civilian marksmanship program - Page 2

carguychris · January 21, 2013, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Stripper clips are not "magazine feeding devices."

But aren't they "feed strip(s)"? See my post above.

CowTowner · January 22, 2013, 10:33 AM

I was always taught a clip feeds the magazine, the magazine feeds the firearm.

JimDandy · January 22, 2013, 11:21 AM

And these laws are written by emotionally reacting individuals who may or may not have general firearms knowledge, let alone specific to the firearms they're trying to regulate... Do you think THEY were taught that the clip feeds the magazine feeds the device? Or care? They're only going to care about getting the guy with the scary gun arrested and taking away his RKBA. And probably everyone else's.

Willie Sutton · January 22, 2013, 12:12 PM

Know what?

The only definition that counts is the one that is accepted in a court of law.

That definition will be set when expert witnesses from both sides each give their expert opininions under oath in a proceeding requiring the answer to be sought. Sadly this will probably take place when someone is charged, and their defense rests on the definition.

When that time comes, the "expert" for the state will need to come up and testify that a dog has 5 legs because they state has decided that a tail is a leg, and the defense expert(s) will have reams of technical manuals, army publications, and an entire suite of history on their side to show that a clip is not a removable magazine, and that a M1 Garand is not an assault rifle.

All of this is based on the presumption that "some" LEO will be stupid enough to arrest someone for shooting one, and "some" prosecutor is stupid enough to try to make a case that an enbloc clip is a removable magazine. The decision will be made by a jury of 12 citizens. I have sufficient faith in the system that they will not ALL believe after it's explained to them in simple language that a dog does not have 5 legs just because the state says so. If it were me, I'd hire someone who was retired from the Army Research and Development Command at Aberdeen MD as my expert witness, but that's just me.

A "Feed Strip" feeds a few obsolete machine guns. It has a formally accepted techncal definition as well. A Garand enbloc clip is not a "feed strip". See Japanese Type 92 as an example.

There's enough really bad stuff in this bill to concentrate on, the Garand issue is just chicken-little stuff. Move on.

Willie

.

JimDandy · January 22, 2013, 12:47 PM

You're still saying Assault Rifle, when the law in question uses the term Assault Weapon as defined by the law in question. If the law calls for the timely cropping of all 5th legs on English Springer Spaneils, then further defines the fifth leg of an English Springer Spaniel as it's tail then it calls for the timely cropping of all English Springer Spaniel tails.

You're right, and it was my first answer... some poor schlub will have to volunteer to be the test case, the hard way... but when the law says all things with A and B are C, and C is illegal, saying such and such isn't D doesn't really matter.

Willie Sutton · January 22, 2013, 11:13 PM

M1 Garands don't have a remiovable magazine. No matter how you slice it, they do not have a removable magazine. They are therefore NOT ADDRESSED by the NY Law and if any DA were stupid enough to try to make a case about them, he would be laughed out of court.

There are enough real things to worry about on behalf of New York residents without making more stuff up that has no bearing on anything.

Scaring off CMP clients and potential CMP clients when we should be ENCOURAGING folks in NY to buy Garands in order to excercise their Second Amendment Rights is counterproductive to the effort.

Willie

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gc70 · January 22, 2013, 11:42 PM

With regard to CMP sales of Garands to NY customers, the CMP's Chief Operating Officer posted the following to the CMP forum on 1/16/2013:

Quote:

guys, I have been on travel and not reading the forum. Answer to question is that we will comply with the law, federal or state. NY just passed one and we need time to digest it - give us a week at least. Locking thread - since there should be nothing else said after my answer.

January 22, 2013, 10:33 AM	#27
CowTowner Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Cowtown of course! Posts: 1,747	I was always taught a clip feeds the magazine, the magazine feeds the firearm. __________________ NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor *“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......”* President John F. Kennedy

January 22, 2013, 11:21 AM	#28
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 2,556	And these laws are written by emotionally reacting individuals who may or may not have general firearms knowledge, let alone specific to the firearms they're trying to regulate... Do you think THEY were taught that the clip feeds the magazine feeds the device? Or care? They're only going to care about getting the guy with the scary gun arrested and taking away his RKBA. And probably everyone else's.

January 22, 2013, 12:12 PM	#29
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	Know what? The only definition that counts is the one that is accepted in a court of law. That definition will be set when expert witnesses from both sides each give their expert opininions under oath in a proceeding requiring the answer to be sought. Sadly this will probably take place when someone is charged, and their defense rests on the definition. When that time comes, the "expert" for the state will need to come up and testify that a dog has 5 legs because they state has decided that a tail is a leg, and the defense expert(s) will have reams of technical manuals, army publications, and an entire suite of history on their side to show that a clip is not a removable magazine, and that a M1 Garand is not an assault rifle. All of this is based on the presumption that "some" LEO will be stupid enough to arrest someone for shooting one, and "some" prosecutor is stupid enough to try to make a case that an enbloc clip is a removable magazine. The decision will be made by a jury of 12 citizens. I have sufficient faith in the system that they will not ALL believe after it's explained to them in simple language that a dog does not have 5 legs just because the state says so. If it were me, I'd hire someone who was retired from the Army Research and Development Command at Aberdeen MD as my expert witness, but that's just me. A "Feed Strip" feeds a few obsolete machine guns. It has a formally accepted techncal definition as well. A Garand enbloc clip is not a "feed strip". See Japanese Type 92 as an example. There's enough really bad stuff in this bill to concentrate on, the Garand issue is just chicken-little stuff. Move on. Willie .

January 22, 2013, 12:47 PM	#30
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 2,556	You're still saying Assault Rifle, when the law in question uses the term Assault Weapon as defined by the law in question. If the law calls for the timely cropping of all 5th legs on English Springer Spaneils, then further defines the fifth leg of an English Springer Spaniel as it's tail then it calls for the timely cropping of all English Springer Spaniel tails. You're right, and it was my first answer... some poor schlub will have to volunteer to be the test case, the hard way... but when the law says all things with A and B are C, and C is illegal, saying such and such isn't D doesn't really matter.

January 22, 2013, 11:13 PM	#31
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	M1 Garands don't have a remiovable magazine. No matter how you slice it, they do not have a removable magazine. They are therefore NOT ADDRESSED by the NY Law and if any DA were stupid enough to try to make a case about them, he would be laughed out of court. There are enough real things to worry about on behalf of New York residents without making more stuff up that has no bearing on anything. Scaring off CMP clients and potential CMP clients when we should be ENCOURAGING folks in NY to buy Garands in order to excercise their Second Amendment Rights is counterproductive to the effort. Willie .