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View Poll Results: Better Integrally Suppressed 9mm
UDP-9ic 1 50.00%
Brown Recluse 1 50.00%
Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 26, 2018, 04:33 PM   #1
alex0603
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First NFA purchase

I have been looking to make the NFA plunge for a while and have specifically been looking at 9mm carbines. I have an opportunity now to get one and I have narrowed it down to a Spikes tactical Brown Recluse or a Angstadt Arms UDP-9ic. I realize the UDP-9iC will require two stamps vs the Spikes only requiring one. I have hashed through the specs but honestly don't know enough to know if there is a significant difference between these to easily make a decision between these. Any inputs on these would be appreciated.

https://www.spikestactical.com/produ...nt=32734017548

https://angstadtarms.com/product/udp...ly-suppressed/
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Old August 27, 2018, 10:26 AM   #2
dogtown tom
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1. What is the intended use?
If for plinking/range toy, size doesn't really matter, whereas for home defense compactness is a plus.

2. What is your budget?
IMO $2000 for a 9mm silenced carbine is insanely overpriced....not to mention requiring two tax stamps...….so its really $2400. And the Spikes for $2,200?
AR uppers (of any caliber) are at an all time low.

3. Integrally suppressed why?
I LOVE my integrally suppressed 10/22! But no way shape or form was it my first silencer. The main reason I wanted it was being as short as possible AND avoid being an SBR. That's the primary reason for going integral.



4. Build your own for less than half the cost.
$549 PSA pistol AR or
$249 Palmetto State Armory complete upper:https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...165449166.html

Then add stand alone full auto rated silencer at $700 or less......that you could use on any other 9mm firearm. If your silencer was .45 it could be used not only on 9mm, but .40 and .45acp.
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Old August 27, 2018, 11:41 AM   #3
Screwball
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Personally, I’d rather get a separate suppressor to allow me use across different firearms... then, get an AR pistol.

SBRs are nice, and when I move to a friendlier state, will get one. But if you have any plans to take said firearm across state lines, NFA is a little more hassle to deal with. AR pistol... just like any other firearm (state laws applicable).
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Old August 28, 2018, 10:53 PM   #4
raimius
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I'm another who would not advocate a first NFA item be integrally suppressed (unless you have a lot of experience with stuff you didn't own).

For example, my first pistol can was a Gemtech GM-45 for my 1911. Well, it blocked the sights, and I liked the original sights...so now it lives on my MP5K clone...and it's a TON of fun.
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Old August 29, 2018, 11:05 AM   #5
DMK
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Quote:
I realize the UDP-9iC will require two stamps vs the Spikes only requiring one.
It looks to me like both will require two stamps for a rifle. The Spikes has a 6.75" barrel and the UDP-9i has a 6" barrel.

Though you could get either as an upper and put it on a pistol lower ($1766 for the Spikes upper and $1499 for the UDP-9i upper).

There's also the D3 9SD upper (also a 6" barrel) for $1999:

https://www.d3llc.com/suppressors

Last edited by DMK; August 29, 2018 at 11:13 AM.
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Old August 29, 2018, 07:14 PM   #6
dogtown tom
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Quote:
DMK Quote:...It looks to me like both will require two stamps for a rifle. The Spikes has a 6.75" barrel ….
The Spikes is a one stamp upper because that 6.75" rifled barrel is integral with the silencer. Being one piece it exceeds 16" from bolt face to end of muzzle.
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Old August 30, 2018, 01:29 PM   #7
DMK
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Quote:
The Spikes is a one stamp upper because that 6.75" rifled barrel is integral with the silencer. Being one piece it exceeds 16" from bolt face to end of muzzle.
You're right! Spikes should make that more clear in the specs.
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Old August 30, 2018, 05:26 PM   #8
dogtown tom
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Quote:
DMK You're right! Spikes should make that more clear in the specs.
It's clear as glass, unless you stopped reading at 6.75" or don't know what an integral silencer is.
The description says :
Quote:

The Recluse is a passion project from our Skunk Works shop. The ambitious goal was to bring a single stamp, integrally suppressed, 9mm AR to the market. The Recluse feeds from either Colt or Glock mags. The Recluse does not require sub-sonic ammunition as the careful porting reduces velocity below the speed of sound. No more specialty 9mm ammo required. Use the drop down menu to select the lower of your choice.



