Powder measure

bugaiho · February 22, 2008, 08:01 PM

Hello All!

Why is it that powder measure companies say that their smokeless powder measure is not for black powder?

I have a lee volumetric thrower...I have used it with pyrodex to load my 1860 colt army.

I cant see any problem. I weigh the charge it throws and it looks pretty good.

my father in law just gave me his 1851 navy. so now I am revisiting this to see if anyone can shed some light on this.
Thanks
Mike

Hawg · February 22, 2008, 08:13 PM

Black powder should be measured by volume not weight. Especially Pyrodex as it weighs much less than bp.

long rider · February 22, 2008, 08:15 PM

GEE i wish my father in law would give me a 1851 navy,
istead of hell.

.

bugaiho · February 22, 2008, 08:44 PM

what volume do you put in the 1851 .36 and the 1860 .44 ? If you are using pyrodex that is?

I have seen loading data,,,they use the terms "grains"..

I am confused.

mykeal · February 22, 2008, 09:00 PM

Grains is a unit of weight, and it is used that way in measuring smokeless powder, so it's use as a volume measure in black powder shooting can be confusing.

It works like this: for real black powder the volume of a certain weight of powder in grains is said to have the same number of grains of volume. For example, 35 grains by weight of black powder takes up a certain volume; that volume is said to be 35 grains by volume.

The use of volume for black powder has to do with the ease of volume measurement as compared with weight measurement when in the field.

However, this relationship between weight and volume measurement only applies to real black powder. Synthetic or substitute black powders have different densities than real black powder, so 35 grains by volume of Pyrodex does not weigh 35 grains, it weighs less. However, 35 grains by volume of Pyrodex gives about the same pressure wave as 35 grains by volume of real black powder; it just weighs less.

bugaiho · February 22, 2008, 10:49 PM

Thanks for the description! That does help.

now...practical usage...

what is the best way to get the right volume/weight of pyrodex?

i have an old lyman reloading manual, but it states grains just like you would be working up a load for some modern smokeless round. It talks about volume too..

If i get this right,,,one could be loading too much powder if they were to use a scale instead of some volumetric device?

Hawg · February 22, 2008, 10:49 PM

Get a bp powder measure.

scrat · February 23, 2008, 12:24 AM

+1

get a black powder measure. its not by weight its by volume.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...=cat20819&rid=

bugaiho · February 23, 2008, 08:06 AM

Will this one work too? a little cheaper...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Traditions-Powde...QQcmdZViewItem

Can I make one out of a large cartridge?

Hawg · February 23, 2008, 09:17 AM

Either one will work, even a cartridge but you need to know how much powder your cartridge measure holds so you'd be better off with a regular measure. Personally I prefer one with a sliding top that levels the charge and also doubles as a funnel. I have two of these but don't have pics and can't remember where I got them.

scrat · February 23, 2008, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Will this one work too? a little cheaper...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Traditions-Powde...QQcmdZViewItem

Can I make one out of a large cartridge

i have one of those. it works very good. You just have to get one. a powder measure is one of those things you gotta have more than just one. i have 3 of them. The more you get in to bp the more stuff you will want to have and will purchase anyway.

45Marlin carbine · February 23, 2008, 09:52 AM

in reference to Hawg Haggen's post Dixie Gun Works catalog has a listing of the amount of BP different cartridge cases will contain. handy guide to use these as powder measures. myself I can add that a 7.62X39 case (AK or SKS case) holds 32 grs. 3F which I use as a hot load for my ROA and '58 Rem. this powder charge with a felt atop then a Lee slug leaves little room for more powder but a consistent ramming depth/pressure is obtained.

bugaiho · February 23, 2008, 11:51 AM

Just found this on Hodgdon's site,,,

In response to a growing number of inquiries from the reloading public, Hodgdon Powder Company, Inc. has undertaken the evaluation of Triple Seven® and Pyrodex® for use in volumetric powder measures designed for use with smokeless powder.

Testing was performed by:

Canadian Explosives Research Laboratory
Global Environmental Solutions
Australia Department of Defense, Defense Science and Technology Organization
ADI (Australia Defense Industries)

Characteristics of ignition tested:

Friction
Electrostatic Discharge
Impact
Ignition Temperature

Test results for Triple Seven and Pyrodex were then compared to Clays® smokeless powder.

