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Old December 2, 2020, 10:02 PM   #26
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Old December 26, 2020, 12:44 AM   #27
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Double Tap 135 grain produces well over 700 ft lbs of energy and is reasonably controllable from a Glock.

It’s interesting to me that people still say the 10mm is no more effective than 9mm, 40 s&w or 45 acp even though they are more powerful. I think the logic is that since 10 mm doesn’t create the devastating tissue damage of a high powered rifle round it’s extra power is unnecessary. It’s strange that increasing from a 250 ft lb .38 special to a 400 ft lb 9 mm creates a better personal defense round but increasing from up to and past 700 ft lbs is pointless.

The controllability argument on the the other hand is completely logical. But I prefer the concept of firing fewer more powerful shots. I base this on my own shooting and reading about the amazing number shots fired and the equally amazing number of misses in street shootings.
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Old December 26, 2020, 04:11 AM   #28
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It’s strange that increasing from a 250 ft lb .38 special to a 400 ft lb 9 mm creates a better personal defense round but increasing from up to and past 700 ft lbs is pointless.
The context is critical.

Most often, the context is the FBI penetration tests. The thing about the FBI penetration tests is that they provide a hard threshold. Pass the threshold and the FBI (and therefore most of American LE as well as a lot of the people who follow the FBI's lead) consider that ammunition to be suitable personal defense. If the threshold isn't met then the round isn't considered suitable for personal defense.

So, let's take 3 handgun calibers, A, B, and C.

Let's say that A and B vary only slightly in terms of energy, momentum, and bullet diameter but A can not meet the threshold established by the FBI's testing protocol.

Let's say that B and C are quite different in terms of energy, momentum, and bullet diameter and both meet the threshold established by the FBI's testing protocol.

Then A would be considered to be unsuitable for personal defense even though it's quite similar to B.

Both B and C would be considered suitable for personal defense even though they are quite different from each other in just about every way possible. Does that mean they are considered to be equivalent? No, it means they are both considered to be sufficient.
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Old December 26, 2020, 08:39 AM   #29
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How much you want to spend .
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Old December 27, 2020, 01:31 AM   #30
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Zeke,

"Full-power" 10MM loads might be difficult to find because for self-defense, they produce diminishing returns.

.40 cal is most effective firing 180 grain bullets at ~1000 FPS.
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Old December 27, 2020, 07:00 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Catfishman
It’s interesting to me that people still say the 10mm is no more effective than 9mm, 40 s&w or 45 acp even though they are more powerful. I think the logic is that since 10 mm doesn’t create the devastating tissue damage of a high powered rifle round it’s extra power is unnecessary. It’s strange that increasing from a 250 ft lb .38 special to a 400 ft lb 9 mm creates a better personal defense round but increasing from up to and past 700 ft lbs is pointless.
It's not so much that it is no more effective than 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, but rather that the increase in effectiveness falls victim to diminishing returns in which the increase in performance isn't worth all of the drawbacks involved, particularly the risk of overpenetration.
Full Power 10mm Auto loads just fall within a weird spot when it comes to effectiveness in which the round is simultaneously overpowered for use against human beings, yet that excess energy doesn't translate into increased effectiveness because more often then not it's just going to zip right through a person without transferring much if any of it's energy into the target, and even if someone were to engineer a bullet for Full Power 10mm loads that wouldn't overpenetrate, the energy transfer might at most stun the recipient for a moment longer due to the pain/disorientation of that massive energy surge through their soft tissue, but it really wouldn't do much more physical damage, and there's the rub.

If you like 10mm Auto, feel more confident carrying it, and believe that full-power 10mm Auto provides a tangible advantage over more common semiautomatic pistol cartridges, then by all means carry it. It will certainly get the job done and is without question a more powerful, more effective cartridge than 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. However, said effectiveness is objectively more appreciable against creatures which take more oomph to bring down than a human being who most likely drop just as readily when shot with a weaker cartridge, which is less expensive, more readily available, chambered in smaller, lighter, easy to carry firearms which are also less expensive.

Bottom line, with proper shot placement, even a .380 ACP fired from a Pocket Pistol will generally stop an attacker, so most people prefer to carry a smaller, lighter, firearm which is less expensive to feed and more pleasant to train with like a .38 Special Snubby or a Subcompact 9mm Pistol.
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Old December 27, 2020, 07:28 PM   #32
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Full Power 10mm Auto loads just fall within a weird spot when it comes to effectiveness in which the round is simultaneously overpowered for use against human beings, yet that excess energy doesn't translate into increased effectiveness because more often then not it's just going to zip right through a person without transferring much if any of it's energy into the target, and even if someone were to engineer a bullet for Full Power 10mm loads that wouldn't overpenetrate, the energy transfer might at most stun the recipient for a moment longer due to the pain/disorientation of that massive energy surge through their soft tissue, but it really wouldn't do much more physical damage, and there's the rub.
a nice read on the topic.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...rostatic_Shock
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Old December 28, 2020, 02:54 AM   #33
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If I were limited to 10mm, I wouldn't select XTP loaded hot for defense. By function, Hornady's XTP penetrates and has controlled/limited expansion. There is no reason to hot rod load an XTP for anything but hunting. It's the reason XTP in .380 is one of the best .380 hollow points. 380 in XTP goes deep with limited expansion where other hollow points explode in expansion. That isn't what you want in 9mm and up when all other rounds reach sufficient penetration.