6.75" 9MM Cold Hammer Forged Barrel
• Nickel Plated Exterior
• Chrome Plated Interior
• 1/10 Twist Rate
• 9MM Luger Chamber
• Ported by the Chamber


Suppressor
• 7075 T6 Baffle Stack
• Iridite Coating
• Stainless Steel Blast Baffle
• Integral to the Barrel
• 7075 T6 Body
• Hard Coat Anodize
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Old August 31, 2018, 07:45 AM   #9
DMK
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Quote:
It's clear as glass, unless you stopped reading at 6.75" or don't know what an integral silencer is.
How is it clear as glass? There is ambiguity. It doesn't give you the total length. It just says the suppressor is integral to the barrel. That could be any length over 6.75" (well actually, it's clear from the picture that it's longer than the 12" handguard).

Also it's possible for an integral suppressor to be taken apart from the barrel, like the D3 SD9, in which case the ATF would have classified it as a 6.75" barrel. That's apparently not the case with Spikes, but again, it wasn't clear from their specs. I had to do some searching to determine that.

It looks a nice system though. I'm not being critical of it.

Last edited by DMK; August 31, 2018 at 07:52 AM.
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Old August 31, 2018, 10:38 AM   #10
dogtown tom
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Quote:
DMK
Quote:
Quote:
It's clear as glass, unless you stopped reading at 6.75" or don't know what an integral silencer is.
How is it clear as glass?
Quote:
The Recluse is a passion project from our Skunk Works shop. The ambitious goal was to bring a single stamp, integrally suppressed, 9mm AR to the market. The Recluse feeds from either Colt or Glock mags. The Recluse does not require sub-sonic ammunition as the careful porting reduces velocity below the speed of sound. No more specialty 9mm ammo required. Use the drop down menu to select the lower of your choice.



6.75" 9MM Cold Hammer Forged Barrel
• Nickel Plated Exterior
• Chrome Plated Interior
• 1/10 Twist Rate
• 9MM Luger Chamber
• Ported by the Chamber


Suppressor
• 7075 T6 Baffle Stack
• Iridite Coating
• Stainless Steel Blast Baffle
Integral to the Barrel
• 7075 T6 Body
• Hard Coat Anodize

Quote:
It doesn't give you the total length. It just says the suppressor is integral to the barrel. That could be any length over 6.75" (well actually, it's clear from the picture that it's longer than the 12" handguard).
Well, being that its a "one stamp gun" (for the silencer) the barrel is at least 16" long. Any shorter and guess how many stamps it would be?



Quote:
Also it's possible for an integral suppressor to be taken apart from the barrel, like the D3 SD9, in which case the ATF would have classified it as a 6.75" barrel.
D3 doesn't know what "integral" means. If the gun will fire with the silencer removed (and the D3 SD9 will)…...it requires TWO stamps.
Further, the D3 SD9 isn't a one stamp gun, its clearly an SBR with a silencer.
From the D3 website:

Quote:
D3-9SD "Ultimate Urban Carbine"
The D3-9SD, also known as the, "Ultimate Urban Carbine", maintains the familiarity of the AR platform, the stealth of the H&K MP5-SD style suppressor, and utilizes the popular Glock 17/19/18 double stack pistol magazines.
The Glock Pistol is popular with civilians, Law Enforcement, and government agencies. This carbine is designed to complement their existing Glock handguns and give them the tactical advantage of carrying only one caliber magazine and share it on both pistol and carbine. This allows quick transition from a sidearm to an extremely quiet and accurate suppressed carbine.
[Specifications]

* Overall Length: 22-29″ depending on stock, collasped
* Barrel/Suppressor Length: 13.5″ installed
* Barrel: 6.75: ported, 4140 steel, 1:10 twist, parkerized
* Serviceable Suppressor: not recommended
* Enhanced hybrid bolt carrier
* Standard charging handle
* PCC Deflector & short dust cover
* Aero Precision 9″ Forend: choice of KeyMod or Quad-rail.
* 6160-T6 Anodized
* Forged lower: 7075-T6, Hard Coat Anodized
* Magpul K2 Grip
* Magpul MOE mil-spec stock and 6-position buffer tube
* One 30+ rnd magazine
* Optics Ready
* Semi-auto fire group
* Full auto available with LE/Gov't letter
* KNS Precision Stainless Steel Anti-Rotation Pins
* Black Discrete Hybrid Soft Carry case. Padded with two internal pockets, carry handle, and shoulder strap. White embroidered D3LLC logo
* Base Weight: approximately 7.0 lbs. depending on caliber and configuration
NFA Rules Apply



Quote:
That's apparently not the case with Spikes, but again, it wasn't clear from their specs. I had to do some searching to determine that.
First, you have to know why two stamps might be involved. And again, its clear that the Spikes is not an SBR.
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Old September 1, 2018, 07:22 AM   #11
DMK
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OK Dogtown Thanks for schooling me with all the bold text. I guess you win the internets.
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