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Old March 29, 2018, 11:56 AM   #51
Pep in CA
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I don't want to get into a long semantical debate about what is pointing and what is aiming. I will just say, to me, if I'm focusing on the front sight, I'm aiming. If I'm focusing on the target, I'm pointing. Good enough for me.
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Old March 29, 2018, 12:32 PM   #52
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The OPs question was about defensive pistol shooting. On a square range yes the sights are useful for aimining and alignment to the target and shooting tiny groups at 25 yards but in a defensive situation you are not really using them.
Well, I can’t speak for everyone; but I do use them in force on force. As you’ve pointed out, it doesn’t take any great skill to hit a 20”x40” target at 3-5 yards. You can index the pistol very coarsely and you’ll make hits if you don’t gank the trigger. That means that if I at 3-5yds, I had better make a good hit on the upper central neevous system or I am likely to get shot. Making a fast hit somewhere just means we’ll both get shot.

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Try this drill next time you are at the range. Set a target up at 5-7 yards. Take some black electrical tape and tape off your sights. Obscure the rear and the front sight post. Draw the gun and fire. I am willing to bet that your group will not be much different then if you were looking at that front post.
Yes, we can both do this. I imagine we both have tens of thousands of good repetitions such that our muscle memory is very good at indexing for close range targets even when we can’t see the sights. The OP is wanting to transition from 25yd slow fire to practical shooting. His stated next step is going to be double-taps from low ready. My guess is he still has some time to put in on developing the muscle memory to index a pistol without looking at the sights.

Being able to confirm his index prior to pulling the trigger is going to make the process of getting good repetitions in faster and with less frustration. It will also let him know if he has grip or trigger control issues.
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Old March 29, 2018, 12:38 PM   #53
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At my next pistol practice session, I'm going start from low ready (holsters are not allowed), bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target. (Rapid fire is not allowed but double taps are). If my shots miss, I will go back to some marksmanship practice, then back and forth until I can hit 6" targets defensively.
Instead of bringing up the gun to look at the target, push the gun out away from you in the high chest. As you are doing this, look at the sight alignment and confirm it. Switch to a focus on the target and focus on the smallest detail you can ID (like a 1” orange dot in the middle of the 6” area you want to hit) and break the trigger as the gun is fully extended.

Try it slow first, with an eye towards accuracy. When you have accuracy where you want it, start doing it faster until accuracy begins to fall apart.

I think you have the right idea though as far as working on practical skills given your range constrictions. And do the laser range! Great training tool!
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Old March 29, 2018, 12:42 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by WVsig
...Pull the trigger as fast as you can without moving the gun.
...
And IME that's what folks have a tough time doing -- pulling the trigger to make the gun fire without moving the gun. Whether one aims or points, if the index of the gun on target is disturbed by the act of making the gun fire, the bullet will not go where you want it to go. The bullet will go to wherever the front sight is (wherever the gun is pointing) when the bullet leaves the barrel.

So when you write:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WVsig
....everytime I go to the range and see the pistols targets that looks like they were shot by a blind man with a shotgun I will think of you anf assume 99% of them were using their sights in perfect alignment, aiming and jerking the hell out of that trigger....
you're exactly right. Those folks haven't learned how to make the gun go "bang" without moving it. They are jerking or mashing the trigger in some way.

Part of the challenge of teaching is finding ways to explain to someone how to do that -- make the gun fire without disturbing its index on target -- in ways that the student can translate into action. Many of us have found that talking about and demonstrating the surprise break and the compressed surprise break generally does that.

Even as Rob shows (at 2:18) in the video you linked to, trying to fire the gun "right now" jerks the gun off target. As he describes it, that happens because the student is aiming and then tries to make the gun fire at exactly that instant when everything is lined up.

But that doesn't necessarily explain to the student how to go about pulling the trigger without moving the gun.
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Old March 29, 2018, 12:45 PM   #55
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The OP chiming in again. .. My question wasn't about marksmanship training. It was about tactical defensive handgun training.
That's how I took the question.

