Teachers with firearms

[johnelmore]

When some people envision a school with teachers carrying a firearm they imagine all sorts of disasterous scenarios, but I might ask what is so disasterous or scary about such a situation? Most teachers in these schools are of greater character then those employed by the local police force or military. When I was in the Army there were plenty of rough characters with questionable backgrounds allowed to handle various weapons systems.

In any of the various school shootings my belief is there would have been a different outcome had each teacher been carrying at least a small pistol. Even a small caliber .380 might have turned the tide.

I cant imagine being a school teacher. Its a tough job requiring a greater patience and education then most other jobs in society. You have to present all day long to children who might not be that interested. I dont see why we should not trust the teachers with firearms. I can tell you some fellows on the local police force and military are not of as great character as some school teachers.

Some people imagine scenes of chaos and violence when they think of teachers "packing heat". I imagine a safer school which presents a harder target to those who wish to bring violence into a clearly peaceful place.

Let me be clear. I would only want teachers carrying firearms in school after a thorough background check. There are pilots who carry pistols after such checks. Why cant there be the same for teachers? A program which trains and qualifies teachers to carry firearms.

[doofus47]

It seems weird to me, on an intellectual level, that if parents are willing to simply hand over their child to be indoctrinated by teacher X for a year with ideas that are intended to stay with that child for life, that they wouldn't also trust that child's life to teacher x.
yeah, I know theory only goes so far...

[zxcvbob]

Some people imagine scenes of chaos and violence when they think of teachers "packing heat". I imagine a safer school which presents a harder target to those who wish to bring violence into a clearly peaceful place.

[Tom Servo]

Bob, we're not sure what the origin or context of that picture actually is. There's strong suspicion that it's not a teacher at all.

That said, armed teachers? It seems a good idea, but it's going to be a very hard sell. The public will be inundated with fear and uncertainty from the opposition. Their points?

• An unbalanced or malicious student may take the weapon from the teacher.
• The teacher may snap.
• The teacher may misplace or fail to secure the weapon.
• There might be a negligent discharge.
• There might be a mechanical function resulting in discharge.

We can howl all we want about the inaccuracy of one or more of those points, but the fact is, this will come up for debate in the city council meetings, in PTA meetings, and in the legislative debate. And we'll lose.

All one of them has to do is stand up and yell, "do you want a person you barely know carrying loaded guns around your children? At school?" Cue up the images from Sandy Hook and Columbine.

When dealing with crowds, emotion beats out facts all too often. The other side has emotion, some of which is quite raw as of late, on their side.

[johnelmore]

I dont hear anyone being concerned about criminals taking away pistols from police officers although it does happen and is a concern.

I know there will be some issues, but I believe a training and certification program would solve these issues. In any event I would not advocate for an open carry in a school, but a concealed carry of a pistol.

The picture below doesnt look like a real working rifle and I get this feeling it was taken outside of the USA.

[jimbob86]

All emotions aside, I think a better outcome could have been realized at Sandy Hook had the Principal, Dawn Hochsprung, confronted the murderer with near -supersonic jacketed hollow points, instead of harsh words.

In our local school, there are several gunnies, including the Principal, who no doubt have the mindset, and the skills to deal with such a situation. They are just prohibited from keeping the proper tools on school grounds, by State Law (With an adjustment to their contracts by the School Board, they would be covered under Federal Law.) .......

We live in a rural area- response times would be measured in " X minutes too late" ..... the only way a gun will make much of a difference is if it is on site when the event starts.

[40-82]

I am guessing without knowing that the picture in the earlier post came from Israel.

Teachers represent a cross section of our population, people of every kind of character, no more or less noble than any other group. Whatever nobility some teachers may possess those who advance to administrative positions in education seem to manage to temper.

School systems will do battle against arming teachers because from a liability standpoint a crime of omission is much easier to defend than a crime of commission. A parent is not likely to get too far suing a school system for failing to protect children from a mass murderer. If a teacher carries a weapon with the approval of the school system and has a negligent discharge, or hits an innocent bystander, the sky is the limit in how far a parent might collect in a lawsuit against the school system that approved arming the teacher. Nobody will think of suing the individual teacher, who made the mistake, because they won't have significant assets. Even small rural school systems have budgets that run into the millions, and the salaries for the top people in administrative positions, who rarely have contact with children, are very good. School systems will never risk their financial position for the sake of children.

