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Old March 15, 2018, 11:31 PM   #51
In The Ten Ring
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For whatever it's worth to others who read this thread (and yes, I realized quite awhile back that there's no chance of changing your mind on this topic)

Well you are right about that because I deal with the benefits of letting people out into traffic, not to mention being let out, at least a couple times a week. Further, you invalidated your own argument with the line I'm not saying people should never do it...

There are so many laws on the books we all commit several felonies a day. Arguing not to let people out into traffic on the basis that "it might cause an accident" is what the gun grabbers say "don't carry a gun, you'll just arm a criminal."

Next time you or any keyboard dissenter here is in a parking lot, wishing to turn right, and a driver in the right lane, passing by at 5 mph stops to let you out, don't be a hypocrite, kindly refuse the gesture. (You won't because no one is going to refuse that and if they say (or type) that they will, they are lying).

For those that like being let out into traffic, try this. It only works with stopped or very slowly moving cars since you need eye contact. Put your hands together in the classic "praying/begging" gesture. Put a look of great sadness/pleading on your face. Move your hands in and out in that classic move. People laugh and then stop to let you out. I learned when I was a salesman that if you can get people to laugh, they are more likely to say "yes." Try it. It's fun and it works. Just don't get killed or kill anyone else while pulling into the lane and prove my critics right.
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Old March 15, 2018, 11:44 PM   #52
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Further, you invalidated your own argument with the line I'm not saying people should never do it...
Not at all. I have been very clear about my thoughts on the topic and re-reading my comments should make it amply obvious that my position is not to "never do it" but rather that people who choose to do it should "be extremely careful". In fact, I posted two sources which explicitly state when it is an acceptable practice and when it is inadvisable.
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Just don't get killed or kill anyone else while pulling into the lane...
Actually letting someone pull into your lane is relatively benign as the two sources I quoted indicate. It is the practice of trying to "...stop traffic to allow people to cross the road..." that is especially dangerous.
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...my critics...
If you want, you can pretend this is all about you. But I can tell you that from my perspective it is not. It is about the person who died out in front of my workplace and about the people who have been injured, and who have had their property damaged as a result of this kind of situation. And most of all, about trying to keep that kind of thing from happening to others.
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Old March 16, 2018, 12:20 AM   #53
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Not about me? Is it about you?

I mean, it clearly does mean a lot to you, enough that this thread has become less about road rage and more about the "dangers and illegality of letting vehicles cross the road and letting others out into traffic" complete with quotes, links, and now an emotional appeal.
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Old March 16, 2018, 12:31 AM   #54
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Is it about you?
No. "It is about the person who died out in front of my workplace and about the people who have been injured, and who have had their property damaged as a result of this kind of situation. And most of all, about trying to keep that kind of thing from happening to others."
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...it clearly does mean a lot to you...
Well, I certainly am opposed to people getting killed, injured and even just getting their cars wrecked. So in that sense, it does.
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...this thread has become less about road rage...
You're certainly welcome to go back to discussing road rage any time.
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Old March 16, 2018, 03:17 AM   #55
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At 4 am, when you fell asleep at 9-30 pm, I think it was at that time!

Random thoughts cross your mind, for instance... The average pedestrian crossing, has white lines, painted on the road? Kind of hard to see.

Canada (I think) and England, had Beacons, mounted on a 4" back and white striped pole, about 8' tall. The beacon is about 2 feet around, yellow in colure, and blinks constantly. It is totally visible for 100s of yards.

It means people cross here! Would this system not work in our City's here in the US of A? A random thought, I get them all the time!
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Old March 16, 2018, 09:43 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Brit
Canada (I think) and England, had Beacons, mounted on a 4" back and white striped pole, about 8' tall. The beacon is about 2 feet around, yellow in colure, and blinks constantly. It is totally visible for 100s of yards.
Would it be easier to teach people not to step out in front of moving cars, trucks and buses? We have small poles (three or four feet high) wrapped in reflective tape set in the middle of the street at some crosswalks.

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Originally Posted by In The Ten Ring
Not about me? Is it about you?

