The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 21, 2015, 05:34 PM   #1
leadcounsel
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,119
Awareness and self defense in home garage

Outstanding example of situational awareness and self defense and self preservation against multiple armed and presumably very dangerous assailants.

The setup. Man comes home at night and pulls in garage. Three (yes 3) thugs follow him into the garage by preventing the overhead garage door from closing. One of them is armed with what appears to be a handgun.

This would have probably been a very bad ending for the homeowner if he wasn't armed. He'd at least have been robbed with lasting psychological issues. Could have been beaten and killed.

Instead, he immediately takes defensive action, and opens fire on the thugs. I watched it a few times and counted 10 shots from the home owner. Quite impressive situational awareness and being armed and ready to defend.

Share with family and friends. Lots of great lessons here:

1. Situational awareness.
2. Being armed and ready. The bad guy gets off at least one shot, so perhaps the homeowner should have fired sooner through his window.
3. High capacity magazines are valuable, especially against several opponents.
4. This reaction likely came from training. Training is very important.
5. He appears to have scored several hits when it mattered against the closest thug.
6. Video evidence is very important. Get those cameras installed. The thugs shot in the back might otherwise have a lawsuit or criminal actions against him.

Not sure how legal it was to continue firing as they were running away and him giving chase outside... but I can't see him being prosecuted for that as the entire event unfolded in seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S7SPrb6oj4
leadcounsel is offline  
Old May 21, 2015, 07:04 PM   #2
skizzums
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2013
Location: Douglasville, Ga
Posts: 4,615
that's definitely intense vid. it looks like he knew he was being follow, because once the car drove by the garage he had the wife(or whoever) get back in. he gave chase, but I couldn't see any flashes after the people we're out of the garage. hard to tell, but I think it was handled well. maybe if I had to critique, I would say he could have started shooting before the man opened the driver door, IF he knew he had a gun in his hand AND the driver had his gun ready, but I think the thug could have just walked up and shot through the window. but who knows the actual situation, and if he had time.
__________________
My head is bloody, but unbowed
skizzums is offline  
Old May 21, 2015, 07:31 PM   #3
leadcounsel
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,119
Quote:
it looks like he knew he was being follow, because once the car drove by the garage he had the wife(or whoever) get back in.
Good observation. I hadn't noticed he had a passenger because I was fixated on the thugs. So this guy saved not only himself but his passenger from certain harm (especially now seeing the thug's gun was loaded and he was willing to use it).
leadcounsel is offline  
Old May 21, 2015, 08:27 PM   #4
Bultaco
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2013
Location: Western Co.
Posts: 156
In that close situation if you bring out a gun you better start using it. I suspect the guy saw them on the street and was watching as he pulled in, hoping the door would finish closing.
Bultaco is offline  
Old May 21, 2015, 11:41 PM   #5
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,244
IMO the defender should have been more concerned with securing the scene than in reconnaissance. Once they were routed, covering the door while it closed and locked would have been smart. He actually kept the door from closing and providing security from any possible return.

I noticed he got a little free with his gun muzzle when he returned to the car to check on whoever was inside and retrieve a light.

I was impressed that the guy who approached the car door managed to keep from dropping his gun even after being shot what looked like at least 2 times.

It looked like he returned fire but apparently missed even though the muzzle of his gun couldn't have been more than a foot or two from the defender.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 22, 2015, 01:17 AM   #6
hartcreek
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2014
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,549
The defender did just fine. Closing the door would have been a dumb thing for him to do since he had just fired his weapon and shot or drove them off. That door is not bullet proof but it sure would have prevented him from seeing if they decided to come back.
hartcreek is offline  
Old May 22, 2015, 03:29 AM   #7
skizzums
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2013
Location: Douglasville, Ga
Posts: 4,615
^I agree, I think making sure the guys didn't double back, or go intoo the fron door of the house was a good idea. I'm guessing they left the car, or at least all parties didn't make it to the car
__________________
My head is bloody, but unbowed
skizzums is offline  
Old May 22, 2015, 09:54 AM   #8
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
This happened in Brazil, according to the video. So the legalities of shooting as they're running out may be very much different than here.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old May 22, 2015, 10:03 PM   #9
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,244
Quote:
Closing the door would have been a dumb thing for him to do since he had just fired his weapon and shot or drove them off.
As long as they don't regroup and try to attack again and as long as there aren't more of them waiting outside the door out of sight waiting for him to come out.

Had the door closed between the defender and the attackers in the first place the whole encounter would have been prevented. Hard to see how letting it close between the defender and the attackers after the shooting would be a bad idea.
Quote:
That door is not bullet proof but it sure would have prevented him from seeing if they decided to come back.
The door won't stop bullets but it will prevent them from actually aiming at him and it will prevent him from being rushed. He really has no idea for sure how many attackers there are or how they are armed.

If he's worried about them shooting blindly through the door there's really no reason for him to stay in the garage anyway. He could have let the door close and gotten into the house in much less time than it took him to run outside, run back inside for a light, run back outside again and then stand outside looking around in the dark with his light.

