308 reloads won't chamber - Page 2

**Unclenick** · February 26, 2014, 12:47 PM

Boostedtt91,

Three things.

1.) To set up any sizing die properly, you turn it to touch the shell holder, then with a lubricated case pressed all the way up into the die, you look at it sideways and with a flashlight behind it to see if a fine crack of light appears between the die and the shell holder. If it does (and it usually does due to the press stretching under the sizing force) then the die needs to be turned in further until that disappears. This Lee help video demonstrates the process. The only difference, other than their die brand's different lock nut system, is that different presses stretch different amounts, so how much extra you have to turn the press in varies a bit. 1/8 turn to as much as half a turn is needed in some instances. Use the light crack to judge. Obviously, if the sizing force from driving the case into the die stretches the press, having the die screwed in to stretch it the same amount isn't adding any load that it doesn't see anyway.

2.) Once you have that cleared up step 1.) (or even before if you are just curious about what difference clearing up step 1. makes) measure what's happening. Drop a fresh round into your case gauge. Use a caliper to measure from the gauge metal on the bullet side to the head of the case on the other side. Drop in one of your sized cases and do the same thing. Did you get a bigger measurement off your case? If so, you are not really returning the case to size. An alternative method of getting a measurement to compare is shown below.

3.) Cases that come out of a semi-auto are sometimes stretched extra by extraction. Its a timing issue. When this occurs, a standard sizing die may not be able to return it adequately to shape because brass springs back a little when you form it. If that turns out to be the case for you, you will want to buy a small base FL sizing die. You can buy them separately. It may have to be a different brand, but that really doesn't matter. But before you go there, try Mr. Guffey's trick:

Deprime a case. Remove the decapping pin from your sizing die. Slip an automotive feeler gauge into the shell holder just under the case head, so the gauge acts as a shim that raises the case. Try a a gauge the same thickness as the measurement difference you get between your case and a new one. You should be able to go as thick as 0.005" in most shell holders. If that fixes the problem, you can either get a small base die or rub the top deck of the shell holder on sandpaper against a flat surface, like a plate glass scrap, until you can adjust your existing die down far enough to size the brass enough. The shell holder from Lee is only about $4, IIRC, so you can mess several up for the cost of a die. Just be aware that different brands of shell holders use different number systems, so you want to be sure you get the right one.

boostedtt91 · February 26, 2014, 12:49 PM

Here is the other end. No there isn't a dent in the case, it just looks that way in the pic. There is a good amount of scrapes on the bottom as you can see.

boostedtt91 · February 26, 2014, 12:52 PM

I have a batch of 10 that was all reloaded at the same time. All but 4 of them will chamber. I just pulled two of the bullets of cases that won't chamber and they didn't chamber without the bullet in my ar10 or my remington 700. I ran them through the sizer once more without changing anything and now they will?? Is it possible that some cases might need to be ran through the sizer a few times or should it size correct the first time?

boostedtt91 · February 26, 2014, 01:08 PM

Unclenick,
I just checked what you listed with the light and yes there was light between the die and shell holder. I adjusted it down alittle more to where there is no more light. Im going to size a few now after adjusting it and see if they chamber ok. Thanks for the info about that, i never heard of checking that before

boostedtt91 · February 26, 2014, 01:29 PM

It looks like that might of been the issue with my die not being down far enough. I just loaded some after adjusting my die and they all are chambering and ejecting perfectly. I am still getting some scrapes on the bullet though, i dont know if thats normal or not

cw308 · February 26, 2014, 04:10 PM

You should always (cam over) slightly to get the slack out of the die & press threads, when you screw the die down till it hits the shell holder, screw the die down alittle till you feel a slight resistance on the press arm.The scratches most likely are comming from the round moving sideways when ejecting, normal. Looks Like you solved the problem. Be Safe Chris

boostedtt91 · February 26, 2014, 05:27 PM

I always do have it cam'd over some but it obviously wasn't enough in this case. I'm going to load up some more tomorrow and see if everything goes smooth still and hopefully that was all it was. Greatly appreciate everyone's advice and help!!

**Unclenick** · February 26, 2014, 06:06 PM

Cw308,

Some presses, like the Lee, have stops to prevent camover (where the handle runs past raising the ram and it starts back down again). That's why the crack of light is the universal way to check.