The only way to have an armed presence in a school is for an outside agency such as a police force to come in, and for that agency to accept all of the liabilities for a bad shoot or an accident. Police agencies have experience in defending themselves against the mistakes of their personnel in armed encounters. School systems don't, and they will see no profit in assuming such a position.

It is not an anti-gun position that motivates school systems, although that is often enough present, so much as it is an anti-liability position.

[PawPaw]

Originally Posted by jimbob86

All emotions aside, I think a better outcome could have been realized at Sandy Hook had the Principal, Dawn Hochsprung, confronted the murderer with near -supersonic jacketed hollow points, instead of harsh words.

That's actually the argument I make every time I'm asked the question, and as I've been a school resource officer for the past eleven years, I get that question often.

Mrs. Hochsprung was a hero in the last seconds of her life, and while I can't pretend to know her thoughts, I'm pretty sure that as she went down the hall to confront the shooter, I bet she wished she had a shotgun.

We gunnies are big about scenarios, second-guessing, and "what if" type discussions. That's all well and good. Any educator in the United States who doesn't know Dawn Hochsprung's name should hang their head in abject shame, and should "what-if" the last seconds of Dawn's life to come to a complete understanding of guns and schools. There's a lesson there if they're willing to learn it.

[jimbob86]

Any educator in the United States who doesn't know Dawn Hochsprung's name should hang their head in abject shame, and should "what-if" the last seconds of Dawn's life to come to a complete understanding of guns and schools. There's a lesson there if they're willing to learn it.

The lesson has been ignored before:

Get your Google-Fu on and search Liviu Librescu.


It is likely this latest lesson, though again paid for with human lives, will be ignored as well, because as 40-82 stated, it is easier (read cheaper) to defend, from a liability standpoint, something you should have done and did not (non-feasance) than something you did wrong (malfeasance) or poorly (misfeasance).

[Tinner666]

Before Clinton declared schools to be 'Safe Shooter Zones', I knew several teachers that carried firearms to school. Most kept them in the auto, but I knew of a couple that had pistols in purses or elsewhere.

[zxcvbob]

Bob, we're not sure what the origin or context of that picture actually is. There's strong suspicion that it's not a teacher at all.

That's why I picked a copy of it that didn't have any captions It's a security guard, or a teacher, or a parent volunteer, or a vice principal, or... In any case it's a woman with a rifle watching over a group of schoolchildren, and it's not scary and the kids are not panicking and nobody seems to be in any danger.

[presumably it was taken in Israel]

[Tom Servo]

All emotions aside, I think a better outcome could have been realized at Sandy Hook had the Principal, Dawn Hochsprung, confronted the murderer with near -supersonic jacketed hollow points, instead of harsh words.

I don't disagree.

Now, tell me how we can convince a legislator or a school board this. So far, nobody's had any luck.

[FireForged]

I have seen that photo around the internet and although I have no idea how accurate it is, the caption always read something like : "school fieldtrip in Israel". If you google [Israeli Teacher M1 Carbine], the photo will appear from different sources. Still, I have no idea about the accuracy of that information.

[jmr40]

I retired in 2010 after teaching 30 years. I know a lot of teachers who would carry if given the opportunity. I "strongly suspect" a lot of teachers keep a firearm in their car anyway. They apply "don't ask, don't tell" principle. None of the principals I worked for would have said a word even if they knew. Of the last 2 I worked under one was a Major in a USMC reserve unit, the other had been in the Army reserves earlier in his career. In 30 years of teaching I never worked for a principal who was not an active shooter and hunter.

Depending on the state you live in it is not illegal to have a gun at school. Here in GA a parent dropping off or picking up students can legally have a gun in their cars. The way the law reads they cannot park on school property, but as long as they just pass through they are legal.

Arming teachers does present problems. One concern I would have is when LE enter a building and confront an armed individual. Is it a legally armed teacher, or one of the shooters? That is an issue that would have to be addressed.

On the other hand you can make a strong argument that just knowing that a few, unnamed teachers are armed, would go a long way toward preventing such a thing in the first place.

