Where do you draw the line in sportsmanship?

[Betty]

I enjoy hunting, mainly smaller game like rabbits, tree rats, groundhog and turkey. I did deer once or twice, but I really don't like deer meat. Maybe I've just had bad recipes.

When I hunt, I do basic stalk or sit-and-wait-in-the-wee-hours-of-the-morning maneuvers until my prey comes along.

So when I sift through a Cabela's or similar catalog, it bothers me to see some rather unusual gadgets to get the game, like:

- feed bags to put up for deer, so they are attracted to that spot and you know where to find them

- deer scent (For attracting deer or not smelling humand and scaring them away, I'm not sure which)

- those new sonar gadgets that detect fish underwater so you go to that spot

- Decoys. Decoys are borderline with me.

- Animals calls are borderline, too.

and so on.

To me, these gadgets seem to knock the sportsmanship out of hunting. It's not the high-tech uber-rifle with the state-of-the-art scope that can pop a bunny's tail off at a thousand yards - even with the uber-rifle, you still have to find prey that is quick with good eyesight. It's the fact that these gadgets manipulate the prey to such an extent that it takes the "hunting" and "sportsmanship" out of hunting an animal that really isn't that smart.

Where's the "hunting" if you put out a feed bag and wala! There's a deer, right up in the perfect spot with the perfect backstop that you planned. In fact, you had your video camera on a tripod right there so you could capture the moment.

What do you think?

[loach]

I agree with many of your points, but not all of them.

I think covering scents aren't necessarily a bad thing. Really, they're like camoflage for the nose. If you wear camo, there's little difference. Scent lures on the otherhand are borderline, in my opinion. I don't use them, but I'm not necessarily against them. I don't see them as being much different than using deer pellets/scat or other scent lures you could find natually, they're just easier (and more pleasant) to use.

Baiting is just plain wrong, IMHO. Providing food in the form of native plant plots or other natural browse is simply good habitat management, when done right, but placing automatic feeders or using bait piles just takes the sport out of it.

Fish finders and underwater cameras seem a little like cheating to me, but I really don't fish that much, so I haven't spent much time thinking about it.

Decoys and animal calls don't really bug me if they're made of natural materials (wood, hide, etc), but like you, this is a borderline area. For example, it's pretty hard to effectively duck hint without decoys, but deer decoys strike me as particularly weird.

This is a good topic. I'll have to give it some more thought.

[BenW]

This is something I've given a lot of thought to as well. It's one of those "where do you draw the line?" kinds of things, and I suppose everyone has a different line.

The gadget idea first started to bother me when I saw infrared gamefinders in the Cabelas catalog. I can agree with the idea if say, you've lost your wounded deer in thick brush, because I think conservation of our game resources is really important. But what happens when they start making IR gamefinders so you can spot that bedded down buck that's too well hidden for your old fahioned eyes?

What about if they come out with heatseeker bullets? Would you use one? Then again, what would a hunter from the 1700's think of us using cartridge rifles with scopes instead of a flintlock? Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

Like you Runt, I like to still or stand hunt my game. I personally would never use video cameras to remotely do my "scouting" for me. I think it's cheating for me not to do the legwork. I wouldn't use a recording to call in game like coyotes. Again, it wouldn't feel right, though I have no problem calling in a duck with a duck call. Somebody from 200 years (or whenever it was before duck calls were invented ) ago might think I'm cheating though, if I use a call instead of making the noise with only my own vocal cords.

So again, we all draw our own lines on what's acceptable. This should be an interesting thread.

[Edward429451]

Situational ethics and personal preference, IMO.

In my mind, feed bags go too far, attractant scents go too far, baiting is out of the question, as well as deer decoys.

Calling is to me not unsportsmanlike, or duck decoys. Its hard enough to hunt ducks without being so sportsmanlike that you go away empty handed. With decoys in the water calling them may or may not make them swerve your way.

I've got a squealing rabbit call for coyotes and have used it to call in a couple coyotes but didnt take the shots because what am I gonna do with a dead coyote? Not food for me and no interest in the hides. Made me feel good to have called them in though.

OTOH, I've always thought that those who small game with a shotgun are cheating! Yes, thats right, cheating.

Fish finders are kind of a reverse decoy and are ok in my book. Just cause you can find them dont mean you'll catch them.

Ethics can change with the situation though. If me or mine is hungry, all bets are off!