Boostedtt91,

Sounds like we got it, then. And yes, btw, running a case back into a die will usually take some of the springback out. I've used that method intentionally to shorten cases an extra couple of thousandths. You just run the case up, count to 5 to let it relax, withdraw it and turn the case 180° in the shell holder and do it again. Sometime a third time will help a little further.

If the scrapes on the bullet are from chambering, cover a bullet with Magic marker. Put the round in the magazine and use a sharpie to mark the extractor groove of cartridge at 12:00. After you feed and eject, that extractor groove mark will tell you where this is happening around the chamber and a flashlight and maybe a dental mirror should reveal where the ink scraped off.

A couple of things can cause this. One is just sharp chamber edges that a little crocus cloth can take the edge off of or that will gradually burnish down with use. However, seating the bullet out longer than it's designed for can do that too. SAAMI maximum COL (2.800") and military maximum COL (2.810") are only maximums. Some bullets with shorter ogives, like the Hornady FMJ, are designed to be seated a bit shorter. Check with the bullet maker for a recommended COL for their bullet.

boostedtt91 · February 27, 2014, 08:29 PM

unclenick,
I greatly appriciate all your advice, it has been very helpful!! I have these bullets loaded to 2.750" as they are 174G BTFMJ's that i don't know the manufactor of them, i just went with the length of a bullet that was close to that shape and weight in my manuals. I will give that a try with the marker as well, i have been meaning to do that. Ill give that a try tomorrow and see what happens. The scratches are vertical usually from the tip to base of the bullet and not really in any particular spot each time. Maybe cause its a new gun and needs to be shot in alittle more to smooth out any rough edges in the chamber

precision_shooter · February 27, 2014, 09:46 PM

Are you loading these rounds by dropping them in the chamber, then closing the bolt, or are you feeding from the magazine?

If feeding from the magazine, I can almost guarantee the scratches are from the feed ramps.

skizzums · February 27, 2014, 10:59 PM

i know the scratches are from the feed ramps, i just had the same headache with my cheapo AR, did some filing and polishing and its all better now, but that shouldnt have anything to do with round getting stuck, usually if they get stuck its because case wasnt trimmed properly and the brass is getting squeezed into the lands or it not seated deep enough

try cycling factory rounds and check for the scratches, also measure the diameter of the bullet and make sure you dont have a bad batch that are oversized, but most likely you can just seat deeper

ncrypt · March 1, 2014, 08:43 AM

I had the exact same issue. The bolt would stop just short of battery on my AR10. Pain in the but disassembling them to reload.

Problem was the die needed readjusted. I personally screwed it down to the holder, then a little further. This ensured it reached the bottom. I also cycle it twice to be certain and made sure I had adequate lubrication (very important).

I also bought a Lyman headspace gauge to check every batch. This way you know it will fit in your chamber without having to chamber a live round. I'm not a fan of that with a free floating firing pin like I have.

tango1niner · March 1, 2014, 07:16 PM

I was taught many moons ago that when reloading for a semi-auto a small base die, set up properly is the way to go.

USMC 77-81 · March 1, 2014, 08:50 PM

Agree with ncrpt regarding chambering a live round. My procedure:
1) Size and deprime.
2) Plunk test. If cases fail plunk test, find the cause and correct.
3) When cases plunk, release bolt under full spring force. This is to test for ease of extraction.
4) Trim all cases to consistent length.
5) Clean case mouths inside and outside.
6) Assemble dummy round to assess proper/desired COL.
7) Assure final dummy round fits magazine, adjust as needed.
When all of the above criteria are satisfied, prime, charge, seat bullet, shoot (weather and any other factors taken into consideration) and assess accuracy and overall performance.
I am certainly open to critique as continuous improvement is the goal.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · March 2, 2014, 12:23 AM

FWIW: Buy a Small Base resizing die would be my suggestion. If shooting someone else's first fires. Anneal before your first resizing. Then trim to Minumin spec's. If this brass is new fired brass from this rifle. Then annealing isn't necessary for the time being. IMO: For your information I haven't seen a AR rifle platform that hasn't been finicky about its ammo to date.