While not ideal, I'd at least like to see a few firearms and some type of identifying vest easily recognized by local LE locked in secure areas around the school where trained teachers had access. It might not stop everything, but might limit damage.

Of course making it LEGAL for those firearms stored in vehicles would do almost the same thing. That could be done if teachers were to go through the training and were certified LE. I have a friend who did just that. He was a sworn deputy who worked summers and weekends in LE. He has since retired as a teacher and works full time now in LE. It was perfectly legal for him to carry at school.

[g.willikers]

If legal liability concerns are a major obstacle to teachers being armed, why not just provide those who choose to carry a gun in the school with their own insurance coverage?

[Double Naught Spy]

I dont hear anyone being concerned about criminals taking away pistols from police officers although it does happen and is a concern.

Well then run teachers through the police academy and get them certified as cops and then maybe you won't hear anyone being concerned about criminals taking away pistols from them.

There will always be concerns. There are concerns that student shooters will take out SROs and take their weapons.

If you are unaware of concerns being voiced about guns being taken from cops, then you aren't paying attention to the correct information sources. Firearms retention makes up a sizable amount of training in various forms. In fact, weapon retention has become such as issue that most departments require special retention holsters for their street cops.

-----------------------------------

Mrs. Hochsprung was a hero in the last seconds of her life, and while I can't pretend to know her thoughts, I'm pretty sure that as she went down the hall to confront the shooter, I bet she wished she had a shotgun.

Or maybe her thoughts were how all guns should have been banned long ago as evidenced by what is happening right in front of her. Noting that you can't know her thoughts and then stating what you think her thoughts were is a bit disingenuous, isn't it?

However, if you want to take that route of argument about how they would have liked to have had guns just before they were killed, then you really need to consider how many were anti-gun before the event, how many actually worked toward getting teachers armed before the event, and how many were just typical humans who figured it would never happen to them. That they might have wished to have had a gun is fine. It is a weak argument playing on emotion to try to make a point posthumously. The reality of the matter is that people who are victims of violent crimes who could get a permit to carry a firearm or who could carry firearms at the time of the event may lament that they wished they were armed before the event, but of course, they weren't. They didn't bother. They couldn't be bothered.

The point here is that if we do allow teachers to carry that we can't count on random carry by such folks to actually be present with their guns at the time of an event or that if present, that they will respond. That isn't actually going to be what protects our children. Yeah, I get that it is a first step, but it isn't any sort of reliable protection. The people who are fighting us on this know it as well.

It must be more than that and that is a reality if the goal is actual protection versus just trying to make a political stand. Nobody in the security business would ever suggest to you that random, uncontrolled, and unknown if any folks are armed is a good idea for providing security.

The plan really needs to be more than "Just let our teachers be armed if they want to be so that our children will be better protected." Do I think teacher should have the option to be armed? Sure enough. I think students of legal age should as well, but like with CCW in the public sector, I don't see it as a reliable way to protect the whole of students or whole of the public. As in the non-education sector, there would be schools where lots of teachers are armed and schools where none would be armed. There would be a lot of teachers who qualified to carry, but that don't.

If you are going to allow teachers to be armed and want them to protect the students, then it needs to be a concerted program not where they have the option to be armed, but where teachers are specifically hired or trained for the specific purpose of being SRO-type of response, required to be armed, required to respond, and required to keep up their security training in addition to their education training.

Any educator in the United States who doesn't know Dawn Hochsprung's name should hang their head in abject shame, and should "what-if" the last seconds of Dawn's life to come to a complete understanding of guns and schools. There's a lesson there if they're willing to learn it.

I don't think the education system is based on martyrdom or that mentality. Shaming educators because they don't keep a mental list of teachers killed is pretty silly.

Hochsprung's step daughters have certainly come to what they think is an understanding of guns and schools.
http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2013/0...-gun-violence/

Not only has the event been remembered by the stepdaughters, it has helped solidify them against guns and Amy, is herself, a school teacher. She knows the name of her stepmother and feels that the event is specifically why there needs to be more gun control.

This hero teacher whose name should be equally well known as Hochsprung's name, Roig-DeBellis, also is not convinced that guns are the answer teachers and met with Congress to support gun control bill that failed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1547308

See how this works? What we see as being needed to be resolved by guns is what the opposition sees in a different manner.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One important point - why do folks insist that the teacher be an armed extension of the government - why be a pseudo-cop?

