Carry TWO Snubs...?

Ludwig · July 24, 2001, 09:24 AM

Since the new titanium lightweight snubs came out, I've been wondering if a good defensive system can be worked out carrying TWO of them, with no other gun. This would be for the civilian with a permit, who has to walk in areas where robbery is a concern. Range would be close enough for snub accuracy and .38 energy. 10-shot potential with no revolver reload. Reliability and retention. My first inclination would be hammerless guns. Does anyone have opinions about this possibility and how it might be set up? Thanks. TLR

BigG · July 24, 2001, 09:39 AM

I think it sounds like a plan. Love my TI S&W 38 Centennial (hammerless).

RazorsEdge · July 24, 2001, 11:19 AM

I think it's feasible. I 've heard of one guy who thought that carrying two SP-101's was trey cool.

You got two hand access, wich is not a bad tactical concept.

The only downside is that if you use IWB carry, you gotta have room for TWO cylinders. Room inside my jeans remains at a premium.

Dave Williams · July 24, 2001, 12:31 PM

I've thought about this also. Strong side, either IWB or OWB, for access when on foot, and another on an ankle, for seated access. I prefer the 442, however. $200 cheaper, 2 ounces heavier, blued, and can shoot 158gr LSWCHP +P. I think this concept has something going for it.

Dave

CWL · July 24, 2001, 04:21 PM

Had a friend in college who carried a pair of .357 snubbies. He said that he liked to be able to have one in each hand. Carried one IWB strong side and one SOB.

It didn't seem all that comfortable though, and he was a bit of a nut, but we did live in Oakland...

LBC · July 24, 2001, 04:29 PM

Ludwig,

Yeah, sounds like a good concept. I was pondering purchasing a slightly used S&W Model 13 3" HB yesterday when I saw another 642 in the case (I've already got one from that shop) and it reminded me of a dream I had some months ago. I heard a 'bump in the night," went downstairs into the kitchen, surprised a burglar coming through the garage door into the kitchen, and I raised not one but TWO 642's in his direction! Yes, 10 rounds, no reload, firing simultaneously. My only thought is it would take a lot of practice. Best Wishes, LBC

Ludwig · July 24, 2001, 04:30 PM

I think the 442 is a great gun. Probably what my snubs would be. Probably three 442s...one to wear out practicing.

One thing I was thinking about this 2-gun setup is one in a jacket pocket, no pocket holster, with your hand on the gun if you are sensing danger. A hammerless will come out fast. Also, some people say you can shoot through your pocket, worst case. NEVER TRIED THIS. DOSEN'T SOUND ENTIRELY SAFE. But I've read articles by people who claim to have done it.

Good idea about the ankle holster for when you are seated. L

Ludwig · July 24, 2001, 04:37 PM

I noticed on one thread that the 642 is more popular than the 442. Is this because it's stainless and therefore more corrosion proof for carry? I see that they are the same weight. The 642 looks good. Thanks. L

Spectre · July 24, 2001, 06:54 PM

I will be picking up a Taurus Ti snubby soon. There may be times when I carry either the .38, and my P-32 (.32 ACP), or when I carry the .38, and the 941 (.22 mag) I should get this week.

Either way, I won't feel undergunned, unless I'm in bear country.

STEVE M · July 24, 2001, 07:52 PM

I'll vote for strong side pocket carry and off side ankle carry. (If you are going to carry IWB, you can carry a bigger gun.)

David Scott · July 24, 2001, 09:38 PM

Bell Charter Oak makes a holster for two snubbies; it's called the New York Reload model.

http://bellcharteroakholsters.com/

July 24, 2001, 11:01 PM

Why limit yourself to 10 rounds? If you carried a pair of Taurus 617's, you would not only have 14 rounds of 357 Magnum, but you could be ultra cool.

