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June 27, 2008, 04:45 PM | #126 | ||
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June 27, 2008, 04:57 PM | #127 | ||||
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June 27, 2008, 05:04 PM | #128 | ||
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June 27, 2008, 05:13 PM | #129 | ||
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June 27, 2008, 05:29 PM | #130 |
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Funny, when I got my CCW in NY way back in the 80s, it was always 1911s or P7s, and occasional Model 19 or 28...
Then it slowly wended its way to Browning High Powers, Model 60s...then a TPH....or a baby Browning Now its all the way back up to a Seecamp, although I gaze lustfully at NAA .22 mags.... Must be I have more confidence in my ability and technique, don't need a big gun anymore or a substitute thereof.... WildcanishootyouinthefaceAlaska ™ PS....the last time I drew down with the Seecamp it was just as I alwys practice....center of face Screw that center of mass crap..... |
June 27, 2008, 07:35 PM | #131 |
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RFK's killer used a .22.
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June 27, 2008, 10:17 PM | #132 | |
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There is a website (I cannot for the life of me recall it now but the google search of "NDIA, weapons symposium" should get you close) in which they discuss lethality of small arms and CNS shots are not common and neither are head shots in close proximity fighting. Multiple hits center of mass seems to be "the norm". The mechanism of death is rapid blood loss. Within 20 feet or so it's unlikely that you'd be able to successfully draw, move and shoot without getting cut which places you in the "oh ****, I've GOT to stop the bleeding" category. I'm a bit spooked at the concept of a knife entering a confrontation (as many people are) and if I cannot "beat feet" getting rapid, solid hits in the upper torso MAY get the job done without me bleeding. Iff the threat is coming slowly enough or from far enough away the initial target would be upper torso, if he slowed but was still coming then I, too, would think, "PELVIC GIRDLE". It simply would not be my first choice and Nature has seemed to program us to strike towards head and torso (which is probably why when startled we bring our hands up to cover our face...) Interesting subject.
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June 27, 2008, 10:23 PM | #133 | |
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You can "philosophize" with vague Freud (fraud?) references but you and I know damned well that you hit better with a larger framed gun than a Kel-Tec P3AT. If that isn't the case it would be all the rage in IPSC, IDPA and advocated by all armed professionals the world over. Here's a hint: They don't. And if you KNEW that the likelyhood was extremely high that you'd have to actually use whatever you carried you'd probably choose something a bit better than a BACKUP Gun - that is what they are called for a reason. Yes, it's better than nothing, but since when is "nothing" an option??
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"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783 Last edited by Chui; June 27, 2008 at 11:28 PM. |
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June 27, 2008, 11:38 PM | #134 | |
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June 28, 2008, 01:03 AM | #135 |
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Chui-
Do you live somewhere that has zombies? As I said before- anyone who keeps coming after being shot at (or shot) is obviously insane, and nothing besides a CNS shot would put them down immediately. Apparently, you are spooked by more than knives-if you think a crazed assassin bent on your destruction (at the cost of his own life) is after you. Yes, we ALL realize that a bigger gun is better. We simply no longer feel the need to carry a big gun. We would rather be comfortable and go about our lives armed. You carry your big "rig" all you want. One day you just might say, "You know, those old guys were on to something." |
June 28, 2008, 02:05 AM | #136 |
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Quite a few bad guys have been known to carry mouseguns. A lot of ugly street crimes/assaults have been carried out with little .22/.25acps. One of the most important aspects of the mousegun, is its concealability. In a self-defense situation, its extreme concealability is likewise the main attribute of its effectiveness.
The range is going to be very close ie. less than 5ft - and maybe less than 1ft. away. Think about 7 shots from a .22 delivered into the torso at a range of about 2ft. Maybe they'll survive? Bullet failure can occur with larger calibres too ie. a .357 mag at close range might miss a vital spot, not open up...and could also be problematic to control via blast/recoil. There are factual stories of soldiers on the battlefield having .50cal. rounds go through them...but still living to effectively fight on quite a bit. There's no 'magic bullet.' I'm not saying that the .22/.25acp is the best round - but I would say it can be quite effective. Personally, I prefer a .38, but there are times when a smaller mousegun...is nice to have too. It's not just better than nothing - but a lot better than nothing. |
June 28, 2008, 08:18 AM | #137 |
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In our local paper this morning is an article about a woman getting life in prison fro killing her husband with a .22 pistol. I just posted the link for verification.