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At my next pistol practice session, I'm going start from low ready (holsters are not allowed), bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target. (Rapid fire is not allowed but double taps are). If my shots miss, I will go back to some marksmanship practice, then back and forth until I can hit 6" targets defensively.
While many people do practice at seven yard targets and have for years, and while that distance is coincidentally the distance that an average attacker can cover during a nominal one-and-one-half second draw time, I do not think that practicing at seven yards is necessarily a good idea.

Nor do I think that working to hit six inch targets "defensively" is a good general goal.

What we need to strive for is a balance of speed and precision that will enable us to consistently shoot as rapidly as possible with combat accuracy at plausible distances, in time to stop the threat.

Most of the time, that means putting multiple shots quickly into an area about the size of the upper chest.

While one should be able to handle a target at seven yards, that's on the long end of the likely range--think in terms of 10 or 12 feet. We can go into that in more depth if you like.

I happened to have the opportunity to attend a two day I.C.E. PDN course in Combat Focus Shooting within driving distance a few years ago. The instructor was Rob Pincus.

I had been shooting handguns for quite a number of decades, but that was a real eye-opener. We did not shoot at a target in front of us at which we had planned to shoot. We did not shoot at a target upon a signal--rather, we looked for, identified, and turned to immediately address a target somewhere within the multi-sided berm, immediately after it was described to us. We did not "practice" at different distances--rather, we fired at whatever distance was required for whatever target was specified. Those distinctions are important.

We moved off-line while drawing. We were to "use" the sights only when needed for longer distances.

Basic grip and trigger control was taught for those who needed it.

As I said, a real eye-opener, and an excellent investment.

Most ranges do not allow that kind of thing, of course.

If you can possibly avail yourself of that training, by all means do so. If not, contact I.C.E. PDN about some of their home training course materials.

You can do your drawing from concealment while moving at home with an empty gun. A good Airsoft gun may prove useful for some of the other exercises.

Did that make me a defensive shooting expert? No, though it certainly did help. What it did not do is address shooting at multiple moving targets, and provide for shoot/no-shoot scenarios with innocents on scene. For that, one meeds FoF training with Simunitions, and that is not available until people have been through quite a bit of training. I am no longer physically able to aspire to that.

One other thing--there are some high-tech interactive laser simulation facilities in some places that can be set up for realistic scenarios, including shoot/no-shoot, that will tell you whether you fired and hit timely.

Some time back there was a video in which Rob Pincus demonstrated one, and he said it was so realistic that it got his adrenaline flowing.

Good luck in your endeavors.
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Old March 29, 2018, 01:05 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Pep in CA
...bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target. (Rapid fire is not allowed but double taps are). If my shots miss, I will go back to some marksmanship practice, then back and forth until I can hit 6" targets defensively....
First, going back and forth is a good idea. One way to increase speed while preserving accuracy is to push yourself to the point when accuracy begins to deteriorate, then back off a bit, and then push yourself again.

As to what is acceptable "defensive" accuracy, remember that in a real violent encounter, under great stress your performance will suffer. Louis Awerbuck always pushed his students to be accurate and looked for 4 inch groups at fighting speeds.
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Old March 29, 2018, 01:27 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post

I happened to have the opportunity to attend a two day I.C.E. PDN course in Combat Focus Shooting within driving distance a few years ago. The instructor was Rob Pincus.
His course is on my list. He seems to do a lot more of the 1 day courses these days than the 2 day. I would prefer the 2 day.
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Old March 29, 2018, 01:31 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
Well, I can’t speak for everyone; but I do use them in force on force. As you’ve pointed out, it doesn’t take any great skill to hit a 20”x40” target at 3-5 yards. You can index the pistol very coarsely and you’ll make hits if you don’t gank the trigger. That means that if I at 3-5yds, I had better make a good hit on the upper central neevous system or I am likely to get shot. Making a fast hit somewhere just means we’ll both get shot.
I am not talking about just hitting a 20" x 40" target I am talking about A zone hits. I am not talking single hole groups like one can shoot slow firing but all in the area the size of a grapefruit. I imagine you knew that and I imagine you can do it.
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Old March 29, 2018, 01:51 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Pep in CA View Post
The OP chiming in again. Thanks for the replies so far, although a lot of them seem to, well, miss the mark. I tend to agree with WVsig. My question wasn't about marksmanship training. It was about tactical defensive handgun training.

