The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 9, 2018, 11:24 PM   #1
armednfree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2016
Posts: 112
I'm confused

We have the Mossberg Shockwave and the Remington Tac-14. Not SBS's nor handguns. So would the status change if you put a regular stock on it? If so, why.

If I put a 14" barrel on a shotgun I own with the birds head grip, legal or no? Or a 14" barrel on my full stock shot gun?

Why?
armednfree is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 12:34 AM   #2
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 6,653
modifications

I will prep this with the comment, THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING:

The Shockwaves and Tac's are legal under a present interpretation of the law in that they are manufactured and sold AS HANDGUNS. So too the various Mares Leg lever guns (I think). Does it make sense, no, but that is the current take. ....the fact that the Tac and Shockwave were manufactured and produced in that configuration makes them legal.

Adding a regular stock to either would create a SBS, as you have modified the firearm from its original configuration as supplied as a HANDGUN, to a short shotgun.

Adding a shorter than 18" barrel to any existing SHOTGUN (whether birds head /folding, or fixed stock) creates a SBS in every circumstance, and has since the passage of the NFA in 1934, and its current GCA follow on legislation of more recent history. By doing so, you have modified what was a legal shotgun into a short shotgun.

Again........this is my take AS I UNDERSTAND IT and there are bound to be more views, more informed than mine!!!!!!!
bamaranger is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 01:13 AM   #3
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 9,791
Both of those guns are classified as "firearms" under federal law. They are neither shotguns or handguns.
A "firearm" can not have a shoulder stock, and must be at least 26" overall. The "firearm" must have been manufactured without a shoulder stock.

Adding a shoulder stock changes the classification. With stock and 14" barrel, it would become a "short barreled shotgun." You would need to apply for a tax stamp before adding the stock.

Since existing shotguns HAVE OR HAD shoulder stocks, they can not be converted to "firearm" status.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 08:23 AM   #4
Mn lefty
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2018
Posts: 3
I have a Rossi 44 mag Ranch Hand. The box it came in is labeled “This is a handgun.” It was called into NICS as a handgun. My Shockwave was called in as a handgun but can’t be concealed which puts it in a legally trouble area for me.
Mn lefty is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 08:37 AM   #5
jaguarxk120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,466
Both Remington and Mossberg have made the barrels slightly different and they won't
fit standard receivers, nor will the Shockwave - TAC take longer barrels.


Maybe the mfgr's have changed the stock fitting so only that special grip will only

fit those guns.
jaguarxk120 is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 08:43 AM   #6
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 4,782
Quote:
Both of those guns are classified as "firearms" under federal law. They are neither shotguns or handguns.
A "firearm" can not have a shoulder stock, and must be at least 26" overall. The "firearm" must have been manufactured without a shoulder stock.

Adding a shoulder stock changes the classification. With stock and 14" barrel, it would become a "short barreled shotgun." You would need to apply for a tax stamp before adding the stock.

Since existing shotguns HAVE OR HAD shoulder stocks, they can not be converted to "firearm" status.
So, let me ask this corollary:

If I purchased, long ago, The Mossberg cruiser which came as a PGO only - and it has never had a stock installed; would I be legal putting the 14" barrel on it as long as I also installed the BH's grip to make the 26" minimum length?
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 08:47 AM   #7
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 7,678
Quote:
My Shockwave was called in as a handgun but can’t be concealed which puts it in a legally trouble area for me.
Quote:
The Mossberg Shockwave is legal (in the United States) because it’s a firearm, yet avoids falling into any of the subcategories of firearm the law defines.

It’s not a handgun, because the barrel isn’t rifled and it is too long (overall length more than 26 inches).
It’s not a rifle, because it doesn’t have a rifled barrel and isn’t shoulder-fired.
It’s not an “any other weap
Presumably the reason it is called in as a "handgun" is that there is no "firearm" option for a NICS background check. Also presumably it doesn't matter because there is no record of the NICS check kept by the BATF after approval.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 09:11 AM   #8
kozak6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,993
The 1934 NFA defines shotguns as shoulder fired.

Shockwaves/Tac-14's are not, as they leave the factory as a Title 1 "Other", not unlike any other "pistol grip only" shotgun (or stripped receiver). They transfer generally like a pistol, but are not.

Put a stock on one, and now it's a shotgun, which needs at least an 18" barrel or else it's an SBS.

So what if you put a Shockwave barrel on a stocked Mossy? Nope, as it started as a shoulder fired shotgun and needs at least an 18" barrel.

So then what's with the 14" barrel? AOW's include unrifled pistols for some reason. Except, AOW's are also defined as concealable, which in itself lacks a definition. So, the ATF has ruled that concealable actually means at least 26" in overall length (in consistence with the rest of the NFA), regardless of barrel length (in inconsistence with the rest of the NFA).

The 14" barrel is just what it takes to get to 26".

A Shockwave-style Cruiser that has never had a stock installed should be fine regardless of barrel length as long as it's at least 26" overall length. That is, if you feel comfortable proving it. And unless it's concealed, of course.
kozak6 is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 09:42 AM   #9
armednfree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2016
Posts: 112
Like I said, confusing. That's because it defies logic.
armednfree is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 11:37 AM   #10
cslinger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2002
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,611
The amount of time, money and resources we spend on classifying deadly weapons is assinine. Imagine if we shifted that effort and those resources to actual law enforcement and simplified it down to “if you are caught committing any crime with any deadly weapon or item used as a deadly weapon you are going away from society, do no pass go”.

Threaten a liquor store owner with a .38 yer outta here.
Getaway driver with a short barreled shotgun.....do not pass go.
Mug somebody and have a broken bottle on you buhby.