I mean, it clearly does mean a lot to you, enough that this thread has become less about road rage and more about the "dangers and illegality of letting vehicles cross the road and letting others out into traffic" complete with quotes, links, and now an emotional appeal.
As one critic of the idea you've set forth, I make two responsive observations. First, I recognise that your motive is courtesy, a thing good in itself, and surely better than the selfish impatience that can mark other forms of problematic driving. Second, it does mean something to me. I drive a couple of hours a day on average. Inattention, failure to yield while driving in the overtake lane, cellular phone use, road block behaviors, poor lane discipline have all made my commute longer than it needs to be, and can cause road rage in others. I see the value of orderly traffic daily, as well as the cost of its absence.

Your idea of courtesy seems mostly benign and charitable. Can you acknowledge that departing from commonly accepted rules for traffic can cause problems, and isn't appropriate in all environments?

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Old March 16, 2018, 02:42 PM   #57
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Your idea of courtesy seems mostly benign and charitable. Can you acknowledge that departing from commonly accepted rules for traffic can cause problems, and isn't appropriate in all environments?

Thank you...although I might argue I am "totally" benign... LOL I seriously do wish to help others because I feel really good for doing so and I've been burned doing it, still, I keep doing it, so I guess I just don't learn very easily.

I don't see the comparison with cell phone and otherwise distracted driving. Those are things I would never advocate.

Say you, in a hurry as it seems to suggest you often are, are on a two lane road, and a guy in front of you stops, waiting for an opening to turn into a lot on the left side of the road. There is no traffic signal there. Traffic must back up, making everyone wait. Driving off the road to go around the stopped vehicle is illegal although we've all done it. Say for this instance there isn't room to go around. Speed in this area of road and at this time is about 10 mph. You mean to tell me you are fine with waiting minutes, even hours, for that break to appear so the stopped vehicle may turn and traffic flow resume? I doubt it. I think your stress level will go up and up, along with every else's.

No one has advocated stopping in a lane, blocking traffic, when traffic flow speed is brisk. That is rather suicidal, although, the following vehicle has a legal duty to keep enough distance to allow a stop for whatever reason. There is no legal reason to rear-end the guy in front.

I understand a lot of people live in and around cities, where following distances are not kept at a safe interval, where cutting off and cutting into traffic is the norm, and because of the likelihood of being cut off, people follow too closely. Such behavior cannot help but lead to very high stress, fear of, and hate for other drivers. I don't live in such a place, I used to (Charlotte) and I am very glad I left.

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Old March 16, 2018, 03:07 PM   #58
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I understand a lot of people live in and around cities, where following distances are not kept at a safe interval, where cutting off and cutting into traffic is the norm, and because of the likelihood of being cut off, people follow too closely. Such behavior cannot help but lead to very high stress, fear of, and hate for other drivers. I don't live in such a place, I used to (Charlotte) and I am very glad I left.
Right there you have nailed the reason that I don't leave town. I'd rather shove a pineapple sideways than drive to saint louis again. I have anger problems, have had since I was a kid, and if a person has any brains or decency that person works on those problems. One of the options for leveling mood out is to avoid things that cause problems, for example, DRIVING.

In general, people in america revel in their defectiveness. "stupid and proud of it."

One of the things that I heard repeatedly when I was working in the mental health field was "i don't want to take my meds because they make me feel like"

A zombie.
a Different person.
unhappy.

Etc.

The fact is, many of these people like who they are, how they feel, what their habits and so forth are, and surrendering the problems that they have, such as anger or drug problems upsets them. They don't know how to deal with change.

A great way to explain this is that I supposed that almost all road rage incidents are over trivial things that one person with anger problems started in response to something that upset him. Then, every one of those events, unless I'm mistaken, could still have been de-escalated and shut off. being angry and insisting that something be done in response to that anger is what causes them, and having a stubborn pushing match.
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Old March 16, 2018, 11:37 PM   #59
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Right there you have nailed the reason that I don't leave town.

Even a blind hog finds an acorn every so often. Thanks man.

I've heard some bad things about St. Louis....but that's any large city.