I've been practicing for 2 years after taking basic, intermediate, and advanced handgun classes. My focus has been on mechanincs and marksmanship, which are important but not the reason I puchased a pistol. I purchased a pistol to stop threats.

In post #45, WVsig hits the mark, IMO, when he said "at some point the mindset and the skillset development changes." That is the point where I'm at now and the reason I asked the original question.

At my next pistol practice session, I'm going start from low ready (holsters are not allowed), bring the gun up while looking at the target (7yds.) and fire 2 quick shots at a 6" target. (Rapid fire is not allowed but double taps are). If my shots miss, I will go back to some marksmanship practice, then back and forth until I can hit 6" targets defensively.

Again, thanks for the replies.
You say that your range does not allow for "rapid fire". What do they consider rapid fire? Would 10 rounds in ten seconds be considered rapid fire?

If they would allow it if I were you I would shoot "The Test" which is a drill developed by Larry Vickers. 10 rounds in 10 seconds at 10 yards all in the black of a B8 25 yard bulleye center. The nice thing about this drill is that you do not need to do it from the draw. You shoot it from the low or high ready.

There are 2 ways to score it. Ken Hackathorn scores it by points. All in the black is 100. For every shot outside the X & 10 ring you deduct points. Shot in the 9 put you down 1, 8 down 2 and so on. IF you are off the paper you fail. You need a score of 90 to pass and be under the 10 second limit.

Larry Vickers requires everything to be in the black to pass and be under 10 seconds. Anything outside the black and you fail.

You can also do the half test which is the same format but with 5 rounds in 5 seconds. KH says it in the video but I will repeat it for those who don't bother to watch it. If he could recommend shooting one and only one drill to improve your self defense shooting "The Test" would be that drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIl9...youtu.be&t=168
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Old March 29, 2018, 02:34 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WVsig
....If they would allow it if I were you I would shoot "The Test" which is a drill developed by Larry Vickers. 10 rounds in 10 seconds at 10 yards all in the black of a B8 25 yard bulleye center. The nice thing about this drill is that you do not need to do it from the draw. You shoot it from the low or high ready.....
That's a new one for me, and it sounds like an excellent test of a balance of practical speed and accuracy.

My instructor group has exclusive use of a range once a month. So we use it as an opportunity to maintain our skills. We'll give it a try next month.

Thanks for the tip.
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Old March 29, 2018, 03:18 PM   #61
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After years of shooting at paper targets at varying distances, I signed up for a defensive pistol shoting course put on in St. Louis by the Texas Defensive Shooting folks.

They were in town for some time to train local police forces.

Two or more instructors per student, rotating among students.

The drill was a modified El Presidente exercise--shooting at three metal plates at seven yards.

We started by shooting one paper target. And then it was all about sound.

They recorded the number of hits and the time required, time after time after time.

Most students improved by over 30% in time and 30% in hits in the course of firing about 1,200 rounds.

I was amazed with the rapidity of fire for which they strove, and by how unprepared I was for that at the beginning, even with long years of handgun experience.

I left thinking that I had learned a lot about defensive shooing.

Wrong. What I learned was how to shoot rapidly with control.

But from that standpoint, it was very worth while.

When I took the I.C.E. course some time later, we fired at paper. The training was designed to build upon skills in a layered manner.