Evaluation of the test results reveals that there is no increase in risk of ignition from the use of Pyrodex and Triple Seven when compared to smokeless powders. Further, burn tests indicate that there is no issue with critical column height in the factory supplied powder hoppers with Pyrodex, Triple Seven or our smokeless products. These findings would be consistent with the United States Department of Transportation classification of Pyrodex and Triple Seven as flammable solids rather than as explosives, allowing them to be transported in the same manner as smokeless powder.

Hodgdon Powder Company will begin changing our warnings as soon as possible to reflect the results of our testing. We will now state that Pyrodex and Triple Seven may be used in any volumetric powder measure approved by the manufacturer for this purpose.

We have provided this information to the powder measure makers and have asked that they consider changing their warnings in a similar manner. If there is any doubt about the suitability of a specific measure, the user should contact the powder measure manufacturer.

If you should have any questions about the use of Triple Seven or Pyrodex in powder measures, please contact our Customer Service staff. 913-362-9455 or [email protected].

* Warning - Always use care when handling any gunpowder. Follow manufacturers instructions for proper operation of your powder measure. Read and understand warnings on powder label.

mykeal · February 23, 2008, 03:35 PM

Hawg Haggen said:

Quote:

Personally I prefer one with a sliding top that levels the charge and also doubles as a funnel. I have two of these but don't have pics and can't remember where I got them.

I think this is what you have in mind (same one I use):
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...sure&noImage=0
There is also this one:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...sure&noImage=0

Hawg · February 23, 2008, 03:56 PM

No, mine are not hinged. The top slides open. It also has storage for caps in the bottom. I've had them for quite a few years and can't remember where I got them.

bugaiho · February 23, 2008, 04:06 PM

Does anyone besides me own a Lee "Perfect Powder measure"?

The instruction manual lists VMD for each of their test powders,,(they test all)..

This powder measure has graduations for VOLUME (cc) so it is throwing a charge based on a dialed up volume.

According to Hodgdon, they are now saying smokeless powder throwers are okay to dispense pyrodex.

I would believe the simplest way to load up would be to fill a bunch of 30.06 cases with the predetermined amount...leave it in an ammo can on a reloader block...when ready to use, just dump in each case into each cylinder, pack the ball, cap it and fire!
(as you can see, I am trying to get out of buying a flask or measure, I dont want to spend another dime, just trying to use up what I've got, not going to be on this planet much longer).

Hawg · February 23, 2008, 05:16 PM

30-06 holds 75 grs. level full so that would work. That's cool about the Lee mesure.

Hawg · February 23, 2008, 05:21 PM

Quote:

I think this is what you have in mind (same one I use):
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...sure&noImage=0
There is also this one:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...sure&noImage=0

Here's the ones I use.

bugaiho · February 23, 2008, 06:47 PM

Hawg...from looking at all the variants, there doesn't seem to be a real 'must be exactly' right on amount ...considering the markings on those powder measures.
what I mean is that it looks like it is tough to set exactly 33 grs for example

Kind of like horseshoes and hand grenades? just have to get close

Hawg · February 23, 2008, 06:52 PM

Yeah, close is good enough for bp. It would be hard to get 33 grs. exactly with a bp measure as most are ten grs. between marks. The one in the pic is set about 35 but that's just an approximate as it's "about" halfway between 30 and 40. That's my regular .44 pistol charge.

mykeal · February 23, 2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

No, mine are not hinged. The top slides open. It also has storage for caps in the bottom.

I know the description says hinged, but there's no 'hinge' on it, in the sense of a door hinge. The funnel is pinned to the barrel and swivels/slides out of/into the way; the pin is the hinge.

It does not have a cap storage compartment, however.

Hawg · February 23, 2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

I know the description says hinged, but there's no 'hinge' on it,

I used the wrong terminology but you can see from the pics how mine works. Slide the funnel over and fill. Slide it back and it levels the charge and is ready for loading. The funnel makes for easy loading of a bp revolver too.