[444]

We had a good thread on this a couple months ago. Where the line is drawn for you is an interesting point. For me, it depends on the circumstances.
Bait; If you are hunting an animal in areas where they feed, or where they water, you are using bait. Just because you didn't put it there, is a minor point for me. If you find a big oak tree with plenty of acorns and hunt under it, you are using bait in my opinion. If you are hunting in the desert and find the only water for miles around and stake it out, you are hunting over bait IMO. I have never put out bait for the purpose of hunting over it. But I have put out bait/food, and a saltlick in my parents yard so that every morning they can be greated by deer and turkey standing in their yard. And yes, I do hunt in that area. I don't sit at the kitchen table and shoot a deer out the window, but when I am in the woods and a deer walks by, how do I know he is not going for the salt lick I put out in my parents yard ?
Calls. This to me is a very fun activity. I call coyotes. If you wanted to hunt coyotes by just walking out in the desert and sitting down, you would be there a long time. Coyotes cover a lot of territory and having one come to where you are requires some kind of attractant. Calling is an art and a skill. Doing it effectively enough to fool an animal as wary as a coyote is a great accomplishment. Even if you are using an electronic call, that doesn't mean that you have a sure thing situation. Camo, scent etc all come into play. Just because you are using a bit of technology doesn't mean that you have suddenly taken all the sport out of it.
Fish Finders. I have used them and never really found them to be all that helpful.
One thing to keep in mind is that different hunters and fisherman have different sets of circumstances. For example; I grew up in Ohio. Getting a deer tag involved nothing more than going to the store and buying one. It entitled you to hunt throughout the deer season including archery, muzzleloader, and gun season. You could hunt anywhere in the state. And, the actual hunting for me involved walking out of my parents house and into the woods. Today I live in Nevada. Like most Western states we have a lottery system for getting a big game tag. You specify exactly when and where you want to hunt. This year I was drawn for Area 10, Rifle Season, Late Hunt. That is all I can hunt, I can only hunt that area, with a rifle, at that time. And I was lucky to get that. Last year I wasn't drawn at all. This year I appled for something like 10 big game tags and this is the only one I got. This hunt is going to require me to take vacation time for work, drive most of one day, set up camp (and have the gear for cold weather camping). And then I will stay there until I get a deer or run out of vacation time. The point is that I will have a lot invested in the hunt. I have been waiting two years for this hunt. And, it may be another two-three years before I get drawn again. I may not even see any deer if the weather doesn't cooperate. I will more than likely be camping by myself for a week or two in an extremely remote area of the country. This tends to blur sportsmanship a little for me. The first day I will be very selective. If, on the last day, I look out my tent door and a deer is sniffing the zipper, it may get shot. In Ohio, I have seen over twenty deer a day without moving one inch from my stand. In Nevada I have busted my a** for 12 days, camping by myself (without a bath) before I saw a buck. On that 12th day, I would have gladly hunted over bait, but it turned out that I didn't need it. If I had been working at a job where I couldn't be gone for that kind of time, the incentive would have been greater.
Same goes for fishing. If I was an avid fisherman again, I would have to drive close to 100 miles each way to the nearest lake. How long would I enjoy doing that if I wasn't catching fish ? Would I take great satisfaction in knowing I was skunked but didn't use any modern gadgets ? NO. After the first couple times, I would be scouring Cabellas for gimmick that might mean success.

[Fred Hansen]

Where do you draw the line in sportsmanship?

If I don't like it, I don't do it. I leave everyone else the hell alone unless they break the law. Doesn't apply to just sportsmanship either.

[444]

Then of course we open up another can of worms. Let's say you consider a fishfinder unsportsmanlike. You can't have an electronic gadget telling you where the fish are.
But............. what if you are fishing and not catching a thing and you see a guy with a limit of big bass. He says, yeah, we are catching them right off the rocky points using a silver Wiggle Wart running about three feet deep. Is that more sporting ? A fishfinder wouldn't have told you that. What about using natural vs. artifical bait ? What about if we see a guy driving out with a nice mulie buck and say, Man I have been walking my butt off up and down those mountains and haven't seen a thing. He says, that is because they are down in the sage brush in the valleys. A camera or an infafed camera wouldn't have told you that unless you had it in the right place.
How about if we are coyote hunting and consider using calls and scents unsportsmanlike, but............. we just happen to know where a cow died. Surely the coyotes will be feeding on it. No wait, that would be hunting over bait.
Then there is the question I brought up in the last thread on this subject. Let's say that you find an area with a lot of sign. You hunt there and are successful. Does it become suddenly unsportsmanlike because you didn't realize that there was a feeder nearby ? If not, then what if you did know there was a feeder nearby ? Would have it been more sporting to hunt in an area without sign or activity because we can't hunt near a feeder ?

[Art Eatman]

Speaking only of a lot of the hunting in Texas: When you set up some sort of deer feeder, it's generally true that only the does and the little bucks come out and eat. Generally, Ol' Bucky hangs out in the brush nearby, trying to figure out which sweet young thing he's gonna try and put the make on.