LBC · July 25, 2001, 03:59 PM

A lot of good input here. Taurus would be my second choice, or maybe first choice of you want titanium and porting and a lockable, exposed hammer. I tried talking a woman into that kind of Taurus the other day -- she was trading in a lightly used S&W 640 because she didn't like the "long" trigger pull associated with the concealed hammer version. So, she was set on an exposed hammer she could thumb-cock for "practice target shooting," even though she's aware she'll never cock the hammer in a gunfight, and the exposed hammer is more likely to snag

She was also looking at a Kahr P9, which is an awesome little gun, but I don't know much about its track record yet.
Anyway, to answer your question about 642 vs. 442, I chose the stainless because of its superior rust resistance. But don't forget, Vanessa Williams carried a 442 in "Eraser" with Arnold Schwarzaneggar, and it looked pretty nice in her hands...

LBC

FPrice · July 25, 2001, 04:14 PM

Ludwig,

One of the upsides of reading lots of gun magazines is that you eventually read about almost any subject one might mention.

Someone (forgot who) did an article on this many years ago. In short, you can do it, but plan on your garment catching fire, or at least beginning to smoulder. If you ever saw "Tombstone" with Kurt Russell, watch the scene where Curly Bill Brocius (Powers Boothe) shoots Fred White, the town Marshall. It's a CLOSE range shot (maybe 12") and White's shirt catches fire and starts smoking. This is what you should expect.

Ludwig · July 25, 2001, 04:37 PM

That's what I thought. Smoldering coat. They said the bullets were not deflected much....that they tended to hit a little low. Ayoob has written about it, but nowhere at length that I ever saw. Just a few words here and there.

I think a pocket to be used for the last resort would need some design attention - fireproof material, easily pierced, no seams, retains the gun, pointable, and so on. L

ICBentley · July 26, 2001, 12:23 AM

Snubbie - adequate for most self defense encounters.

NY reload - fastest.

Shrouded hammer - only way to go for in pocket firing.

Flaming pockets - test this, shoot through some rags or other material, regardless of speculation and movies, I've not been able to ignite cloth with a smokeless powder load.

Per Marshal and Sanow best and most proven load in 2" .38 is still the old FBI round: 158gr LSWHP +P http://www.evanmarshall.com/towert/s...werfigures.htm

Be safe,

Bentley

"The defence of one's self, justly called the primary law of nature, is not, nor can it be abrogated by any regulation of municipal law."
--- James Wilson, Wilson, Of the Natural Rights of Individuals, in 2 The Works of James Wilson 335 (J.D. Andrews ed. 1896). [from a series of lectures given between 1790 and 1792]

G3 · July 26, 2001, 07:15 AM

Ludwig,

Are you planning on shooting both snub guns at once a la` Last Man Standing?

Don't forget you are responsible for ever round you fire. Drawing two handguns and hip shooting them doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Have you tried this at the range? My guess is one would make a lot of noise and get poor hits/misses.

If you intend to use one snub to be a primary and then going for another snub for a NY reload that is a sound tactic. Why not just use a higher capacity primary?

Griff · July 26, 2001, 06:25 PM

When I carry my Taurus M85 ultralight I carry it in my weak hand front pants pocket backed up by a Bianchi speedstrip in with my car keys. I also carry a Beretta 25 on my ankle for my strong hand. Carrying two guns of the same caliber or similar size makes sense to me.

Ludwig · July 26, 2001, 08:16 PM

True that it's easy to miss with a snub. I've used a 442 for several years and it takes constant practice to stay good with it. I also shoot a 640. Concern about missed shots is an important part of deciding whether to use a snub, and most people just don't have time to practice the required amount.

I carry a Glock 19 IWB, but it seems it could never be at the ready the way a hammerless snub in a windbreaker pocket can be, with your hand already on the gun, no pocket holster, walking down the street in a bad area in broad daylight. But you have to be really good with it. Just my opinion. L

Ludwig · July 26, 2001, 08:51 PM

Forgot to mention that I hope to try Bentley's test shooting through some rags this weekend with the 158 LHP load. L

BMWGS80 · July 27, 2001, 07:13 AM

On occaission I have been known to carry two S&W 65 in a "Miami Classic" shoulder rig. Load Hydra Shok or Golden SAber.
Mods include scabbard suspended from center back toggle for Smith inner city fighter ( 9 3/4 " bowie).