At the outset, the instructor looked at the targets. "You are shooting too fast", or "you are shooting too slowly"--that based on groups, and aimed at teaching how to achieve the right balance of speed and precision.

There's nothing wrong with shooing ten shots in ten seconds, but consider this: a defender may have two seconds available, and it may take several shots to hit anything vital inside the assailant's body.

One way or the other, it is important to acquire the skills for much more rapid continued fire.

Watch videos of the current FBI training drills to get an idea of what it involves. Or watch Mike Seeklander on some episodes of The Best Defense.
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Old March 29, 2018, 03:22 PM   #62
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Under 30-feet, I point and hit. Over that, I aim and (hopefully) hit.
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Old March 29, 2018, 04:18 PM   #63
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Quote:
A good skeet or trap shooter does not aim,
They absolutely DO aim!!! That's what the bead is for.
Absolutely FALSE. Any clay target shooter who is successful has both eyes on the target-the best remove the beads entirely. Aiming a shotgun at a moving target is the best way to miss behind every single time.
Aiming a pistol at a static paper target is one thing; trying to aim at something moving and bobbing is entirely different, your focus needs to be on the target with your sight in your peripheral vision - you're not Bullseye shooting here.
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Old March 29, 2018, 04:36 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
After years of shooting at paper targets at varying distances, I signed up for a defensive pistol shoting course put on in St. Louis by the Texas Defensive Shooting folks.

They were in town for some time to train local police forces.

Two or more instructors per student, rotating among students.

The drill was a modified El Presidente exercise--shooting at three metal plates at seven yards.

We started by shooting one paper target. And then it was all about sound.

They recorded the number of hits and the time required, time after time after time.

Most students improved by over 30% in time and 30% in hits in the course of firing about 1,200 rounds.

I was amazed with the rapidity of fire for which they strove, and by how unprepared I was for that at the beginning, even with long years of handgun experience.

I left thinking that I had learned a lot about defensive shooing.

Wrong. What I learned was how to shoot rapidly with control.

But from that standpoint, it was very worth while.

When I took the I.C.E. course some time later, we fired at paper. The training was designed to build upon skills in a layered manner.

At the outset, the instructor looked at the targets. "You are shooting too fast", or "you are shooting too slowly"--that based on groups, and aimed at teaching how to achieve the right balance of speed and precision.

There's nothing wrong with shooing ten shots in ten seconds, but consider this: a defender may have two seconds available, and it may take several shots to hit anything vital inside the assailant's body.

One way or the other, it is important to acquire the skills for much more rapid continued fire.

Watch videos of the current FBI training drills to get an idea of what it involves. Or watch Mike Seeklander on some episodes of The Best Defense.
The Test is a training tool. Nothing more nothing less. Drills like The Test are a good gauge to see where you are. The avg shooter even on this forum is like the OP. They are not sure where they are and where they need to be. They are looking for ways to improve not to listen to stories about my training or your training experience. The Test is a very good gauge of your trigger control at speed and at the same time provides a training tool that can be used at almost all ranges. Many ranges are like the OPs that restrict things like drawing from the holster or shooting at multiple targets. That IMHO is what makes this drill so useful and effective.

If run it and you are all over the target under the 10 seconds then it tells you that you lack trigger control at the speed you are shooting. You need to work on trigger control before you go faster. You need to slow down and shoot a clean target.

If you can shoot a clean passing target but it takes you longer than 10 seconds it tells you that you have decent trigger control at a slower speed. You now need to learn to do the same thing faster. You need to learn to run the gun faster. Maybe stop aiming so much.

If you can shoot a clean target in 10 seconds then you work to shoot it in 9. Then 8. I watched an amazing shooter in my training course shoot it in sub 7 all in the black with a score of 98. He dropped 2 shots into the 9 ring in the black.