Most of the does which are shot are killed in order to hold the herd numbers down to the carrying capacity of the land--as well as for eating, of course. It is common on some ranches that you can't shoot a buck until after you've killed a doe. Many ranchers won't allow setting up a stand within sight of a feeder, considering it not fair chase. Stands get set up near a known deer trail, but at some distance from a feeder.

Yeah, sure, some blinds are set up near feeders. I don't particularly call it "hunting", but it gets deer out of the pasture, which in much of central Texas is a Good Thing. Helps the rancher pay his ever-increasing school taxes, as well.

This will vary with the terrain, of course. In some areas, the populations are very sparse, on the order of three deer per section. Ya wanna sit for a week? How many days do you have for hunting? Can you walk 12 to 15 miles of rough country every day for a week? Even in these areas it can be "Bait, and pray." I can tell you that a 9-pound rifle on a 15-mile stroll will come to weigh about 40 pounds. And that's by mile 10.

SFAIK, the scent lures and masks, the camo and other stuff is more necessary for bow hunters. Pretty much, they have a 20yard range limit. It takes little breeze to ruin a day.

If you don't use a call for coyotes, you probably will hear ten a night, and see one a month. Besides, calling is just plain fun! It's another of those package deals, of having friends along with you, BSing and joking, and you also never know what's gonna show up. Owls land on guys' heads; lions reach a paw in a pickup's split window, bears have been known to fall over a guy's sittin' spot...The only difference between a tape player and a mouth-blow call is the volume; the first can get Wiley's attention at a greater distance. Learning how to make a mouth-blown call sound attractive to Wiley takes a bit of doing, as well.

Complex subject. No real simple answers.

, Art

[Betty]

One thing I've always contemplated.... is it sportsmanlike if you bag a deer/duck/squirrel/turkey by simply opening the back door and lining up your rifle sights?

And then there's camping...
Why do some people go camping and bring an entire house on wheels with them?

[stinger]

If I don't like it, I don't do it. I leave everyone else the hell alone unless they break the law. Doesn't apply to just sportsmanship either.

Beautifully said. Do you mind if I use that sometime?


Someone mentioned the thread a while back where we covered this one. I don't see how any of these things are unsportsmanlike or unethical. Especially considering that you are going to be using a 150-200 grain HPBT fired from a 35 power scope at 200 yards. Where is the sport in that? Like I said in the other post, if you want to be sporting, pick up a stick or rock and "Let's get it on."

Otherwise, I don't see how any of these other things is more unsporting than the next. Dynamite for fishing, well, you will ruin everybody else's day, and it's dangerous, but it sure is effective. (I don't do this I just heard about it )

All of these things are what seperates us from the rest of the animals. Sure, a coyote/cougar/bear/whatever has time to walk his domain and check out the prospective quarry. I don't, I have a job. That shouldn't exclude me, or anybody else, from enjoying their hunting experience. It is is definitely more fun getting to bring something besides your rifle back.

BTW, at the prices most places charge to hunt on their land, you darn well better have every advantage possible.

Now having said that, there are very few, if any, of the above mentioned things that I have every used. That is just the way I fell about it. Boy was I rambling.


Stinger

[Danny45]

Hi guys, great topic.

I happen to work at Academy Sports and Outdoors now, and have seen a bunch of the stuff mentioned on this thread. Hell, we even carry a small electronic call that sounds like a game feeder so you can draw deer off the neighbor's property!!!! Something new every day.

Anyway, I just wanted to tell you about those infra-red game finder thingy's. They suck! I don't know how they work outside, but inside, they ain't worth the money they cost. I once pointed one at a co-worker that was 5 feet away, and weighs 300 lbs. Stupid thing never lit up. Had to move it back and forth (horizontally) several times for it to finally read him. So, unless someone has actually used these outdoors, in the woods, I'd say regardless how you feel about them, don't waste the money on 'em.

Oh, PS: Please don't stop buying stuff like all this! LOL I need the money so I can go hunting too!!!

[Kirk Keller]

I'm with you. No treestands or artifical lures of any kind. Finding and stalking the animal is the end-all be-all of hunting for me. I prefer to do it as close to one on one as I can, drawing the line and throwing rocks and sticks to bring down the prey. No tree stands or hunting blinds for me, just what God created, the wilderness, the critter and me with my rifle.

...just what God created, the wilderness, the critter and me with my rifle.

Just what make and model rifle does God turn out these days?

If I don't like it, I don't do it. I leave everyone else the hell alone unless they break the law. Doesn't apply to just sportsmanship either.

Absolutely.