February 26, 2014, 12:47 PM	#26
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Boostedtt91, Three things. 1.) To set up any sizing die properly, you turn it to touch the shell holder, then with a lubricated case pressed all the way up into the die, you look at it sideways and with a flashlight behind it to see if a fine crack of light appears between the die and the shell holder. If it does (and it usually does due to the press stretching under the sizing force) then the die needs to be turned in further until that disappears. This Lee help video demonstrates the process. The only difference, other than their die brand's different lock nut system, is that different presses stretch different amounts, so how much extra you have to turn the press in varies a bit. 1/8 turn to as much as half a turn is needed in some instances. Use the light crack to judge. Obviously, if the sizing force from driving the case into the die stretches the press, having the die screwed in to stretch it the same amount isn't adding any load that it doesn't see anyway. 2.) Once you have that cleared up step 1.) (or even before if you are just curious about what difference clearing up step 1. makes) measure what's happening. Drop a fresh round into your case gauge. Use a caliper to measure from the gauge metal on the bullet side to the head of the case on the other side. Drop in one of your sized cases and do the same thing. Did you get a bigger measurement off your case? If so, you are not really returning the case to size. An alternative method of getting a measurement to compare is shown below. 3.) Cases that come out of a semi-auto are sometimes stretched extra by extraction. Its a timing issue. When this occurs, a standard sizing die may not be able to return it adequately to shape because brass springs back a little when you form it. If that turns out to be the case for you, you will want to buy a small base FL sizing die. You can buy them separately. It may have to be a different brand, but that really doesn't matter. But before you go there, try Mr. Guffey's trick: Deprime a case. Remove the decapping pin from your sizing die. Slip an automotive feeler gauge into the shell holder just under the case head, so the gauge acts as a shim that raises the case. Try a a gauge the same thickness as the measurement difference you get between your case and a new one. You should be able to go as thick as 0.005" in most shell holders. If that fixes the problem, you can either get a small base die or rub the top deck of the shell holder on sandpaper against a flat surface, like a plate glass scrap, until you can adjust your existing die down far enough to size the brass enough. The shell holder from Lee is only about $4, IIRC, so you can mess several up for the cost of a die. Just be aware that different brands of shell holders use different number systems, so you want to be sure you get the right one. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 26, 2014, 06:06 PM	#33
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Cw308, Some presses, like the Lee, have stops to prevent camover (where the handle runs past raising the ram and it starts back down again). That's why the crack of light is the universal way to check. Boostedtt91, Sounds like we got it, then. And yes, btw, running a case back into a die will usually take some of the springback out. I've used that method intentionally to shorten cases an extra couple of thousandths. You just run the case up, count to 5 to let it relax, withdraw it and turn the case 180° in the shell holder and do it again. Sometime a third time will help a little further. If the scrapes on the bullet are from chambering, cover a bullet with Magic marker. Put the round in the magazine and use a sharpie to mark the extractor groove of cartridge at 12:00. After you feed and eject, that extractor groove mark will tell you where this is happening around the chamber and a flashlight and maybe a dental mirror should reveal where the ink scraped off. A couple of things can cause this. One is just sharp chamber edges that a little crocus cloth can take the edge off of or that will gradually burnish down with use. However, seating the bullet out longer than it's designed for can do that too. SAAMI maximum COL (2.800") and military maximum COL (2.810") are only maximums. Some bullets with shorter ogives, like the Hornady FMJ, are designed to be seated a bit shorter. Check with the bullet maker for a recommended COL for their bullet. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 27, 2014, 09:46 PM	#35
precision_shooter Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 2,475	Are you loading these rounds by dropping them in the chamber, then closing the bolt, or are you feeding from the magazine? If feeding from the magazine, I can almost guarantee the scratches are from the feed ramps. __________________ "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, 1776

February 27, 2014, 10:59 PM	#36
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	i know the scratches are from the feed ramps, i just had the same headache with my cheapo AR, did some filing and polishing and its all better now, but that shouldnt have anything to do with round getting stuck, usually if they get stuck its because case wasnt trimmed properly and the brass is getting squeezed into the lands or it not seated deep enough try cycling factory rounds and check for the scratches, also measure the diameter of the bullet and make sure you dont have a bad batch that are oversized, but most likely you can just seat deeper __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

March 1, 2014, 08:43 AM	#37
ncrypt Member Join Date: December 3, 2013 Posts: 72	I had the exact same issue. The bolt would stop just short of battery on my AR10. Pain in the but disassembling them to reload. Problem was the die needed readjusted. I personally screwed it down to the holder, then a little further. This ensured it reached the bottom. I also cycle it twice to be certain and made sure I had adequate lubrication (very important). I also bought a Lyman headspace gauge to check every batch. This way you know it will fit in your chamber without having to chamber a live round. I'm not a fan of that with a free floating firing pin like I have. Last edited by ncrypt; March 2, 2014 at 07:27 AM.