Even though loaded about .40 levels, I think your personal defense question is answered by the Gold Dot 200gr factory load or the HST 200gr factory load. That is full power personal defense. I think the skiving on the HST/Gold Dot along with Federal/CCI's bonding is just superior making a less crumpled mess or fast folded pedal like you see in Hornady Critical line (expanded too fast). Any boutique loading of the Gold Dot isn't netting you what you might think. Some people have shown these loads expand too fast and don't get penetration.

If they cost the same, I would pick the Gold Dot/HST factory loads over any hot rod other bullet.
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Old December 28, 2020, 11:38 AM   #34
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@mikejones
That was indeed an interesting report, and I thank you for sharing it with me. The details shared within are largely consistent with my own beliefs on the phenomenon colloquially referred to as "Hydrostatic Shock" based on similar reports and articles on the subject.
Unfortunately, "Hydrostatic Shock" is still widely regarded as an unproven theory rather than scientific fact, and it has been so thoroughly denigrated, criticized, and dismissed by authoritarian figures based on equally if not more unproven anecdotal evidence such as those proposed by Dr. Fackler.

I find it quite amusing that the FBI just so happens to use a level of ballistics performance in testing as a benchmark which also just so happens to be the threshold for Hydrostatic Shock, yet they continue to assert that any begotten advantage larger diameter bullets with more kinetic energy is marginal at best, while also neglecting to mention that the 9mm loads they used are an overpressure variant with energy levels well beyond that of standard pressure loads. So they say .40 S&W and .45 ACP are no more effective than 9mm Luger, yet don't bother to mention that they're using 9mm loads which are essentially poor-man's .357 SIG.

That all being said, it's important to note that one of the closing statements in said report is, and I quote...

Quote:
With a handgun, no wounding mechanism can be relied on to produce incapacitation 100% of the time within the short span of most gunfights. Selecting a good self-defense load is only a small part of surviving a gunfight. You have to hit an attacker to hurt him, and you need a good plan for surviving until your hits take effect. Get good training, practice regularly, learn to use cover, and pray that you will never have a lethal force encounter armed only with a handgun.
The report itself concludes that Hydrostatic Shock is not a guaranteed method of incapacitation, that accurate/decisive hits are what ultimately decides the outcome of a gunfight, and most importantly that handguns are less than ideal for self-defense.
Ergo although Hydrostatic Shock may indeed be possible with more powerful handgun cartridges capable of consistently delivering 500ft-lbs or more kinetic energy, and the resulting Hydrostatic Shock may result in remote wounding of vitals under ideal circumstances, it's not guaranteed to result in incapacitation.
Furthermore, the closing statement stresses the importance of proper tactics/training, and full-power 10mm Auto loads tend to be uncommon as well as expensive, thus making training with 10mm more difficult than more common cartridges.
Last but not least, full-power 10mm Auto tends to overpenetrate, ergo Hydrostatic Shock most likely wouldn't occur at all since the energy isn't dumped into the attacker's body.

@wild cat mccane
Unfortunately, XTPs are known to overpenetrate in .40 S&W, so a hot loaded 10mm XTP would only penetrate worse, assuming the higher velocity didn't cause it to fragment inside the body of the attacker.
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Old December 29, 2020, 10:25 AM   #35
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I find that in 357sig,most is under powered.

Except for underwood
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Old December 31, 2020, 02:03 PM   #36
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My current carry piece is a full size 1911 in 10mm. My current carry load is a handload of 180 grain winchester sxt bullets over a charge of CFE pistol. They should be in the +/- 1200 fps range. That extra 200-300 fps and the corospondinging energy increase over the 40 S&W is significant.
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Old December 31, 2020, 03:18 PM   #37
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But is the result on target significant? All you made mention is an increased FPS.

Here's what I mean. The 9mm HST in 147gr +P went 1,000 FPS in the Lucky Gunner test and went as far (20") and expanded as much (.6") as the best 357mag load that went 1,600 FPS. That is a higher FPS change than what you just described. What this shows is the 9mm HST is better as a self defense bullet. Same expansion, same penetration. 600 FPS (!) slower than the Barnes XBP 357mag. Small size. weight didn't make a difference in the two important measures. Speed didn't make a difference. AND that's on top of the fact that Barnes XBP is arguably one of the best bullet type as it is a harder all copper construction.