45Marlin carbine · February 23, 2008, 07:48 PM

powder charge in brass will be dependent on the wall thickness of the case, Lake City cases hold 72gr. 3F which is my load for my .50 cap-lock hunting. plinkin/camp out load I use the 7.62R case which is 65 gr. 3F. saves a little powder.

Raider2000 · February 23, 2008, 08:43 PM

.45ACP case will load 28gr. FFFG charge which is what I use in a pinch when I forget my measure at home "close enough to 30gr. to get the .457 Ball down range to the spot."

bugaiho · February 23, 2008, 10:42 PM

Raider,,,thanks, that is exactly what I need! I have plenty of 45acp cases...about 10,000!

So, that will be fine for the 44..what about the 36 cal 1851? maybe a 40sw case?

February 22, 2008, 08:01 PM	#1
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	Powder measure Hello All! Why is it that powder measure companies say that their smokeless powder measure is not for black powder? I have a lee volumetric thrower...I have used it with pyrodex to load my 1860 colt army. I cant see any problem. I weigh the charge it throws and it looks pretty good. my father in law just gave me his 1851 navy. so now I am revisiting this to see if anyone can shed some light on this. Thanks Mike

February 22, 2008, 08:15 PM	#3
long rider Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Posts: 669	GEE i wish my father in law would give me a 1851 navy, istead of hell.. __________________ Sod Buster Tried To Pull On Willson.

February 22, 2008, 08:13 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Black powder should be measured by volume not weight. Especially Pyrodex as it weighs much less than bp.

February 22, 2008, 08:44 PM	#4
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	what volume do you put in the 1851 .36 and the 1860 .44 ? If you are using pyrodex that is? I have seen loading data,,,they use the terms "grains".. I am confused.

February 22, 2008, 09:00 PM	#5
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Grains is a unit of weight, and it is used that way in measuring smokeless powder, so it's use as a volume measure in black powder shooting can be confusing. It works like this: for real black powder the volume of a certain weight of powder in grains is said to have the same number of grains of volume. For example, 35 grains by weight of black powder takes up a certain volume; that volume is said to be 35 grains by volume. The use of volume for black powder has to do with the ease of volume measurement as compared with weight measurement when in the field. However, this relationship between weight and volume measurement only applies to real black powder. Synthetic or substitute black powders have different densities than real black powder, so 35 grains by volume of Pyrodex does not weigh 35 grains, it weighs less. However, 35 grains by volume of Pyrodex gives about the same pressure wave as 35 grains by volume of real black powder; it just weighs less.

February 22, 2008, 10:49 PM	#6
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	Thanks for the description! That does help. now...practical usage... what is the best way to get the right volume/weight of pyrodex? i have an old lyman reloading manual, but it states grains just like you would be working up a load for some modern smokeless round. It talks about volume too.. If i get this right,,,one could be loading too much powder if they were to use a scale instead of some volumetric device?

February 23, 2008, 12:24 AM	#8
scrat Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2008 Posts: 214	+1 get a black powder measure. its not by weight its by volume. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...=cat20819&rid=

February 23, 2008, 08:06 AM	#9
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	Will this one work too? a little cheaper... http://cgi.ebay.com/Traditions-Powde...QQcmdZViewItem Can I make one out of a large cartridge?

February 23, 2008, 09:17 AM	#10
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Either one will work, even a cartridge but you need to know how much powder your cartridge measure holds so you'd be better off with a regular measure. Personally I prefer one with a sliding top that levels the charge and also doubles as a funnel. I have two of these but don't have pics and can't remember where I got them.

February 23, 2008, 09:52 AM	#12
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	in reference to Hawg Haggen's post Dixie Gun Works catalog has a listing of the amount of BP different cartridge cases will contain. handy guide to use these as powder measures. myself I can add that a 7.62X39 case (AK or SKS case) holds 32 grs. 3F which I use as a hot load for my ROA and '58 Rem. this powder charge with a felt atop then a Lee slug leaves little room for more powder but a consistent ramming depth/pressure is obtained.