When I'd drive down to Charlotte, I'd do my usual 55 mph in the slow lane but as I neared the metropolis, I'd "get my NASCAR on" and start driving like the rest of the morons. "When in Rome...."

It takes a big man to admit he has any sort of problem although I'm not sure I'd admit it online.

You hate driving? See, I love it. It relaxes me. Sometimes I'll drive around for hours, late at night, on rural roads and sometimes I'll get the urge to "explore" and see where X road goes.

Very interesting about the "not taking meds" angle.....surely true for too many.

Most things that get our dander up are very small issues. Two rational people, both that care about others, will always work things out easily. It takes two however....

I think I ran into (or more correctly) "he almost ran into me" with his car.....a guy was coming into a gas station parking lot way too fast and I had to jump out of the way. He yelled obscenities my way. I stayed quiet, went back to my car, and stood ready for action.

About 2005 I was driving home from work and saw a sports car pulled over, top down. I was about to pull over to check on him when I saw a large male (very buff) standing in front of it POUNDING ON THE HOOD WITH HIS FISTS. I didn't see anyone else. That one I didn't stop for but I called it in, making sure the operator knew what the guy was doing!
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Old March 17, 2018, 12:29 AM   #60
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Traffic often gets really congested these days. Like,sitting through the same light three times congested.
If I'm in that mess and someone is trapped in a grocery store parking lot trying to get on the road,I'll give him space.
I was in Denver on I-25 today,interstate hiway about 25 mph.It gets bumper to bumper.I noticed the18 wheeler next to me had his blinker on.He needed to change lanes.I slowed and gave him room he did not have.
Awareness and co-operation is one thing.
But good gravy,know what you are supposed to do and do it.
I don't want to play the "After you..." game. Its not a courtesy if you are wasting someone elses time. Its incompetence.
Or some weird ego and control trip.. True,I don't appreciate those who consider a turn signal an invitation to cut me off,but please do not do something odd that requires me to figure out what you are doing,read your mind,then trust you. I can manage. Don't slow,don't stop,don't hold up traffic for me. Just GO. Really. I'll make it.
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Old March 20, 2018, 09:03 AM   #61
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Things that can go wrong.

Visiting England, many years ago, I lived in Toronto then. Gassing up my rental VW fantastic little car! Stick shift.

Next to me, at another pump, a Jag XK? Sports car, long, low sports car.

CLANG! from under the hood (Bonnet) we both looked at each other, he lifted up the hood. A part of the spring system, to help lift this long heavy hood, had sheared a pin! And dropped down, and locked the steering. It took two of us to lift the hood.

The other driver sat on the island, white as a sheet. "I just came off the M6, and I was really speeding!" If he had been on one of those bends, placed there on purpose, to stop motorists falling asleep? I know, strange idea.
But he would have been dead!

And we get upset at a driver letting so one in?
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Old March 20, 2018, 11:40 AM   #62
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Road rage is very real, especially down here in South Florida. Ego is the biggest contributor to problems and being the cooler and bigger person will save you from a lot of problems. I have had my fair share of near incidents and am lucky that they never really got out of hand. Lots of hot heads down here and lots of armed drivers. Better to get there 5 minutes late than never at all. I avoid trouble like the plague, but if it finds me, I am prepared.
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Old March 25, 2018, 01:39 PM   #63
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I was making my across a boulevard from the parking lot to a stadium when about half way across the boulevard car and pickup drivers rolled their windows down to make there booos more effective. It was about that time I realized I was in a state that had a major problem with managing anger.

I started to turn around and head back to the parking lot like I had forgot something, and then I thought about pretending I membered what it was I had forgot and then turn around and continue to the stadium; but I could not keep a straight face and broke out laughing, I gave them a glance and then gave them a wave; non of them were smiling, I did not slow down or act as thought I was in fear.

And then I thought my memory left me, I could have sworn Georgia beat Oklahoma, and then I wondered why were they angry at me.

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Old March 25, 2018, 09:47 PM   #64
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The parking lot reminded me of something. This would have been about 1996 or 1997, around there. A friend and I had gone to a concert and were parked at the top of a parking garage. The place was packed (which is how we ended up on top). Trying to leave was pointless, it was just a big traffic jam.