Also remember that the little 4 year old girl that used her grandmothers .32 to put a bullet clean through herself. Last I hear she is doing fine. Mouseguns can and do kill. I don't think anyone who says that they prefer a box of rocks to a mousegun is willing to back that up with being shot by one. http://www.scnow.com/scp/news/local/...y_murder/9855/ |
June 28, 2008, 09:10 AM | #138 | |
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I've interrogated or otherwise interviewed violent offenders for a long time, and the almost universal response to having guns pointed at them and/or fired at them is to leave if possible or take cover if they can't reasonably get away , due to volume of fire. They may return fire while running, or attempt to return fire from cover, but none has ever advanced into oncoming fire, and none has ever made mention of caliber or scoffed at little guns: they just know they are being shot at, and want to get away from it. |
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June 28, 2008, 09:58 AM | #139 |
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June 28, 2008, 10:25 AM | #140 | |
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Plus 1 billion WildsmallisgoodAlaska TM PS I put the 44 away and now carry a 38 S&W Webley in the glove box, simply so when confronted by a "goblin" (tee hee, how cute) I can go into my Michael Caine mode and scream FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRR. I can't afford a 455 |
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June 28, 2008, 10:46 AM | #141 | |
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June 28, 2008, 10:48 AM | #142 |
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I often carry a Beretta 21 25auto, with a MecGar mag that holds 9 rounds, giving me a total of 10. It is reliable, and can rapid fire all 10 rounds in a very short period of time. If I ever have to use it, the bad guy will not know I have it till it is in his face, and all 10 are coming at him. After that, he better be watching for MY big pocket knife.
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June 28, 2008, 02:44 PM | #143 | ||||
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June 29, 2008, 11:02 AM | #144 |
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Chui-
Do you live somewhere that has zombies? "28 Days Later" and "28 Weeks Later" type? One would like to think no. Check your newspaper and CNN, however, and they mysteriously appear (at least in major cities and the surrounding suburbs, thereof). Question: Do you think the bastards who organized, planned and executed the OKC bombing, WTC I, Columbine, September 11th, VaTech, etc. as zombies? Did you FULLY EXPECT ANYTHING OF THE MAGNITUDE OF WTC II TO OCCUR IN THE USA IN YOUR LIFETIME? If you think or answer, "no", then you're in the norm. But they happened. And more will come. As I said before - anyone who keeps coming after being shot at (or shot) is obviously insane, and nothing besides a CNS shot would put them down immediately. Apparently, you cannot shoot quickly or ever witnessed a shooting. It happens very quickly and in the thread aboubt being shot some report they did not feel a lot of pain immediately. Should be a lesson in that for you... Apparently, you are spooked by more than knives - if you think a crazed assassin bent on your destruction (at the cost of his own life) is after you. Yes, we ALL realize that a bigger gun is better. We simply no longer feel the need to carry a big gun. We would rather be comfortable and go about our lives armed. You carry your big "rig" all you want. One day you just might say, "You know, those old guys were on to something." "Spooked" would be an inoperative word. "Concerned" would be a much better descriptor. You pull a knife in a quarrel and you're oh, so damned close to being shot until you drop it... You see, I know what a knife can do as I've trained a bit to use them. I've also seen first hand what they can do and I want no part of that and if you're wise you'd concur. It's good to see that you DO recognize that what you carry is less than ideal. I wasn't aware of this by reading many posts here. "Comfort" is relative. What one laughs at crushes another. I'm quite comfortable with what I carry daily and I'm extremely comfortable and proficient with it's use if it comes to it. The only time I'll switch to something very small and more difficult to fight with will be when I can no longer carry what I do with any comfort. As long as I'm able I will go no smaller than a P30, Glock 19 or M&P9. You know, [IDPA] might be a pretty good example. I don’t know very many IPSC and IDPA folks that use their competition