Up close 'n' personal - Page 2

**Rich Lucibella** · October 29, 1998, 12:24 AM

Rob-
I used to carry a Seecamp (New York reload). At a knife class with one of our lurkers and Hilton, I was asked the circumstances and distances under which I'd use the Seecamp. By the end of the weekend, I'd replaced the Seecamp with a fixed blade, deeming it more effective for the required task(s). YMMV

In a crowded room, handgun rounds can be a real liability; even at conversational distances. Up close and personal, the handgun remains an anemic fight stopper compared to a good fighting knife, utility knife or kitchen knife, in the right hands.

You've alluded to it yourself. Who poses the greatest risk to you at arm's length? The guy with the .38 special or the guy with the fighting knife.
Rich

Kodiac · October 29, 1998, 12:34 AM

I was once stopped on the free way by VA state troopers. I was doing 5 MPH over and the troop was passing me. He must have read the "PEOPLE SUCK" sticker I had on the bumper and the HK logo on the rear window... He hit the breaks - got behind me and hit his party lights.
I had been out of LE for a month then...
He pulled me over, had me put my hands on the hood... and asked if I would consent to a search of my car.
I said "No"
He got bent out of shape and tried to explain to me how unpleasent it would be if I didn't reconsider letting him search.
I asked him to articulate his probable cause as to why he thinks an NRA instructor would have illegal guns or drugs in his car. I hadn't told him who I was, and that I helped this trooper on a search six months prior - he didn't recognize me. Then he saw on the floor of my passenger side... a Shotgun News. He asked if I was in a Militia. I said I WAS the Militia.
The poor guy about lost blood to his brain - it was all sticken out in his viens.
He called back up.
Two other units arrived... The saw me and told the first trooper who I was... Number 1 then got in his car and stewed. for awhile. I had words with the other troopers... and then the first gau came back "Sign this - you know where."
Sucker wrote me for the FIVE OVER...
Can't believe it - he wrote me... for +5... after branding me a threat to humanity.

It got thrown out because he had forgot to give me my pink copy... I didn't remind him either.

Rob Pincus · October 29, 1998, 12:45 AM

The crowded room deal is one reason that I mentioned the HTH training to get into a position to draw and use a weapon. I had to worry about this a lot during a period of time, I chose to carry a .380 with Blasers and train in CQC techniques, conciously focusing on the fact that the gun may not be an option, or require a change in position or closing of distance, even inside a room, before it could be safely employed.

All the good knife training I have recieved has been basically an extension of HTH skills. These same skills without the knife can be used to end a conflict or buy time to use a firearm. That is my preference, as long as I have the choice to carry and use the firearm.

I once got into an argument with a ticket counter employee over the fact that I could kill her with almost everything on her desk (long story.. I'll tell ya sometime... meanwhile, don't try this at your local airport..). That doesn't mean I want to carry a ball point pen or a telephone cord instead of my Glock.

HS · October 29, 1998, 04:41 AM

KODIAC, ha ha ha ha ha, GRIN ! Hey, can I get the video of your offense ? Or better yet, submit it to Americas Funniest Video.

Back to U.C.A.P (new acronym !) Has the use of a Kubuton been accepted as a QCQ tool ? The're all the rage in our club. An innocuous bit of wood on your key ring with the ability to cause great pain and suffering if used correctly and not a metal detector hazard ! Just a thought....HS

Kodiac · October 29, 1998, 10:39 AM

A mini mag lite works well as a kubuton, and in an officers weapon load he will have one or another thing like it, cuffs (yes you can use them as a weapon - if you dont know, I can't tell you), cheical spray (10% Pepper Foam is my favorite), a baton of some sort side handle, expanding ( ASP ), a full sized light - Mag or Stream etc., edged weapons, leather sap (If you don't - try one... they are fun), various backup guns, duty gun, and then the trunk-gun or what ever you call your patrols long gun - of whatever type it is.
There are a lot of weapons an officer has... and there are situations for ALL of them. And he should train with ALL of them.

A citizen on the other hand has his Spyderco Clipit and his Glock 19...

Rob Pincus · October 29, 1998, 11:32 AM

Cuffs are great...

HS · October 30, 1998, 09:07 AM

Rob, cuffs? Beating someone senseless with the bottom part of your trousers would seem impractical !...grin

...HS

fal308 · October 30, 1998, 10:02 AM

HS Maybe he uses a lot of starch

Rob Pincus · October 30, 1998, 11:48 AM

The chinese guy who owns the cleaners told me it was an ancient secret. Lots of starch and hit them with your shin! (I recommend shin pads when you first start training..)

Kodiac · October 30, 1998, 01:18 PM

Rob! SSSHHH! You were not supposed to tell!

Kodiac · October 30, 1998, 01:29 PM

Some one E-mailed me a good idea to consider... they didnt want to post it - but I think it is a great idea, so I will post it - You can claim it if you want:

Big steel ball bearings. They can be thrown most effectively. And the always hit pointy side first.

If your wearing a jacket open on a breazy day, you put them in your jacket pockets and it will keep the jacket weighted down - helping to conceal that Glock 10MM on your hip.

It is worth consideration.
Ever throw a big bearing? They hit hard... and against a human - would probably do more damage than throwing your Spyderco unless you grew up in a circus and can throw and stick knives at will. I sure can't.
I'ld rather take a guy at distance than up close. But up close - in your hand its as good as a roll of quarters.

Mark Cook · October 30, 1998, 01:30 PM

Regarding Kodiac's comment about a "citizen with his SpyderCo Clipit and Glock 19", that's pretty durn close but not enough.