No one said that you could not shoot The Test faster than 10 seconds. Larry Vickers and KH just set the bar where they did because in their experience if you can shoot the test and pass you have mastered enough trigger control at speed to to deliver defensive handgun accuracy. Ernest Langdon likes the drill as well. He has a video where he shoots if from the draw in 7 and change.

Where at any point did anyone say that 10 shots in 10 seconds was simulation a gun fight? Your need to be correct and correct others is unnecessary in this instance. I was simply offering up a training tool that could help the OP. You clearly missed that point and needed to prove once again that you are "right" which again is why I avoid this part of the forum because its devolves into a pissing contest.
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Last edited by WVsig; March 29, 2018 at 06:11 PM.
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Old March 29, 2018, 05:53 PM   #65
Pep in CA
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WVsig, I'm almost sorry to have lured you into this thread. So much nitpicking and self-promoting point scoring involved. On the other hand, you've been the most helpful to me so far. So thanks.

And to answer your question about my range's rules, they allow 1 second intervals between shots and double taps. Anything faster is considered rapid fire and not allowed. So the Test drill that you suggested is within the bounds of the range rules and I will consider it for my training going forward.

Cheers.
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Old March 29, 2018, 06:12 PM   #66
Pep in CA
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Originally Posted by FITASC
Absolutely FALSE. Any clay target shooter who is successful has both eyes on the target-the best remove the beads entirely. Aiming a shotgun at a moving target is the best way to miss behind every single time.
Aiming a pistol at a static paper target is one thing; trying to aim at something moving and bobbing is entirely different, your focus needs to be on the target with your sight in your peripheral vision - you're not Bullseye shooting here.
Bravo. I agree.
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Old March 29, 2018, 07:06 PM   #67
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In the last three years I've taken about three dozen defensive handgun classes, and practiced dry-firing at home I don't know how many tens of thousands of reps, but I'm not an expert at anything in the realm of handguns. I'm just another average guy that's trying to find ways to get more proficient with his sidearm, so take this with a grain of salt.

IMHO, it's both. With the proficiency that I've reached since I really started trying to become a better trained defensive handgunner, I find that to a certain extent I'm aiming (looking for and consciously using the front sight) but I'm also simply pointing.

I don't know if I can explain this in a way that will make sense to anyone, but here goes.

During a drill/exercise whether I'm coming out of the holster or just pointing in from low-ready, what I'm looking for is the front sight to come up into my field of view. What I'm looking at is the portion of the target that I want to drive bullets into. Once the front sight rises up into that target zone that I'm focused on, I press the trigger.

I do not look for the front sight, and I don't try to focus on the front sight. It appears at the bottom of my field of view, and my hands automatically matriculate it towards the area that I was looking at. When it gets close enough, bang. I'm not looking for a perfect sight picture, or even a stable sight picture. I'm just looking for the front sight to get near what I want to hit.

The caveat here is that I've reached that competence level where I have a lot of confidence that the bullet will strike within two or three inches of the point on the target that I'm looking at.

Actually there's a second caveat: for me at my current level of ability, this works pretty well inside ten yards. At 15 yards I have to actually focus on the front sight to get hits close to where I want them. In other words, beyond 10 yards, I'm aiming.

Inside ten yards, I'm kind of doing a combination of both.

Here's a kind of example of what I'm trying to say. In this first video from about three years ago, I'm aiming each shot, hence the hesitations between shots:

https://youtu.be/S0_3EXHxgqY

In this second video from about 18 months ago, I'm pointing/aiming, allowing me to shoot faster but with nearly the same accuracy.

https://youtu.be/_5LxgTksxEk

In the second half of this video I'm just pointing for all three shots:
https://www.facebook.com/richard.kim...4782379810258/

These days I can go a bit faster than the second video pretty much every time, but it didn't come all at once or even in a graduated manner. It was more hit a little plateau here, then gain a bit a few weeks/months later, somehow mess things up for a while, then gain some ground , and so on. it's only in the last few months that I realized that I'm not really looking AT the front sight anymore. Rather, I'm looking at a specific point on the target and the front sight comes to meet it. Hopefully.