February 23, 2008, 11:51 AM	#13
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	Just found this on Hodgdon's site,,, In response to a growing number of inquiries from the reloading public, Hodgdon Powder Company, Inc. has undertaken the evaluation of Triple Seven® and Pyrodex® for use in volumetric powder measures designed for use with smokeless powder. Testing was performed by: Canadian Explosives Research Laboratory Global Environmental Solutions Australia Department of Defense, Defense Science and Technology Organization ADI (Australia Defense Industries) Characteristics of ignition tested: Friction Electrostatic Discharge Impact Ignition Temperature Test results for Triple Seven and Pyrodex were then compared to Clays® smokeless powder. Evaluation of the test results reveals that there is no increase in risk of ignition from the use of Pyrodex and Triple Seven when compared to smokeless powders. Further, burn tests indicate that there is no issue with critical column height in the factory supplied powder hoppers with Pyrodex, Triple Seven or our smokeless products. These findings would be consistent with the United States Department of Transportation classification of Pyrodex and Triple Seven as flammable solids rather than as explosives, allowing them to be transported in the same manner as smokeless powder. Hodgdon Powder Company will begin changing our warnings as soon as possible to reflect the results of our testing. We will now state that Pyrodex and Triple Seven may be used in any volumetric powder measure approved by the manufacturer for this purpose. We have provided this information to the powder measure makers and have asked that they consider changing their warnings in a similar manner. If there is any doubt about the suitability of a specific measure, the user should contact the powder measure manufacturer. If you should have any questions about the use of Triple Seven or Pyrodex in powder measures, please contact our Customer Service staff. 913-362-9455 or [email protected]. * Warning - Always use care when handling any gunpowder. Follow manufacturers instructions for proper operation of your powder measure. Read and understand warnings on powder label.

February 23, 2008, 03:56 PM	#15
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	No, mine are not hinged. The top slides open. It also has storage for caps in the bottom. I've had them for quite a few years and can't remember where I got them.

February 23, 2008, 04:06 PM	#16
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	Does anyone besides me own a Lee "Perfect Powder measure"? The instruction manual lists VMD for each of their test powders,,(they test all).. This powder measure has graduations for VOLUME (cc) so it is throwing a charge based on a dialed up volume. According to Hodgdon, they are now saying smokeless powder throwers are okay to dispense pyrodex. I would believe the simplest way to load up would be to fill a bunch of 30.06 cases with the predetermined amount...leave it in an ammo can on a reloader block...when ready to use, just dump in each case into each cylinder, pack the ball, cap it and fire! (as you can see, I am trying to get out of buying a flask or measure, I dont want to spend another dime, just trying to use up what I've got, not going to be on this planet much longer).

February 23, 2008, 05:16 PM	#17
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	30-06 holds 75 grs. level full so that would work. That's cool about the Lee mesure.

February 23, 2008, 06:47 PM	#19
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	Hawg...from looking at all the variants, there doesn't seem to be a real 'must be exactly' right on amount ...considering the markings on those powder measures. what I mean is that it looks like it is tough to set exactly 33 grs for example Kind of like horseshoes and hand grenades? just have to get close

February 23, 2008, 06:52 PM	#20
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Yeah, close is good enough for bp. It would be hard to get 33 grs. exactly with a bp measure as most are ten grs. between marks. The one in the pic is set about 35 but that's just an approximate as it's "about" halfway between 30 and 40. That's my regular .44 pistol charge.

February 23, 2008, 07:48 PM	#23
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	powder charge in brass will be dependent on the wall thickness of the case, Lake City cases hold 72gr. 3F which is my load for my .50 cap-lock hunting. plinkin/camp out load I use the 7.62R case which is 65 gr. 3F. saves a little powder.

February 23, 2008, 08:43 PM	#24
Raider2000 Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 719	.45ACP case will load 28gr. FFFG charge which is what I use in a pinch when I forget my measure at home "close enough to 30gr. to get the .457 Ball down range to the spot."

February 23, 2008, 10:42 PM	#25
bugaiho Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: connecticut Posts: 41	Raider,,,thanks, that is exactly what I need! I have plenty of 45acp cases...about 10,000! So, that will be fine for the 44..what about the 36 cal 1851? maybe a 40sw case?