Problem is you have to drop or pocket the first pitsol to grab the second. Unless you plan to use them two handed.

The Bell Charter Oak is a good rig. I have used it for double autos. They are more comptfortable because they are flat.

Cheers,

ts

BigG · July 27, 2001, 09:19 AM

Just drop the empty on the sidewalk, like they do in Hollywood.

RHC · July 28, 2001, 10:46 AM

Well, I can't seem to find it using the search feature, but one of the all time classic TFL posts was by George Hill about his two gun experiment. I have it printed out; it was originally posted 2-25-00 if that helps, but the print out doesn't seem to have the thread title.

Ludwig · July 28, 2001, 02:32 PM

I went to the range today and watched a guy shoot holes in medium cotton, one thickness, then two, pulled up around the 442 Airweight .32 snub, as if it was a jacket pocket. The cloth was tight against the muzzle. Five rounds of 125 Golden Saber +P and five rounds of Win 158 LHP +P. The shots blew 1" to 2" holes, straight through, with black soot marks around the holes. No ignition of the cotton whatsoever. I'M NOT RECOMMENDING THIS. I'M JUST REPORTING WHAT I SAW. L

Ludwig · July 28, 2001, 10:47 PM

RHC - I found George Hill's two-gun experimant at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ht=George+Hill

It was on about page 20 of a "George Hill" search. Is he still around? Really great stuff.

July 24, 2001, 09:24 AM	#1
Ludwig Member Join Date: April 15, 2001 Posts: 98	Carry TWO Snubs...? Since the new titanium lightweight snubs came out, I've been wondering if a good defensive system can be worked out carrying TWO of them, with no other gun. This would be for the civilian with a permit, who has to walk in areas where robbery is a concern. Range would be close enough for snub accuracy and .38 energy. 10-shot potential with no revolver reload. Reliability and retention. My first inclination would be hammerless guns. Does anyone have opinions about this possibility and how it might be set up? Thanks. TLR

July 24, 2001, 09:39 AM	#2
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	I think it sounds like a plan. Love my TI S&W 38 Centennial (hammerless). __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 24, 2001, 11:19 AM	#3
RazorsEdge Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2001 Location: Dallas Posts: 207	I think it's feasible. I 've heard of one guy who thought that carrying two SP-101's was trey cool. You got two hand access, wich is not a bad tactical concept. The only downside is that if you use IWB carry, you gotta have room for TWO cylinders. Room inside my jeans remains at a premium. __________________ Descretion is the better part of WhupAss

July 24, 2001, 07:52 PM	#10
STEVE M Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Location: TN. USA Posts: 607	I'll vote for strong side pocket carry and off side ankle carry. (If you are going to carry IWB, you can carry a bigger gun.) __________________ MOLON LABE! I've joined the 300.

July 24, 2001, 09:38 PM	#11
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	Bell Charter Oak makes a holster for two snubbies; it's called the New York Reload model. http://bellcharteroakholsters.com/ __________________ "As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms." -- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss

July 24, 2001, 12:31 PM	#4
Dave Williams Member Join Date: January 2, 1999 Posts: 79	I've thought about this also. Strong side, either IWB or OWB, for access when on foot, and another on an ankle, for seated access. I prefer the 442, however. $200 cheaper, 2 ounces heavier, blued, and can shoot 158gr LSWCHP +P. I think this concept has something going for it. Dave

July 24, 2001, 04:21 PM	#5
CWL Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2001 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,576	Had a friend in college who carried a pair of .357 snubbies. He said that he liked to be able to have one in each hand. Carried one IWB strong side and one SOB. It didn't seem all that comfortable though, and he was a bit of a nut, but we did live in Oakland...