[griz]

Good topic. When I put thought into this I come to the realization that it’s largely personal ethics. Anything beyond me trying to sneak up on a critter with a rock in my hand becomes me trying to get an edge on the game, and that’s what hunting is all about. The human race has been using its mind as the ultimate hunting weapon since we became humans.

Mostly I hunt deer and "sporting" to me is not firing until you are sure that your shot will be a clean and humane one. Because Murphy’s law affects hunters too, you also have to make the best effort possible to find something after the shot. Those are the only rules that I apply to others as well as me.

So other than that I go by JMBG29’s motto of do only what you think is right and let others decide what’s right for them. With that in mind I don’t hunt with dogs, and don’t use shotguns for stationary things, except maybe turkeys. If you want to I will still wish you well.

[TaxPhd]

Art got to most of my points first.

On baiting . . .

Baiting migratory birds is illegal on a Federal level, and in every state.

Baiting deer is legal only in a few states, mostly in the South, IIRC. Most Southern states have an overpopulation of deer, with some states having very large limits (a deer a day in Alabama, etc.). Hunters become the primary tool used to control an exploding population. The population is growing even in states that allow baiting. Harvesting a deer that has come to a feeder is more like shooting than hunting, but harvesting that deer can be very important to maintaining the health of the herd.

I have no problem with it.

[Dr.Rob]

Yeah when I first asked about Bear hunting in Colorado some guy said yeah go to dunkin doughnutsand get all their day old stuff and bait an area for a week or so, you'll see bears.

This is now illegal, but the idea of snuffing a bruin while he's munching on a cruller.. well that just didn't seem fair. Kinda like hiding a land mine in a pic-a-nic basket in Jellystone park.

I try to be an ethical hunter. Some of my gear is high tech (polar fleece, stainless rifle) some of my gear is low-tech (wool pants, compass). Clever hominid though I may be, often times bambi and the elusive elk still get the best of me, no matter WHAT I bring to camp.

If hunting was just about killing, I'm not sure I'd keep doing it.

[Art Eatman]

A number of years back, somebody got on me about using a scope on my rifle as being unfair to Bambi. I pointed out that given my trifocals and the age of my eyes, a scope was a bit of a necessity...

But I offered a deal: I would buy a gunstock and mount my telephoto-lensed camera on it. I would have a set of crosshairs affixed inside, so they would show on the print.

I offered a $1,000 bet that this person couldn't bring me a print with the crosshairs in the proper spot to indicate a clean-kill shot, offhand, on a running deer. After some small amount of thought, the bet was turned down.

But, hey! I thought I had offered a fair, sporting proposition!

Art

[ckurts]

Art said much of what I wanted to say only a lot better. I just wanted to add that I seldom hunt trophy bucks- I am perfectly happy to help with game management, shooting does and spikes. I love the taste of venison, hog, and turkey; I get a charge out of bringing home meat from an animal that I've taken and cleaned; and I especially enjoy watching nature from my stand or just sitting out there "decompressing".

[C.R.Sam]

PLUS

1....Do you really need the meat, fish or whatever ? Or are maby thinning or eradicating vermin. Yes, in many places deer are vermin.

2....Or you shooting for the sport/enjoyment/adventure. ?

Art.....way cool with camera challange.

Sam

[Art Eatman]

There wuz a bunch of us used to lease a ranch over north of Uvalde. The trophy hunting was mostly one-upsmanship against each other, just for fun. "Bragging rights".

But, Sam, of course I needed the meat! I'm a natural-food freak! Stilbestrol-free, right?

, Art

[ronin308]

I really like jmbg29's line. That really follows my way of thinking. Personally, I use camo, calls, rattling antlers, scents, and I do my scouting in the summer (if I have time). Oh, and I use my brain sometimes too And Runt, don't even get me starting on people who go "camping".

[Zorro]

This topic is Too hot to touch! Yow!!!

"No matter what I say will be wrong!

And IF! I reverse myself the Drill Seargent will only beat me Harder!"

[DadOfThree]

Hey Art,

But I offered a deal: I would buy a gunstock and mount my telephoto-lensed camera on it. I would have a set of crosshairs affixed inside, so they would show on the print

You ought to think about patenting that idea. A person could "hunt" year round with that and know exactly where each shot would have hit on that particular animal in that particular scenario. I think a lot of people, especially new hunters, target practice on paper with a nice solid bench and then over estimate their abilities in the field. It would be a lot of fun to have a camera with cross hairs mounted to a rifle stock. May not be a real good idea if you are going to use it to practice hunting Grizzlies though

[Art Eatman]

The hardest part of the camera-gun deal would be rigging a decent trigger...

Art

[Betty]

DadofThree, Art,
It's already been done. Zenit makes one!

http://www.kievusa.com/fotosniper.html