Let teachers meet the state requirement for carry and then carry as they would do in the mall or your particular institution of divinity.

I burn with anger with those who think that teachers who carry must meet some higher standard than they do when they happily carry in the mall or religious institution.

That is being a pawn of Bloomberg and Schumer. You are simply buying into the anti position. You are not a friend of the RKBA.

Next, legislation that allows school carry simply denies liability risk for the school based on an action of a teacher who has a permit.

The standard should be - do you have a permit or license issued by your state?

If you don't agree with this, then you shouldn't carry as I don't know what kind of gun clown you are in the mall.

Some of the statements in these sort of threads would be wonderful to read to the TX legislature as support against school carry and carry in general.

If you don't like what I said - that's too bad. I'm spend my time in an institution that a nut would chose to kill tens of young people. I'm supposed to be a human shield or IPad throwing kamekaze. But you can babble about 45 vs 9mm and wander around in public, crowded settings.

[PawPaw]

Hochsprung's step daughters have certainly come to what they think is an understanding of guns and schools.

Interesting link, and thanks for that. However, I didn't see a single thing about what those folks thought about guns and schools. They're evidently against gun violence, but that's an easy position. Heck, I'm against gun violence.

This hero teacher whose name should be equally well known as Hochsprung's name, Roig-DeBellis, also is not convinced that guns are the answer teachers and met with Congress to support gun control bill that failed.

Again, thanks for the link, but after reading it, I didn't see a thing that says she doesn't think guns are the answer. We might reasonably infer that, but I didn't find it in the linked article.

There are concerns that student shooters will take out SROs and take their weapons.

That's a concern that we saw early on, but I'm not convinced that it's valid, or that there are any data points to support it. And, yeah, we use retention holsters. It makes sense to use retention holsters, both in open carry and concealed carry. I wouldn't consider carrying in public with anything less than a Level II, but that's just me. YMMV.

[FireForged]

A man works in a manufacturing plant, he was hired to print labels and he is very good at it. The man has spent 15 years as a label maker and is considered a master. Recently due to some problems, he has been given the additional very important task of quality control. He is given 3 weeks of training so that he has an elementary understanding of how to check cans before they are boxed. Although he has this new responsibility, he is still expected to make the labels which requires him to be in the printing room 98% of the time. If something happens and there is a clatter.. he is alerted and runs out to check the cans. If there is a problem he deals with it as best he can then goes back to making labels. The man puts little to no effort into the quality control aspect of his new very important job simply because most of the time, nothing goes wrong. He focuses on making labels which is what he knows best and realizes that the labels must be made and he has no option to ignore label making. If a person is designing a quality control plan, is this a good one?

Even if the master label maker is a former quality control expert, how much time can he/she put into the task of closely inspecting the cans to identify problems and mitigate disaster? Very little. How important is the task of quality control, how much are you willing to spend and is it worthy of singular attention of someone who is a professional in that specific field.


I do not have a personal objection to arming the law abiding but I simply think that there are better more effective options than arming teachers. I would prefer that danger be detected early as possible to afford it being confronted well away from those being protected. To me, the question in my mind is who is the most effective person to carry out the protective function.. a protector who's sole responsibility is to protect or a Teacher who although may be very capable.. is asked to wear multiple hats and is primarily focused on teaching.

[Double Naught Spy]

Interesting link, and thanks for that. However, I didn't see a single thing about what those folks thought about guns and schools. They're evidently against gun violence, but that's an easy position. Heck, I'm against gun violence.

They are NOT supporting arming teachers, are they? Not at all.

Now the word gun makes me sick.

Now, I feel the word “gun” in the pit of my stomach. It is no longer an abstract concept; instead, it has weight and heft to it. It has become tangible. And ugly.

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2013/0...-gun-violence/

Yeah, I don't think they are our supporters. Maybe you just missed the clues?

There is a lot more information there against guns than you stating about what the principal was wanting a shotgun before she died. Bottom line is that you have absolutely no way to know that and so creating a statement supportive of your cause to attribute to a deceased person is completely without merit. It would be nice to know that the principal reached some form of pro-gun enlightenment and that it would be even nicer if such a thought could be shared with us, but that is and will always remain an unknown. However, just because she was killed with a gun doesn't in any way imply or indicate that any of her last thoughts were that she wanted a gun.