It's not just FPS. In fact, FPS is largely the least important point with these new bullets. At some point, these better bullets DON'T do well with higher FPS. On older bullets it does WORSE because they aren't bonded--ie jacket separates or they break up. On the Silver Tips? Probably good. Can a newer Gold Dot do better with a lower FPS? Absolutely it can.

If not, Federal 9BPLE at +P+ 1,300 would be THE 9mm round. It isn't.
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Old January 1, 2021, 09:07 AM   #38
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Quote:
But is the result on target significant?

According to at least one manufacturer, velocity is one element to consider when accessing a round's effectiveness

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady...nal-ballistics
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Old January 2, 2021, 08:00 AM   #39
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Gel is very useful as it provides a uniform media for comparison. However, bad guys are not made of gel. They are made of different tissues with different properties, can be wearing all sorts of different clothing, and tend to be full of bones.

Sure, bullets that behave a certain way in gel might have some general advantages under a certain subset of real-life circumstances. It's important to understand the difference between that and all circumstances. It's also important to understand that what matters for defensive encounters is how a particular bad guy will respond to the effect of a particular bullet on the particular structures within their body under whatever particular set of circumstances that happen to be the case.

So velocity might not be a big factor for a particular bullet type on hits to soft tissue. Is that also true when passing through bone? How about passing through a hand or forearm and then entering a chest cavity? What if it is the only shot you got and it hits something like a hip, thigh, or shoulder? The point is, we shouldn't be quick to write off factors like mass or velocity without adequate modeling for all the possibilities.
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Old January 2, 2021, 04:45 PM   #40
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Vista Outdoors has results for HST and Gold Dots through gel, plywood, windshield glass, and a steel plate...9mm Gold Dot beats Gold Dot 357mag in two of those. Worth checking out.
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Old January 3, 2021, 06:49 AM   #41
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a bit of 10mm experience

If you are buying 'defense' ammo for your 10mm either DoubleTap or BuffaloBore.

Most highly recommend, if shooting people as a civilian, choices include the 135g and 155g only.
The bitch-slappiness of a 135g going 1500--1800fps can not be overstated; can NOT.
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Old January 3, 2021, 12:28 PM   #42
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The context is critical.

Most often, the context is the FBI penetration tests. The thing about the FBI penetration tests is that they provide a hard threshold. Pass the threshold and the FBI (and therefore most of American LE as well as a lot of the people who follow the FBI's lead) consider that ammunition to be suitable personal defense. If the threshold isn't met then the round isn't considered suitable for personal defense.

So, let's take 3 handgun calibers, A, B, and C.

Let's say that A and B vary only slightly in terms of energy, momentum, and bullet diameter but A can not meet the threshold established by the FBI's testing protocol.

Let's say that B and C are quite different in terms of energy, momentum, and bullet diameter and both meet the threshold established by the FBI's testing protocol.

Then A would be considered to be unsuitable for personal defense even though it's quite similar to B.

Both B and C would be considered suitable for personal defense even though they are quite different from each other in just about every way possible. Does that mean they are considered to be equivalent? No, it means they are both considered to be sufficient.
That is an overly simplistic view. One sadly perpetuated by fans of jello testing as a sole tool for determining the best ammo. Of course, I would be remiss if I did not mention that the bullet is really a very small percentage of the total solution.

Bullet construction is equally as important as is energy, caliber or bullet diameter, within reason.

A couple of cases in point. LAPD Officer Lim was shot piont blank in the chest with a 110 grain Winchester 357 magnum. The bullet went thru her heart. Had that been a Remington bullet she likely would have not survived. Why you ask? The Winchester held together, similar to a bonded bullet, A Remington with its thin semi jacket is known to fragment.

A friend of mine shot a carjacker with a +P 45 ACP 230 grn Gold Dot, which literally blew a 3/4" hole thru his heart. He expired after running three blocks.

Long before the FBI protocol was a thing the 357 magnum was working with boring regularity. Even with the FBI protocol people are still soaking up multitudes of service pistol bullets.

Before you go there, yes every gun, cartridge , caliber combination has had failures. I tend to pick the combo's that have the most consistent track record on the street. The lab only gets you so far with theory.
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Old January 3, 2021, 12:31 PM   #43
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If you are buying 'defense' ammo for your 10mm either DoubleTap or BuffaloBore.

Most highly recommend, if shooting people as a civilian, choices include the 135g and 155g only.
The bitch-slappiness of a 135g going 1500--1800fps can not be overstated; can NOT.
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Old January 3, 2021, 06:45 PM   #44
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That is an overly simplistic view.
Of course it is. Basically it's establishing suitability based nearly exclusively on penetration figures.