The reason I bring it up is because it speaks to mindset. If your goal is defense then you've won as soon as you neutralize the defenders and/or chase them away and secure the area. There's no need to try to figure out where they went or go look outside to see if there are more. As long as they're gone and can't get to you if they try to return things are good. Following them outside to see what they're going to do next needlessly generates a lot of potential for negative outcomes. I think it's easy get caught up in the excitement and forget what the real goal is.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 23, 2015, 08:22 AM   #10
jtmckinney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 490
Watch the gun fight again and tell me if you see any muzzle rise with the shooting. These must have been some pretty small caliber firearms in use.
__________________
“Government does few things well but it does them at great expense” Cal Thomas “When Government Can’t Be Trusted” 6/11/2013
When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; When I am stronger than you, I take away your freedoms because that is according to my principles. Frank Herbert "Children of Dune"
jtmckinney is offline  
Old May 23, 2015, 09:47 AM   #11
Ruger480
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2013
Location: Central Iowa
Posts: 720
Any idea where this happened? I'd like to look for a news story or police report.
Ruger480 is offline  
Old May 23, 2015, 01:37 PM   #12
leadcounsel
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,119
Quote:
Any idea where this happened? I'd like to look for a news story or police report.
I read a translated report which I believe said Brazil and that the armed thug died.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old May 26, 2015, 12:46 AM   #13
Armed_Chicagoan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2013
Location: Albany Park, Chicago
Posts: 721
I think he should have put some more rounds into the armed guy, he ignored him as he stood tight next to him gun still in hand. He ran away, but he just as easily could have shot him. The accomplices were running away after the first shot.

Worked out OK though.
Armed_Chicagoan is offline  
Old May 27, 2015, 11:19 AM   #14
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,780
Here's a link to an article on the attack:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brazil-cctv...jacker-1502602

I find this story really sad, and that's because the only reason this guy was able to defend himself legally was because he was a police officer.

Gun ownership in Brazil is extremely restricted and permits are very expensive. Carry permits are issued only to certain groups like law enforcement. So if this was a normal guy, the attackers would have had free reign to do what they wanted with him and his wife.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old June 1, 2015, 10:07 AM   #15
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,961
I concur with JohnKSa with the thought that the threat and attack has ended (for the moment) rendering the garage safe for the door to be closed and then make entry into the house. In my opinion the attack was stopped so no need to pursue (mission accomplished)
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA NROI Range Officer,
ICORE Range Officer,
,MAG 40 Graduate
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old June 1, 2015, 06:55 PM   #16
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 4,955
Where do guys live where this crap is happening? I want to know so I do not travel there.........................
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old June 2, 2015, 05:37 PM   #17
leadcounsel
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,119
Quote:
Where do guys live where this crap is happening? I want to know so I do not travel there.........................
I believe the video occurred in Brazil, but don't get naive or lazy because crime knows no boundaries.

So, pick a city. Robbery, murders, and shootings are all-too-common in US cities.

Baltimore has had 43 homicides IN ONE MONTH IN MAY 2015!!! That's the worse in 4 decades. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ears/28284839/

Chicago averages over 1 homicide per day every year.http://heyjackass.com/category/2014-...-murder-stats/

Urban America can be quite violent.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old June 2, 2015, 09:59 PM   #18
Limnophile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2015
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Posts: 976
Quote:
Watch the gun fight again and tell me if you see any muzzle rise with the shooting. These must have been some pretty small caliber firearms in use.
I believe Brazil allows citizens to carry only handguns chambered for non-military calibers. Thus, 9x17 (.380 Auto) and 9x21 are popular. I assume cops are issued guns of military caliber, likely 9 Luger. But, as an off-duty cop, he may have been restricted to a civilian gun at the time.

However, the apparent lack of recoil may be mostly due to surveillance video having a small sampling rate (fewer frames per second) to allow for more efficient data storage and less frequent recording medium changes.
Limnophile is offline  
Old June 3, 2015, 08:04 AM   #19
jtmckinney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 490
Quote:
However, the apparent lack of recoil may be mostly due to surveillance video having a small sampling rate (fewer frames per second) to allow for more efficient data storage and less frequent recording medium changes.
Sounds reasonable. How clean the garage was also made me wonder but being in Brazil you probably don't want anything that isn't under lock and key better than just a garage door.

I was in Brazil for about 30 days back in 2000. Bush, Gore election happened first week I was there. That it hadn't been resolved by the time I left was also making headlines there. I had never even heard of Sao Paulo before being told I was flying into there. What a huge city. That was the only time I have seen crack cocaine openly smoked by what looked like some homeless men. The local resident who also worked for the company I worked for at the time told me about the huge problem drugs were and how bad the crime was, at least in Sao Paulo.

That this guy was with the police I bet drugs and drug trafficking was somehow involved. That he came out of his car with gun blasting also tells me he knew the bad guys weren't there just to say hello.
__________________
“Government does few things well but it does them at great expense” Cal Thomas “When Government Can’t Be Trusted” 6/11/2013
When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; When I am stronger than you, I take away your freedoms because that is according to my principles. Frank Herbert "Children of Dune"
jtmckinney is offline  
Old June 5, 2015, 01:56 AM   #20
bungiex88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2015
Location: central pa
Posts: 263
The first thing I noticed was him pointing his gun at his passenger after going back to his car but I can't say anything I couldn't imagine what was going on in his head. And I like how he got a couple shots at everyone.
bungiex88 is offline  
Old June 5, 2015, 05:16 AM   #21
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,745
Quote:
Where do guys live where this crap is happening? I want to know so I do not travel there
It happens in America.
manta49 is offline  
Old June 5, 2015, 11:24 AM   #22
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 4,955
It happens all over the world, but not in every location in every country. There are still plenty of places where these things do NOT happen.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08163 seconds with 10 queries