February 26, 2014, 12:52 PM	#28
boostedtt91 Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2011 Location: Danville, Pa Posts: 520	I have a batch of 10 that was all reloaded at the same time. All but 4 of them will chamber. I just pulled two of the bullets of cases that won't chamber and they didn't chamber without the bullet in my ar10 or my remington 700. I ran them through the sizer once more without changing anything and now they will?? Is it possible that some cases might need to be ran through the sizer a few times or should it size correct the first time?

February 26, 2014, 01:08 PM	#29
boostedtt91 Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2011 Location: Danville, Pa Posts: 520	Unclenick, I just checked what you listed with the light and yes there was light between the die and shell holder. I adjusted it down alittle more to where there is no more light. Im going to size a few now after adjusting it and see if they chamber ok. Thanks for the info about that, i never heard of checking that before

February 26, 2014, 01:29 PM	#30
boostedtt91 Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2011 Location: Danville, Pa Posts: 520	It looks like that might of been the issue with my die not being down far enough. I just loaded some after adjusting my die and they all are chambering and ejecting perfectly. I am still getting some scrapes on the bullet though, i dont know if thats normal or not

February 26, 2014, 04:10 PM	#31
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	You should always (cam over) slightly to get the slack out of the die & press threads, when you screw the die down till it hits the shell holder, screw the die down alittle till you feel a slight resistance on the press arm.The scratches most likely are comming from the round moving sideways when ejecting, normal. Looks Like you solved the problem. Be Safe Chris

February 26, 2014, 05:27 PM	#32
boostedtt91 Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2011 Location: Danville, Pa Posts: 520	I always do have it cam'd over some but it obviously wasn't enough in this case. I'm going to load up some more tomorrow and see if everything goes smooth still and hopefully that was all it was. Greatly appreciate everyone's advice and help!!

February 27, 2014, 08:29 PM	#34
boostedtt91 Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2011 Location: Danville, Pa Posts: 520	unclenick, I greatly appriciate all your advice, it has been very helpful!! I have these bullets loaded to 2.750" as they are 174G BTFMJ's that i don't know the manufactor of them, i just went with the length of a bullet that was close to that shape and weight in my manuals. I will give that a try with the marker as well, i have been meaning to do that. Ill give that a try tomorrow and see what happens. The scratches are vertical usually from the tip to base of the bullet and not really in any particular spot each time. Maybe cause its a new gun and needs to be shot in alittle more to smooth out any rough edges in the chamber

March 1, 2014, 07:16 PM	#38
tango1niner Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: NY Posts: 317	I was taught many moons ago that when reloading for a semi-auto a small base die, set up properly is the way to go.

March 1, 2014, 08:50 PM	#39
USMC 77-81 Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2012 Location: Northern Idaho Posts: 254	Agree with ncrpt regarding chambering a live round. My procedure: 1) Size and deprime. 2) Plunk test. If cases fail plunk test, find the cause and correct. 3) When cases plunk, release bolt under full spring force. This is to test for ease of extraction. 4) Trim all cases to consistent length. 5) Clean case mouths inside and outside. 6) Assemble dummy round to assess proper/desired COL. 7) Assure final dummy round fits magazine, adjust as needed. When all of the above criteria are satisfied, prime, charge, seat bullet, shoot (weather and any other factors taken into consideration) and assess accuracy and overall performance. I am certainly open to critique as continuous improvement is the goal.

March 2, 2014, 12:23 AM	#40
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	FWIW: Buy a Small Base resizing die would be my suggestion. If shooting someone else's first fires. Anneal before your first resizing. Then trim to Minumin spec's. If this brass is new fired brass from this rifle. Then annealing isn't necessary for the time being. IMO: For your information I haven't seen a AR rifle platform that hasn't been finicky about its ammo to date.