Someone would beep and then everyone would beep! I beeped too. In all of that you'd hear one single "a-ooga" horn and you'd hear one guy, screaming, "SHUT UP! STOP IT!!!!"

I looked at my friend and smiled. He said "don't you do it, don't!" I carressed the horn button and kept smiling....BEEEP!!!! And it all started again, including the "a-ooga" horn and screaming guy.
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Old March 27, 2018, 07:56 AM   #65
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Road Rage ?
Just drive down any street in Manhattan NYC , the vain on my neck looked like a fire hose . I moved to Long island where I don't have to drive around looking for parking space . During the gas shortage I saw a guy turn into a gas station , he didn't realize the line down the street two blocks long was a gas line . He pulled up to the pump , a guy pulled up next to him as he was pumping gas screaming at him an pulled out a tire iron from his trunk . The guy pumping explained he didn't realize there was a line , didn't help . The guy with the tire iron came towards him , the guy pumping removed the hose an drenched him with gas an said come any closer I'll light you up. That calmed things down . Made me laugh all day when I thought of it . Had to be there , people need space , when we're all jammed together bad things happen . I'm a Southerner at heart , when serving in the military I spent some time down south , the most honorable , fun loving people I ever met .
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Old March 28, 2018, 12:35 PM   #66
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@ cw308,

I know why the guns laws are so strict in New York. With the lousy drivers there, road rage would escalate into shootings every few seconds. Being from South Florida, I believe that I can drive with the worst of them.

First experience: I flew into Laguardia and had barely gotten out of the car rental area when a tow truck totally cuts me off and slams on the brakes in front of me. Not sure what his issue was as I did not do anything to affect him in any way.

Second experience: Had just gotten out of the Holland Tunnel. Traffic was rerouted some how causing crazy congestion. Nobody in New York understands the idea of "DON'T BLOCK THE BOX" and totally jammed up the intersection. about 2-3 cars were getting through on each light cycle. The other side of the intersection was totally clear in the direction we were heading. What a bunch of morons!

No offense, but I would not live in New York if I was guaranteed double what I am making now. We have enough bad drivers down here. LOL
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Old March 28, 2018, 01:02 PM   #67
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Just came across a road rage case in Texas. Guy, we’ll call him S1, tried to ram a family off the road. The driver, we’ll call him V1, drew a gun and fired back while they both drove down the highway. V1 pulled off and called police. S1 pulled over about a mile back and waited. S1 confessed to police he had some anger issues and did everything V1 accused him of doing.

V1 was told there may be some issues with him firing down the highway; but assured he would be all right and wasn’t arrested. Nine months later, the grand jury indicted him on felony charges and he has to leave work to go turn himself in for arrest. His job, which had a policy to terminate on indictment, stuck their necks out for him and put him on paid leave.

Six months later, his case is going nowhere and his employer is getting tired of paying him not to work. They stick their necks out again and put him back to work, though he is now basically forbidden from meeting any non-employees without a minder and if one of his fellow co-workers even jumps when he sneezes, he is done. He also misses out on a well-earned merit pay promotion because he hasn’t worked in six months so his evaluations are limited to “average” by policy.

Over two years after the initial incident, the charges are dismissed and his name is cleared. And this was a GOOD outcome! Nobody dead or injured. He kept his job and house. He got reasonable bail and a chance to turn himself in, so minimal jail time. Just out some merit pay, a mediocre eval at work and two years worth of criminal defense attorney fees.

That’s what is at stake here in gun friendly Texas when the guy confesses.
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Old March 29, 2018, 09:56 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
Just came across a road rage case in Texas. Guy, we’ll call him S1, tried to ram a family off the road. The driver, we’ll call him V1, drew a gun and fired back while they both drove down the highway. V1 pulled off and called police. S1 pulled over about a mile back and waited. S1 confessed to police he had some anger issues and did everything V1 accused him of doing.

