Best reloading dies? - Page 2

Wildalaska · November 9, 2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Everybody loves what they love but no one can tell you if, how or why their beloved makes any better ammo than any other! They can't, because there is no consistant difference to any of them.

Not so.

I use redding competion neck sizers with TIN bushings. They produced visibly better necks and gave me (subjectively to my hands) more consistent bullet tension than Hornadys.

The Redding Competion seater is far more accurate and produces less run out that either the Hornady or RCBS.

YMMV. Whenever I buy something, I consider it to be a lifetime investment and am willing to pay more for fit, finish and even the slightest upgrade in quality

Kind Regards

WildplusweareddingdealerssogetnicediscountslolAlaska ™©2002-2010

wncchester · November 9, 2010, 03:42 PM

"gave me (subjectively to my hands) more consistent bullet tension than Hornadys"

Yeah. Everyone has his 'subjective to his hands proof' or his targets. But, hands aren't calibrated and shooting skills tend to overwhelm targets. Differences not substantuated by measurements with a concentricity gage and a head space gage aren't much proof of anything.

I fully agree that Forster's and Redding's seaters do work slightly better on average than any others but the actual measured difference isn't vast. I mean, a conventional seater may average 3 thou of runout with good cases and one of the big guys may well cut that in half. The question is, how much difference is that "vast" 50% difference worth to most rifles/shooters? The percentage is huge but it's still only thou and a half! I LIKE to see that in my ammo, and I use them because of it, but I only have a couple rifles sufficently accurate to see any difference on paper.

There is much more to obtaining low runout than getting a Forster/Redding seater and saying, "Oh boy, now my arrmo is going to be much more accurate"; that's rarely, if ever, true! It MAY shave a little off groups but not vast; not unless the comparision dies are vastly bad and that's rare.

Thing about averages vs. individual samples is they will fool you. It's NOT valid to say "I have two die sets in .22-250, I get .5MOA with the RCBS and .75 with the Hornady so it's clear RCBS makes better dies." A single example of anything means nothing statistically, two isn't much better. To be meaningful we really need to actually measure the results of a lot of samples. Even then (as the recent election polls sampling several hundreds of people showed) the results can easily be off by 4-6%. We would have to measure a simular number of dies to "prove" anything, there would be great individual variations in the results (like: 40% one way, 50% the other and 10% unclear) AND we would still have the same margin of error.

Thus, in view of the numbers of dies I HAVE tested with a concentricity gage not showing any meaningful average difference between brands, as such, I stand by my statement that IF there's a defferenece at all it would be virtually impossible to prove. That's not to say those with subjective hands and eyeballs shouldn't buy what ever makes them feel good but they should recognise it's just a personal view that may or may not be correct.

In some 45 years of reloading, the only way I've gotten really "good" die sets has been to buy more than one set and measure the output of both, keep the better 'set' and sell the other and then buy another set and compair them to the first set to make the same choices again. Out of some 8-9 die sets I now call my keepers, not one of them has both the sizer and seater from the same original set and few carry the same brand.

The slight superiority of Redding/Forster seaters is due to the full case sleeve design, not tighter tolerances and that was the OPs question. Hornady and RCBS Comp/Gold Metal seater's short and loose fitting sliding sleeves may be a little easier for some people to use but I see no evidence they perform better than common seaters.

Final point; no seater can load straight ammo in cases with bent necks. Some case necks are bad from the factory but some necks get bent when pulling a conventional expander ball back out. That's why I love the Lee Collet Neck Dies, they work very unconventionally and leave necks as straight as possible.

In my limited experience using bushing type neck sizers it seem the results are largely dependant on how far down the dies must move the diameter; if it's a small amount the bushing dies can do pretty well. Otherwise, not so well. ??

Wildalaska · November 9, 2010, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Some necks are bad from the factory, some necks get bent when pulling a conventional expander ball back out.

Thats why I dont use expander balls

Warm Regards

Wildandifiamshooting$10000worthofgun/opticidontcareaboutdiecostAlaska ™©2002-2010

Poodleshooter · November 9, 2010, 04:15 PM

Best reloading dies? Clean,well maintained dies with no rust!

wncchester · November 9, 2010, 04:42 PM

"Thats why I dont use expander balls"

Good point but they often need some expanding for a consistant neck inside diameter.

For my best stuff I really prefer a sizer 'set' consisting of a really good FL die I've "ruined" by drilling out the neck to a slightly larger than normal neck diameter to make my own "bump die". And then size the neck with a Lee Collet. Or, when I just can't bring myself to bore out a good FL sizer, I will use it without the ball and expand with a Lyman M expander.

