering. Same thing with my single action revolvers. I load fine beans in the wheel and put the empty chamber under the hammer. I shoot old model and new model single actions so like the one load from the magazine, a simple habit that helps keep one out of trouble.
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Old Today, 02:00 AM   #70
DPris
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My commercial CRF bolts will close on a direct-chambered round.
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Old Today, 03:53 PM   #71
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"My commercial CRF bolts will close on a direct-chambered round."

Some will and some won't. I have four rifles, J.C. Higgins M50's all based on the commercial FN action. One you can drop the case on the follower and run the shell home. The other three, no. Ain't gonna happen. Years ago I had a Husqvarna Husky based on the 640 model and it too had to be fed from the magazine. The two Mark X Mausers I had were a sometimes thing. Sometimes you could chamber off the follower and other times they had to feed from the magazine. So I just keep it simple and shove the round into the magazine, then run it into the chamber.
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Old Today, 04:35 PM   #72
DPris
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I was making the point that you can't make a blanket statement about NO CRF being direct-chamber capable.
It does vary.
My military Mauser won't do it, my commercial CRFs will.
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