Hopefully some of that made sense.

Last edited by Rangerrich99; March 29, 2018 at 07:43 PM.
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Old March 29, 2018, 08:16 PM   #68
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And to answer your question about my range's rules, they allow 1 second intervals between shots and double taps. Anything faster is considered rapid fire and not allowed.
That is true in several of the ranges around here.

In others there is no limitation on rapidity of fire.

But even in those, movement and drawing from a holster are not possible.

My gun club allowed fast draw, movement, and rapid fire, but physical limitations have forced me to drop the membership.

What might you do? That has already been suggested.

Look into IDPA competition somewhere that is acceptable to you.

There are numerous reasons why that does not constitute defensive training per se, but it will allow you to participate in rapid fire, shooting at multiple targets, and movement.
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Old March 29, 2018, 08:52 PM   #69
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It depends on the level of speed and accuracy required for the shot.
At extreme close range, with a relatively large target, faster hits can be obtained with point shooting. As ranges increase or the desired target gets smaller, aiming becomes more effective.

For example, on an IPSC target at 3 yards or less, point shooting is generally faster and accurate enough. For the same target at 7 yards or more, point shooting is generally not effective to get A zone hits.
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Old March 29, 2018, 08:57 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by raimius View Post
It depends on the level of speed and accuracy required for the shot.
At extreme close range, with a relatively large target, faster hits can be obtained with point shooting. As ranges increase or the desired target gets smaller, aiming becomes more effective.

For example, on an IPSC target at 3 yards or less, point shooting is generally faster and accurate enough. For the same target at 7 yards or more, point shooting is generally not effective to get A zone hits.
Refresh my memory how large is the IPSC A zone?
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Old March 29, 2018, 11:31 PM   #71
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Aiming a shotgun at a moving target is the best way to miss behind every single time.
I agree. one doesn't aim at the moving target, one aims where the target will be when the shot gets there.
Quote:
Aiming a pistol at a static paper target is one thing; trying to aim at something moving and bobbing is entirely different, your focus needs to be on the target with your sight in your peripheral vision
Again, I agree.

Quote:
- you're not Bullseye shooting here.
no, its not, but its still aiming. Its done differently, but its still aiming.
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Old March 30, 2018, 10:06 AM   #72
Jim Watson
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I find that if you shoot a bit, you can train in the necessary precision of aim. Working inward, you can go from front sight centered in rear to "shotgunning" over the front, to indexing down the top of the gun, to the gun just in the field of view, down to "retention". It used to be common for gunzine writers to set specified range gates for each level of precision, I know Bill Jordan did. But I think it is an individual thing to be learned. Being that I am The Worst Shot On The Internet ©, I have to transition to more precise aim at closer range than the Cool Guys, but the continuum is there.
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Old March 30, 2018, 10:18 AM   #73
Black Wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I don't agree. Its one of the oldest and biggest lies about shotguns, that they aren't aimed, just pointed, in order to hit the target.

If you don't aim, you won't hit your target.


They absolutely DO aim!!! That's what the bead is for.

The difficulty in discussing the matter, and where people who aren't shooters get mislead, is that the aiming of a shotgun doesn't use the same kind of sights as rifles and pistols. It's still aiming,

Yes, it seems like nothing more than pointing, but think about it, it IS aiming.

Trouble is, many people hear "pointing" and think they can disregard aiming.

Maybe you define it differently, but for me, when you sight down the barrel, whether there is a bead, a front & rear sight, or no sight but the plane of the barrel, its aiming. What varies is the degree of difficulty, speed, and precision but its all aiming.

Pointing is what you do when you can't see the barrel, such as shooting a handgun from the hip.

Of course, there are experts who use the term "pointing" to mean anytime one is not fully and properly utilizing the sights. So it can be rather confusing.