But he wanted to know how people are somehow discriminating between rounds that perform very similarly and I told him. That's the context that makes sense of the apparent contradictions he was confused about.
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Old January 4, 2021, 04:40 PM   #45
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"A friend of mine shot a carjacker with a +P 45 ACP 230 grn Gold Dot, which literally blew a 3/4" hole thru his heart. He expired after running three blocks."(Nanuk).

I have shot deer through the heart with a rifle and they went over 80 yards on a dead run. Recurve bows and 2 blade broadheads, again, heart shots.. deer still went 35 to 40 yards before dropping. Shot a deer with an Excalibur Crossbow last October, through the heart, and it made it 25 yards. Animals can go quite a ways on pure adrenaline.

Three blocks though, for a heart shot human... and .45 ACP Gold Dot no less??? THREE BLOCKS? What kind of drugs was he on?
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Old January 26, 2021, 12:30 PM   #46
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One thing about the 10mm is that I see the ammo available everywhere. Major bonus these days.
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Old January 26, 2021, 10:42 PM   #47
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Three blocks though, for a heart shot human... and .45 ACP Gold Dot no less??? THREE BLOCKS? What kind of drugs was he on?
Adrenaline
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Old January 26, 2021, 10:48 PM   #48
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But is the result on target significant? All you made mention is an increased FPS.
Of course it is. Energy is the ability to do work.

Quote:
Here's what I mean. The 9mm HST in 147gr +P went 1,000 FPS in the Lucky Gunner test and went as far (20") and expanded as much (.6") as the best 357mag load that went 1,600 FPS. That is a higher FPS change than what you just described. What this shows is the 9mm HST is better as a self defense bullet. Same expansion, same penetration.
Wrong. Street results indicate that your hypothesis is incorrect.

Quote:
600 FPS (!) slower than the Barnes XBP 357mag. Small size. weight didn't make a difference in the two important measures. Speed didn't make a difference. AND that's on top of the fact that Barnes XBP is arguably one of the best bullet type as it is a harder all copper construction.
What?

Quote:
It's not just FPS. In fact, FPS is largely the least important point with these new bullets. At some point, these better bullets DON'T do well with higher FPS. On older bullets it does WORSE because they aren't bonded--ie jacket separates or they break up. On the Silver Tips? Probably good. Can a newer Gold Dot do better with a lower FPS? Absolutely it can.
Theoretically. But it does not represent itself that way in the field. Sure old tech bullets required velocity to work, but they did work very well and still do.

Quote:
If not, Federal 9BPLE at +P+ 1,300 would be THE 9mm round. It isn't.
actually, it is. It was the carry load for most feds who carried 9mm's in the 90's and worked exceptionally well on felons.
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Old January 27, 2021, 02:34 AM   #49
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Vista Outdoors (owns Federal and Speer) posts test up that are used to win LE contracts (ps, they own the DOD contract). https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ba...omparison.aspx

9mm HST bests a Gold Dot in 357mag on lots of occasions in that data. 9mm HST 124gr went 9"(!) more than 357mag Gold Dot in steel and bested 357 in auto glass. And Vista makes both rounds mind you.

On Lucky Gunner, one of the best and hottest 357mag loads (1,600FPS Barnes--one of the best constructed bullets as it's all copper--ie WAY harder than lead) went the same distance and expanded the same as a 9mm HST. HST did all this, beating most 357 loads, without breaking 1,200FPS.


You can hate jello testing all you want, but jello not only levels the field with "all else being equal" medium, it also shows expansion of tissue. No handgun (even super nuke 10mm/357mag) make rifle round damage. And no bullet is designed for that speed anyways. No handgun round does what a 223 Gold Dot does while only reaching 14". And that is why we have expanding bullets in handgun rounds. The point isn't speed, it's expansion.

Being in stats, I appreciate the stories. However, story telling without data isn't what pays big bucks right now
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Old January 27, 2021, 08:13 AM   #50
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Wild cat, I do not hate jello testing, I use it in the proper context. No matter what a bullet may do in water or jello it is how it performs across the board shooting people in various conditions that is important. You seem to hate on any old tech bullets, yet many of the bullets you hate on consistently work in real shootings. It is not a mathematical equation of expansion X penetration. It is a bit more complicated than that.

If you were to use jello to compare say the 125 grn 357 mag SJHP against the 38 special 125 grn LSWC you would see what I mean. Bullet construction, even in the dark ages before the FBI protocols were critical as well. In the 10mm for personal defense are you going to want to use a heavy solid or a lightly built JHP?

I will help you here, A heavy solid is the wrong choice for the application.
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