July 24, 2001, 04:29 PM	#6
LBC Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2001 Posts: 385	Ludwig, Yeah, sounds like a good concept. I was pondering purchasing a slightly used S&W Model 13 3" HB yesterday when I saw another 642 in the case (I've already got one from that shop) and it reminded me of a dream I had some months ago. I heard a 'bump in the night," went downstairs into the kitchen, surprised a burglar coming through the garage door into the kitchen, and I raised not one but TWO 642's in his direction! Yes, 10 rounds, no reload, firing simultaneously. My only thought is it would take a lot of practice. Best Wishes, LBC

July 24, 2001, 04:30 PM	#7
Ludwig Member Join Date: April 15, 2001 Posts: 98	I think the 442 is a great gun. Probably what my snubs would be. Probably three 442s...one to wear out practicing. One thing I was thinking about this 2-gun setup is one in a jacket pocket, no pocket holster, with your hand on the gun if you are sensing danger. A hammerless will come out fast. Also, some people say you can shoot through your pocket, worst case. NEVER TRIED THIS. DOSEN'T SOUND ENTIRELY SAFE. But I've read articles by people who claim to have done it. Good idea about the ankle holster for when you are seated. L

July 24, 2001, 04:37 PM	#8
Ludwig Member Join Date: April 15, 2001 Posts: 98	I noticed on one thread that the 642 is more popular than the 442. Is this because it's stainless and therefore more corrosion proof for carry? I see that they are the same weight. The 642 looks good. Thanks. L

July 24, 2001, 06:54 PM	#9
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I will be picking up a Taurus Ti snubby soon. There may be times when I carry either the .38, and my P-32 (.32 ACP), or when I carry the .38, and the 941 (.22 mag) I should get this week. Either way, I won't feel undergunned, unless I'm in bear country.

July 24, 2001, 11:01 PM	#12
PreserveFreedom Guest Posts: n/a	Why limit yourself to 10 rounds? If you carried a pair of Taurus 617's, you would not only have 14 rounds of 357 Magnum, but you could be ultra cool.

July 25, 2001, 03:59 PM	#13
LBC Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2001 Posts: 385	A lot of good input here. Taurus would be my second choice, or maybe first choice of you want titanium and porting and a lockable, exposed hammer. I tried talking a woman into that kind of Taurus the other day -- she was trading in a lightly used S&W 640 because she didn't like the "long" trigger pull associated with the concealed hammer version. So, she was set on an exposed hammer she could thumb-cock for "practice target shooting," even though she's aware she'll never cock the hammer in a gunfight, and the exposed hammer is more likely to snag She was also looking at a Kahr P9, which is an awesome little gun, but I don't know much about its track record yet. Anyway, to answer your question about 642 vs. 442, I chose the stainless because of its superior rust resistance. But don't forget, Vanessa Williams carried a 442 in "Eraser" with Arnold Schwarzaneggar, and it looked pretty nice in her hands... LBC

July 25, 2001, 04:14 PM	#14
FPrice Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts Posts: 1,456	Firing from inside pocket... Ludwig, One of the upsides of reading lots of gun magazines is that you eventually read about almost any subject one might mention. Someone (forgot who) did an article on this many years ago. In short, you can do it, but plan on your garment catching fire, or at least beginning to smoulder. If you ever saw "Tombstone" with Kurt Russell, watch the scene where Curly Bill Brocius (Powers Boothe) shoots Fred White, the town Marshall. It's a CLOSE range shot (maybe 12") and White's shirt catches fire and starts smoking. This is what you should expect. __________________ Frosty Price "No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai

July 25, 2001, 04:37 PM	#15
Ludwig Member Join Date: April 15, 2001 Posts: 98	That's what I thought. Smoldering coat. They said the bullets were not deflected much....that they tended to hit a little low. Ayoob has written about it, but nowhere at length that I ever saw. Just a few words here and there. I think a pocket to be used for the last resort would need some design attention - fireproof material, easily pierced, no seams, retains the gun, pointable, and so on. L