As others have mentioned, the majority of people who have been in gunfights, and got hits, say they "saw" the front sight, and used it to aim with. Not the careful, precise lining up of front sight, rear sight and target, just a "flash picture" of the front sight on their target, and firing.

this is something that can be tested with a simple laser pointer (or a laser boresight, etc.) Fasten a laser pointer so its in line with the barrel. EMPTY GUN!!! EMPTY GUN!!! and, did I mention EMPTY GUN!!!?...

use a sheet of paper on the wall as your target. Present (point) the gun at the target, (laser off) without looking at the sights at all. Look only at the target. point your gun, then "freeze" in place (this is the toughest part, keeping the gun where you pointed it) then turn on the laser and see where the dot is, compared to your target.

Do this a few times. Then do the same thing, but look at the front sight when you aim. When your front sight is on that target, look where the laser dot is, its also on the target.

My 'point" here is that if you can see the muzzle (front sight or bead) you ARE aiming (whether you realize it, or not). If you can't, you are pointing.

Pointing can get hits at very close range. Aiming, even a "flash" aim gets more & better hits than pointing.

I'm sure others will disagree with my use of terms, but that's the way I see it.
Thank you!

This is exactly where I'm at - can you see the sights, at all? You are aiming! I definitely aim a shotty. I do not aim a single action revolver.

The whole "aim or point?" question (when discussing firing that involves use of the sights) sounds like the old "Do you love me or are you IN love with me?" to which the obvious answer is "shut up an go make me a sandwich"

As far as how much time and effort I devote to "aiming" well that depends on how far away the target is and how quickly I really need to get the shot off. Last range trip, I was doing Mozambique Drills, at 5 yd. I barely allowed the top strap to come into view. As soon as I could see some dots and a strip of steel that looked somewhat in line, I was lettin 'em loose. To me, it ain't so much about how you're doing it (I know some basic fundamentals need to be followed) but rather how MUCH you're doing it. Repetition, burn copious amounts of powder
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Old March 30, 2018, 11:34 AM   #74
WVsig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Wolf View Post
Thank you!

This is exactly where I'm at - can you see the sights, at all? You are aiming! I definitely aim a shotty. I do not aim a single action revolver.

The whole "aim or point?" question (when discussing firing that involves use of the sights) sounds like the old "Do you love me or are you IN love with me?" to which the obvious answer is "shut up an go make me a sandwich"

As far as how much time and effort I devote to "aiming" well that depends on how far away the target is and how quickly I really need to get the shot off. Last range trip, I was doing Mozambique Drills, at 5 yd. I barely allowed the top strap to come into view. As soon as I could see some dots and a strip of steel that looked somewhat in line, I was lettin 'em loose. To me, it ain't so much about how you're doing it (I know some basic fundamentals need to be followed) but rather how MUCH you're doing it. Repetition, burn copious amounts of powder
I could not disagree more. It is not how many rounds you send down range it is the quality of the rounds sent down range. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. You are much better shooting 100 rounds and making every round count then going to the range and sending 500 rounds down range without regard for fundamentals. This is especially true the early you are in the learning curve.

It would be my contention that a lot of the most important parts about shooting a pistol well can be learned and practiced without sending any rounds down range. Your grip, stance, draw and most importantly your trigger control all can be worked on and improved without shooting a round.

Live fire is very important and needs to be done but it should IMHO be done with more than " some basic fundamentals". Make every round count.
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Last edited by WVsig; March 30, 2018 at 11:44 AM.
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Old March 30, 2018, 11:39 AM   #75
Lohman446
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To further the thought above about the quality of practice:

Quote:
“You can practice shooting eight hours a day, but if your technique is wrong, then all you become is very good at shooting the wrong way. Get the fundamentals down and the level of everything you do will rise.”
This was said by Michael Jordan. He was not talking about firearms but the lesson is correct still. I have heard it phrased "Practice does NOT make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect"

Last edited by Lohman446; March 30, 2018 at 11:45 AM.
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