The sheer waste of money and resources that we could bring to bear against actual criminals is mind boggling.

But hey let’s carry on with the minutiae of making sure Joe accountant can’t have a 15.87 inch rifle or the fact a shotgun is only a shotgun if it’s not a firearm but only on the waning moon of the summer solstice......

Sorry I have NO dog in the Shockwave’s or bump stocks or braces or whatever it just annoys me more and more the older I get at the amount of effort we waste on this crap but we will let REAL felons go everyday.

I digress.

I return you to your “firearm” discussion.
__________________
"Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"
cslinger is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 01:42 PM   #11
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 19,120
It's more than just time, money, and resources that get wasted due to our asinine firearms laws, sometimes, it is innocent lives.

Suggest you research what created the Ruby Ridge fiasco, and the Branch Davidian massacre outside Waco for a couple of the most famous.

Not only the laws, but overzealous enforcement, along with the egos, both personal and institutional of the people and agencies involved lead to a number of people dead who wouldn't have been, otherwise.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 01:44 PM   #12
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 9,791
FITASC- the answer is yes- A Mossberg Cruiser that has never had a stock installed can have any length barrel-as long as the gun is 26" overall and does not have a shoulder stock. It's now 28" long.

I could legally cut my Cruiser barrel to 16" with the stock grip- or even shorter if I installed that stupid looking bird's head grip. But why? 26" is 26"?
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 07:39 PM   #13
Drm50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 10, 2014
Posts: 711
These laws were passed as Feel Good politics because of the likes of Bonnie & Clyde and the
other famous criminal of the 1930s. They were outlawed because they were easily concealed, no because they were anymore dangerous that a standard shotgun. I don't like
the Shockwave, Mares Leg and tech 9. They are useless except as a toy.
Drm50 is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 11:13 PM   #14
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 9,791
BTW- the "Mare's Leg" guns ARE handguns. They have a rifled barrel.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old December 12, 2018, 10:57 AM   #15
Fishbed77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 4,511
Quote:
These laws were passed as Feel Good politics because of the likes of Bonnie & Clyde and the
other famous criminal of the 1930s.
The NFA was (and is) a "Jim Crow" law that was intended to make ownership of certain firearms too expensive for most lower income (i.e. most poor rural and African American) citizens. Otherwise, these firearms would have been outright banned rather than subjected to a hefty tax.

Remember that, due to inflation, $200 in 1934 was equal to over $3700 today. This line of thought has not changed. Recently, certain legislators have proposed increasing the tax stamp or tying it to inflation to keep all but the highest-income citizens from owning these firearms.

Also, the requirement for CLEO sign-off on certain tax stamps was another way to make sure certain people (i.e. Southern blacks) could subjectively not be allowed to own certain firearms.
Fishbed77 is offline  
Old December 14, 2018, 09:29 AM   #16
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs View Post
Both of those guns are classified as "firearms" under federal law. They are neither shotguns or handguns.
A "firearm" can not have a shoulder stock, and must be at least 26" overall. The "firearm" must have been manufactured without a shoulder stock.

Adding a shoulder stock changes the classification. With stock and 14" barrel, it would become a "short barreled shotgun." You would need to apply for a tax stamp before adding the stock.

Since existing shotguns HAVE OR HAD shoulder stocks, they can not be converted to "firearm" status.


So could someone produce a side by side like that? Like those old Ithaca bank guard guns?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stonewall50 is offline  
Old December 14, 2018, 12:01 PM   #17
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,446
Probably not

The nature of a single or double barrel make it mighty short with a short barrel.

Pumps and semi-autos have length in the receiver, a break open gun? Not so much.
I think there is still a minimum length that applies. The shockwave and similar do not interest me at all.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old December 14, 2018, 03:02 PM   #18
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 19,120
Quote:
The nature of a single or double barrel make it mighty short with a short barrel.
Indeed, but there is a simple answer to meeting the required 26" overall length, make the barrels longer!

Since the break action is shorter than the pump action, simply extend the barrel length of the break action to meet the 26" overall length. The gun is still the same short length, overall, and just as handy.

Remember, to avoid the tax stamp, the gun must have 18" barrels AND a 26" overall length, as minimums. If an "unstocked" double needs 22" (or whatever length over 18") to meet the 26" overall length then it needs longer barrels. It's complex, but not complicated.

If you really want to get confused, study the Miller case. The high court did not actually say the short barrel shotgun was not a militia weapon,, they said "we have been presented no evidence..." which was because the defense didn't show up to the appeal hearing, so the court ruled in favor of the prosecution. The Govt took this to mean the entire NFA 1934 was constitutionally valid, and therefore set in stone, and no one has brought a challenge to that (or one that SCOTUS would hear) in all the years since.


It's a bad law, supported by a bad court ruling, but its what we've been stuck with for the past 80 years+ and when things go that long without challenge, they tend to stay that way...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 14, 2018, 07:14 PM   #19
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 9,791
Just pay the tax and do it right.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_3935.JPG (42.3 KB, 26 views)
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old December 14, 2018, 08:59 PM   #20
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 4,782
That grip looks REAL painful
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old December 15, 2018, 12:15 AM   #21
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 9,791
Not as painful as getting the web of your hand jammed under the opening lever, or the second barrel going off while the gun is in full recoil.
It's about the same grip angle as the second model Ithaca Auto & Burglar Gun.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old December 15, 2018, 09:27 PM   #22
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 7,678
Quote:
So could someone produce a side by side like that? Like those old Ithaca bank guard guns?
Yes, IF
1. It was never made with a sholder butt stock.
2. The total length is greater than 26 inches.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10371 seconds with 9 queries