Some people may want them and some won't. That is reality. You just can't say for certain who would or would not have that inclination. Some victims of gun crimes arm themselves. Others like Giffords and Brady take the opposite stance.

Again, thanks for the link, but after reading it, I didn't see a thing that says she doesn't think guns are the answer. We might reasonably infer that, but I didn't find it in the linked article.

No, it said...

Like many other Sandy Hook parents, Barden has kept up a punishing schedule over the last year, traveling to Washington to meet with lawmakers to support a gun law that stalled in the U.S. Senate

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...#ixzz2o92uGz6l

That wasn't the "Arm the Teachers" law in the Senate, was it? Nope. It does not tell us her thoughts, but it does tell us her actions and they were not supportive of arming more people. She has done several interviews. I can't find any where she expresses a desire to have had a gun that day.

That's a concern that we saw early on, but I'm not convinced that it's valid, or that there are any data points to support it.

I don't think it is valid either, but it is most definitely a hurdle that had to be cleared and will have to be cleared on the teacher issue. It is akin to the "blood in the streets" argument for CCW. That there are no data points to support it does not mean that it isn't a political problem, however.

[TimSr]

Pretty much all of the objections to allowing CCW teachers to carry on the job (falsely characterized as "arming teachers") are the same objections that were used against general CCW. I believe that they will continue to fade as more and more schools allow it, and as the irrational fears never materialize.

Nearly all of these incidents involve shooters waltzing in unchallenged and systematically shooting victims as though its a shooting gallery. Preventing the initial carnage is very difficult, but 99% of the victims wait seconds, several minutes, or more while hearing shot after shot in other rooms. A teacher need not carry to have immediate access. A biometric lock box securely anchored in each class room may be an interim compromise, to alleviate all the fears about unlikely accidents as a result of carrying. Those teachers who are qualified may bring their weapon and put it in the box in their classroom. In case their individual hand or finger opens the box. No other person has access. Every classroom has such a box. Nobody knows which ones are empty.

As in my home, I would not want to lug a gun around in the classroom all day for that 1 in a million chance I might need it, but to have one available, that is secured from unauthorized users would a no brainer to me, and far safer than in a purse or briefcase.

[johnelmore]

I dont mean to make anyone angry about teachers having to meet a higher standard. I believe having the teachers meet a higher standard would put the disbelievers more at ease and be the most responsible decision to make. I want there to be the least chance of something bad happening as a result of a lack of training or because the wrong person had a firearm.

Teachers should meet a higher standard armed or unarmed in any event. They should have a thorough background check just like police officers to work in the school. That said, I dont believe teachers are required to have that same thorough check.

As well teachers should go through a self defense class taught by a qualified professional instructor who has studied these situations and given supplemental training every 6 months. Is any self defense training being provided now besides lock the door and get under a desk?

In my mind, its all about hardening the target in the most responsible way and to satisfy the disbelievers.

[Tom Servo]

I believe having the teachers meet a higher standard would put the disbelievers more at ease and be the most responsible decision to make

Unfortunately, it won't do much to assuage their fears. Their core objections won't be swept aside by a few (to them) meager concessions.

Now, having optional self-defense training available to teachers would be a good step either way.

[Sparks1957]

They should have a thorough background check just like police officers to work in the school. That said, I dont believe teachers are required to have that same thorough check.

Well, here in Vermont I didn't get a teaching license until I was fingerprinted and subjected to a thorough FBI background check. I can't speak for other states' practices.

The majority of teachers would be most unwilling to carry, but a few of us would be.

[FireForged]

Should a professional driver who drives others around as an occupation, have to meet a higher standard training than joe citizen driving his daily to the grocery? Sure

Should a professional pilot who transports people commercially as a occupation have a higher standard to training than joe citizen pilot in his piper? Sure

Should the Capt of a luxury liner be expected to have a higher standard of training as compared to me in my 13' bass boat? Sure


So why not expect a person who is given the charge of protecting the lives others as part of their occupational duties to be held to a greater standard of training than joe citizen perusing his private endeavors? A occupational professional and a layman are two different things.