July 26, 2001, 12:23 AM	#16
ICBentley Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2000 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 169	Snubbie - adequate for most self defense encounters. NY reload - fastest. Shrouded hammer - only way to go for in pocket firing. Flaming pockets - test this, shoot through some rags or other material, regardless of speculation and movies, I've not been able to ignite cloth with a smokeless powder load. Per Marshal and Sanow best and most proven load in 2" .38 is still the old FBI round: 158gr LSWHP +P http://www.evanmarshall.com/towert/s...werfigures.htm Be safe, Bentley "The defence of one's self, justly called the primary law of nature, is not, nor can it be abrogated by any regulation of municipal law." --- James Wilson, Wilson, Of the Natural Rights of Individuals, in 2 The Works of James Wilson 335 (J.D. Andrews ed. 1896). [from a series of lectures given between 1790 and 1792]

July 26, 2001, 07:15 AM	#17
G3 Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 138	Ludwig, Are you planning on shooting both snub guns at once a la` Last Man Standing? Don't forget you are responsible for ever round you fire. Drawing two handguns and hip shooting them doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Have you tried this at the range? My guess is one would make a lot of noise and get poor hits/misses. If you intend to use one snub to be a primary and then going for another snub for a NY reload that is a sound tactic. Why not just use a higher capacity primary?

July 26, 2001, 06:25 PM	#18
Griff Member Join Date: February 17, 2001 Posts: 17	When I carry my Taurus M85 ultralight I carry it in my weak hand front pants pocket backed up by a Bianchi speedstrip in with my car keys. I also carry a Beretta 25 on my ankle for my strong hand. Carrying two guns of the same caliber or similar size makes sense to me.

July 26, 2001, 08:16 PM	#19
Ludwig Member Join Date: April 15, 2001 Posts: 98	True that it's easy to miss with a snub. I've used a 442 for several years and it takes constant practice to stay good with it. I also shoot a 640. Concern about missed shots is an important part of deciding whether to use a snub, and most people just don't have time to practice the required amount. I carry a Glock 19 IWB, but it seems it could never be at the ready the way a hammerless snub in a windbreaker pocket can be, with your hand already on the gun, no pocket holster, walking down the street in a bad area in broad daylight. But you have to be really good with it. Just my opinion. L

July 26, 2001, 08:51 PM	#20
Ludwig Member Join Date: April 15, 2001 Posts: 98	Forgot to mention that I hope to try Bentley's test shooting through some rags this weekend with the 158 LHP load. L

July 27, 2001, 07:13 AM	#21
BMWGS80 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 288	On occaission I have been known to carry two S&W 65 in a "Miami Classic" shoulder rig. Load Hydra Shok or Golden SAber. Mods include scabbard suspended from center back toggle for Smith inner city fighter ( 9 3/4 " bowie). Problem is you have to drop or pocket the first pitsol to grab the second. Unless you plan to use them two handed. The Bell Charter Oak is a good rig. I have used it for double autos. They are more comptfortable because they are flat. Cheers, ts

July 27, 2001, 09:19 AM	#22
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Just drop the empty on the sidewalk, like they do in Hollywood. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 28, 2001, 10:46 AM	#23
RHC Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Posts: 678	Well, I can't seem to find it using the search feature, but one of the all time classic TFL posts was by George Hill about his two gun experiment. I have it printed out; it was originally posted 2-25-00 if that helps, but the print out doesn't seem to have the thread title. __________________ "...where the wind comes sweeping down the plains..."

July 28, 2001, 02:32 PM	#24
Ludwig Member Join Date: April 15, 2001 Posts: 98	I went to the range today and watched a guy shoot holes in medium cotton, one thickness, then two, pulled up around the 442 Airweight .32 snub, as if it was a jacket pocket. The cloth was tight against the muzzle. Five rounds of 125 Golden Saber +P and five rounds of Win 158 LHP +P. The shots blew 1" to 2" holes, straight through, with black soot marks around the holes. No ignition of the cotton whatsoever. I'M NOT RECOMMENDING THIS. I'M JUST REPORTING WHAT I SAW. L

July 28, 2001, 10:47 PM	#25
Ludwig Member Join Date: April 15, 2001 Posts: 98	RHC - I found George Hill's two-gun experimant at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ht=George+Hill It was on about page 20 of a "George Hill" search. Is he still around? Really great stuff.