Poodle shooter, I agree your method of die "selection" is pretty good!

Wildalaska · November 9, 2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Good point but they often need some expanding for a consistant neck inside diameter.

I can honestly say I havent used an expander ball in the past 10 years IIRC

Sincerely

WildbutionlyusepremiumbrassAlaska ™©2002-2010

GeauxTide · November 10, 2010, 12:56 PM

In my 40 years loading 13 different cartridges, I've used Lee, Lyman, Redding, RCBS, and Hornady. The RCBS has been the most consistent in Rifle and the Lee gets my handgun vote.

November 9, 2010, 03:42 PM	#27
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"gave me (subjectively to my hands) more consistent bullet tension than Hornadys" Yeah. Everyone has his 'subjective to his hands proof' or his targets. But, hands aren't calibrated and shooting skills tend to overwhelm targets. Differences not substantuated by measurements with a concentricity gage and a head space gage aren't much proof of anything. I fully agree that Forster's and Redding's seaters do work slightly better on average than any others but the actual measured difference isn't vast. I mean, a conventional seater may average 3 thou of runout with good cases and one of the big guys may well cut that in half. The question is, how much difference is that "vast" 50% difference worth to most rifles/shooters? The percentage is huge but it's still only thou and a half! I LIKE to see that in my ammo, and I use them because of it, but I only have a couple rifles sufficently accurate to see any difference on paper. There is much more to obtaining low runout than getting a Forster/Redding seater and saying, "Oh boy, now my arrmo is going to be much more accurate"; that's rarely, if ever, true! It MAY shave a little off groups but not vast; not unless the comparision dies are vastly bad and that's rare. Thing about averages vs. individual samples is they will fool you. It's NOT valid to say "I have two die sets in .22-250, I get .5MOA with the RCBS and .75 with the Hornady so it's clear RCBS makes better dies." A single example of anything means nothing statistically, two isn't much better. To be meaningful we really need to actually measure the results of a lot of samples. Even then (as the recent election polls sampling several hundreds of people showed) the results can easily be off by 4-6%. We would have to measure a simular number of dies to "prove" anything, there would be great individual variations in the results (like: 40% one way, 50% the other and 10% unclear) AND we would still have the same margin of error. Thus, in view of the numbers of dies I HAVE tested with a concentricity gage not showing any meaningful average difference between brands, as such, I stand by my statement that IF there's a defferenece at all it would be virtually impossible to prove. That's not to say those with subjective hands and eyeballs shouldn't buy what ever makes them feel good but they should recognise it's just a personal view that may or may not be correct. In some 45 years of reloading, the only way I've gotten really "good" die sets has been to buy more than one set and measure the output of both, keep the better 'set' and sell the other and then buy another set and compair them to the first set to make the same choices again. Out of some 8-9 die sets I now call my keepers, not one of them has both the sizer and seater from the same original set and few carry the same brand. The slight superiority of Redding/Forster seaters is due to the full case sleeve design, not tighter tolerances and that was the OPs question. Hornady and RCBS Comp/Gold Metal seater's short and loose fitting sliding sleeves may be a little easier for some people to use but I see no evidence they perform better than common seaters. Final point; no seater can load straight ammo in cases with bent necks. Some case necks are bad from the factory but some necks get bent when pulling a conventional expander ball back out. That's why I love the Lee Collet Neck Dies, they work very unconventionally and leave necks as straight as possible. In my limited experience using bushing type neck sizers it seem the results are largely dependant on how far down the dies must move the diameter; if it's a small amount the bushing dies can do pretty well. Otherwise, not so well. ?? Last edited by wncchester; November 9, 2010 at 04:48 PM.

November 9, 2010, 04:15 PM	#29
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Best reloading dies? Clean,well maintained dies with no rust!

November 9, 2010, 04:42 PM	#30
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Thats why I dont use expander balls" Good point but they often need some expanding for a consistant neck inside diameter. For my best stuff I really prefer a sizer 'set' consisting of a really good FL die I've "ruined" by drilling out the neck to a slightly larger than normal neck diameter to make my own "bump die". And then size the neck with a Lee Collet. Or, when I just can't bring myself to bore out a good FL sizer, I will use it without the ball and expand with a Lyman M expander. Poodle shooter, I agree your method of die "selection" is pretty good!

November 10, 2010, 12:56 PM	#32
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	In my 40 years loading 13 different cartridges, I've used Lee, Lyman, Redding, RCBS, and Hornady. The RCBS has been the most consistent in Rifle and the Lee gets my handgun vote.