guns for carry. That might be because so many folks realize there is a difference between what is needed to score lots of points in a game and what is adequate for DGU incidents. In fact, IDPA developed a whole subcategory of the game just for BUGs due to popular request. And there are a whole lot of armed professionals that carry small guns the world over in various situations. Absolutely. They KNOW that they hit better with full-size pistols. My question is why don't they carry what they compete with? The same with those who show up at Defensive Shooting Classes with firearms they'll never have on them... Why? Several reasons: they aren't comfortable shooting over 700 rounds or more, obviously; they are SLOW to reload and they are VERY DIFFICULT to hit well with at speed (and any distance). I'd like to take several BUG classes, drills and shoot a few BUG IDPA practices & matches before I'd feel comfortable with one. Admittedly, there are circumstances where a 340PD would be well worth having. But when those circumstances arrive I'm under no illusion about my ability to hit very well and quickly with it as compared to any mid-sized semiautomatic pistol. So being aware of one's limitations (I'm under no illusion that adherents of "micropistols" and J-Frames as primary feel that they can shoot as well with, say, a Glock 17, M&P9, 1911, P226...). I just refuse to buy into the "I cannot conceal a mid-size or full-size pistol" for most people. Why? I work at a gunstore as a hobby (they're close friends of mine) and when I sell a pistol no more than 5% take the advice to purchase a "gun belt" and a decent holster. They wear whatever thin belt they have, they want the cheap nylon holsters and they aren't willing to alter their dress to accomodate the pistol or revolver. Many are not open to even discuss altering their dress. It's pathetic, but there it is. Modern-day Americans - Wimpus Americanus. So my vociferous defense of nothing less than mid-size and irreverence for the "comfortable" argument is based upon about 100 cases of pure ignorance. That's not to say that anyone participating in this online conversation fits that bill but statistics will say that some here have not tried good equipment to see if it fits them well. You should.
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June 29, 2008, 01:03 PM | #145 |
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Chui
I shoot pretty well, pretty quickly. I have seen shootings and I know a little bit about knives. I certainly don't need to prove myself to you. The WTC attacks have little to do with self defense. If they bring the war to me I have more than enough "big guns" for the job. Maybe the people you have sold guns to know something you don't. You don't need a "duty belt" for most carry. You should be glad they are gun owners, rather than condescending toward them. You seem typical of the gun shop commandos that turn people off to "gun people." I have seen hundreds like you- you think you know more than anyone else-regardless of their situation. It is YOU sir, that is the ignorant one. |
June 29, 2008, 01:52 PM | #146 |
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.22 over the .25.
.22WMR over the .22LR. NAA mini-magnum revolver in .22WMR by far over the .22LR mini-revolver. .22WMR as primary and only SD weapon over .22LR or .25ACP. You'll always carry it if push comes to shove.. Of course, I prefer a snub in .38+P, or a 9, but I think .22WMR is adequate. Just learn to shoot it accurately. I refuse to carry a large handgun concealed. Carry for me, by choice, is in a front pocket only. The chances of justifiably needing to display or use the weapon, for the average citizen in relatively 'good' surrounds, is so 'miniscule' as to justify carrying a .22LR, or even .25ACP, if you are so inclined, and nothing else. |
June 29, 2008, 02:02 PM | #147 | |
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My advise is to get that over the .22LR version-don't even bother with that. If any indication, check gello tests: .22LR http://brassfetcher.com/22minis.html .22WMR http://brassfetcher.com/NAAminiRevolver22Magnum.html |
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June 29, 2008, 07:59 PM | #148 | |
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I love guys wearing Glock 17s with a BUG and two reloads in an town where there hasn't been a crime since 1948. Bill said the rest. WildicarryagentlemansgunAlaska TM |
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June 29, 2008, 08:22 PM | #149 | |
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June 29, 2008, 08:29 PM | #150 | |
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