V1 was told there may be some issues with him firing down the highway; but assured he would be all right and wasn’t arrested. Nine months later, the grand jury indicted him on felony charges and he has to leave work to go turn himself in for arrest. His job, which had a policy to terminate on indictment, stuck their necks out for him and put him on paid leave.

Six months later, his case is going nowhere and his employer is getting tired of paying him not to work. They stick their necks out again and put him back to work, though he is now basically forbidden from meeting any non-employees without a minder and if one of his fellow co-workers even jumps when he sneezes, he is done. He also misses out on a well-earned merit pay promotion because he hasn’t worked in six months so his evaluations are limited to “average” by policy.

Over two years after the initial incident, the charges are dismissed and his name is cleared. And this was a GOOD outcome! Nobody dead or injured. He kept his job and house. He got reasonable bail and a chance to turn himself in, so minimal jail time. Just out some merit pay, a mediocre eval at work and two years worth of criminal defense attorney fees.

That’s what is at stake here in gun friendly Texas when the guy confesses.
What was the felony V1 was indicted for and what happened to S1?
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Old March 29, 2018, 10:14 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
Just came across a road rage case in Texas. Guy, we’ll call him S1, tried to ram a family off the road. The driver, we’ll call him V1, drew a gun and fired back while they both drove down the highway. V1 pulled off and called police. S1 pulled over about a mile back and waited. S1 confessed to police he had some anger issues and did everything V1 accused him of doing.
Emphasis added. Does this part sound a bit nutty?

Do you think an indictment would have issued Against V1 if he had stopped his car in a defensive effort?
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Old March 29, 2018, 12:03 PM   #70
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I do not know how S1’s situstion turned out. V1 was charged with deadly conduct.

Quote:
Do you think an indictment would have issued Against V1 if he had stopped his car in a defensive effort?
I agree with you that I think the grand jury wished to send a very strong message that rolling firefights were looked at with disfavor; but I’m just guessing.
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Old March 29, 2018, 12:24 PM   #71
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Society has become increasingly intolerant and concurrently, violent. Media programming and desensitization play a role in this.

When I was in San Francisco, a father and his two teenage sons were killed by a gangbanger who mistook them for being gangbangers.

I'm glad I live in the country now and people are much more polite here.
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Old April 1, 2018, 04:41 PM   #72
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I know why the guns laws are so strict in New York. With the lousy drivers there, road rage would escalate into shootings every few seconds.

An argument made each time gun carry laws are relaxed or Stand Your Ground comes up for a vote. After the law passes, these predictions never come to pass.

***

Getting doused with gasoline probably would have a moderating effect on behavior!

Shooting across a highway: that's what happens when a person doesn't have a plan for how to handle such things. Glad it worked out for him but he'll think before he shoots next time.

I had a lady (early 20's) tell me that she "chased after people when they cut her off in traffic." When I cautioned her how dangerous and illegal that was she said she "would just shoot him."

To her credit, she listened while I explained how Stand Your Ground works and how it doesn't work. She then told me her dad "waved his gun out the window to a guy that cut him off once."

I explained to her how illegal that was and how lucky her dad is no one called that in.
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Old April 1, 2018, 04:57 PM   #73
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When somebody undertakes the serious and grave responsibility of “directing traffic,” that person assumes the liability that goes along with that responsibility, just as a police officer directing traffic at the scene would.
Police officer directing traffic has no responsibility at all. "Qualified immunity" (which you don't have) As long has he or she goes home at the end of the shift it's a good day, whether anyone else survives or not.

A mere mortal undertaking that job doesn't have immunity. So leave it to the so-called experts. (also, don't trust those experts if they tell you to merge into to traffic unsafely)
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Old April 1, 2018, 05:05 PM   #74
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Now we are into "directing traffic," "qualified immunity," and "mere mortals."

Must be a joy to ride or share the road with you guys. On the flip side we could write a book called Legal Perils of Road Courtesy.
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Old April 1, 2018, 07:31 PM   #75
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Must be a joy to ride or share the road with you guys.
The fact that a person is aware of, and understands, the risks of certain aspects of interacting in traffic doesn't imply that person is a discourteous driver or unpleasant to share the road with.
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