My regular carry is the SpyderCo Endura clipped in my left front pocket (I'm ambi: I knife-fight with my left and shoot right eye/right hand), my Glock 23 in my beltpack, and...

...keep an ASP kubotan (w/ the concealed pepper sprayer built-in) on my keychain. This makes the keychain a *serious* non-lethal weapon. With the pepper spray for distance, and the kubotan and keys-as-flail for up close, I have more self-defense options than most. It makes the 7-11 parking lot at 3AM feel a lot less creepy! :^)

Regards,

- Mark C.
Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
Front Sight First Family member #1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * [email protected]
Phone: 541-753-2732 Fax: 541-753-2738 http://www.ssgfx.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

HS · October 30, 1998, 05:27 PM

Kodiac et al. Imagine this scene: Big tough guy is sittin' in his prison cell, all the scum are talkin' 'bout how they come to be there. He has to relate how some guy " Balled" him to submission. Guess who's gonna be the "wife" in that cell ! ha ha ha ha ....HS

Spectre · October 30, 1998, 05:54 PM

Even more explainable to interested LEO is a baseball...and, be careful where you throw your ball bearings. I can't find any of mine...

Rob Pincus · October 31, 1998, 01:39 AM

True story:

I was pulled over in NJ (do you sense a recurring theme, yet?) and when I opened my glove compartment the "officer" (summer cop in a shore town...) asked my to remove the "metal object." It was the key to the lock-lug on my wheels. He claimed that becuase of its wieght it was consider a weapon in NJ and I should keep it locked in the trunk. Then a sergeant showed up and told him he was basically a complete freakin idiot and to tell me to have a good evening.

AND, if I was carrying around big steel balls my wife would definitely wonder what I was up to.

HS · October 31, 1998, 05:40 AM

OK, which one of you stole my RUBBER TREE? - Mr Queeg (clack..clack)

[This message has been edited by HS (edited 10-31-98).]

HS · October 31, 1998, 05:47 AM

Nothin' to do with CLOSE Q.C but worth mentioning. Ice Cubes launched from a SLINGSHOT. Hit real hard and don't leave a trace in summer. We have to be inventive in Aus. since they took 1/2 our toys away...grin

...HS

**Rich Lucibella** · October 31, 1998, 09:14 AM

Rob-
I can see the headlines now: Third Vigilante Attack by the Ben Wa Killer.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-31-98).]

Rob Pincus · October 31, 1998, 12:28 PM

Thank you, Rich! Now I can stop trying to figure out waht I am going to be for Halloween!

Ed Brunner · October 31, 1998, 07:50 PM

Why do you guys keep getting stopped by the police?????

Kodiac · October 31, 1998, 11:54 PM

Well, when your used to driving code 2 every place to go... It becomes a habit...

**Rich Lucibella** · November 1, 1998, 12:30 AM

Sorry, guys. Time too lock this one down. Some people have slow modems and the download is unusually long. I think this topic is done.
Thanks for the input. By all means start a new thread on the subject, if you wish.
Rich Lucibella

October 29, 1998, 12:24 AM	#26
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Rob- I used to carry a Seecamp (New York reload). At a knife class with one of our lurkers and Hilton, I was asked the circumstances and distances under which I'd use the Seecamp. By the end of the weekend, I'd replaced the Seecamp with a fixed blade, deeming it more effective for the required task(s). YMMV In a crowded room, handgun rounds can be a real liability; even at conversational distances. Up close and personal, the handgun remains an anemic fight stopper compared to a good fighting knife, utility knife or kitchen knife, in the right hands. You've alluded to it yourself. Who poses the greatest risk to you at arm's length? The guy with the .38 special or the guy with the fighting knife. Rich

October 29, 1998, 12:34 AM	#27
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	I was once stopped on the free way by VA state troopers. I was doing 5 MPH over and the troop was passing me. He must have read the "PEOPLE SUCK" sticker I had on the bumper and the HK logo on the rear window... He hit the breaks - got behind me and hit his party lights. I had been out of LE for a month then... He pulled me over, had me put my hands on the hood... and asked if I would consent to a search of my car. I said "No" He got bent out of shape and tried to explain to me how unpleasent it would be if I didn't reconsider letting him search. I asked him to articulate his probable cause as to why he thinks an NRA instructor would have illegal guns or drugs in his car. I hadn't told him who I was, and that I helped this trooper on a search six months prior - he didn't recognize me. Then he saw on the floor of my passenger side... a Shotgun News. He asked if I was in a Militia. I said I WAS the Militia. The poor guy about lost blood to his brain - it was all sticken out in his viens. He called back up. Two other units arrived... The saw me and told the first trooper who I was... Number 1 then got in his car and stewed. for awhile. I had words with the other troopers... and then the first gau came back "Sign this - you know where." Sucker wrote me for the FIVE OVER... Can't believe it - he wrote me... for +5... after branding me a threat to humanity. It got thrown out because he had forgot to give me my pink copy... I didn't remind him either.

October 29, 1998, 12:45 AM	#28
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	The crowded room deal is one reason that I mentioned the HTH training to get into a position to draw and use a weapon. I had to worry about this a lot during a period of time, I chose to carry a .380 with Blasers and train in CQC techniques, conciously focusing on the fact that the gun may not be an option, or require a change in position or closing of distance, even inside a room, before it could be safely employed. All the good knife training I have recieved has been basically an extension of HTH skills. These same skills without the knife can be used to end a conflict or buy time to use a firearm. That is my preference, as long as I have the choice to carry and use the firearm. I once got into an argument with a ticket counter employee over the fact that I could kill her with almost everything on her desk (long story.. I'll tell ya sometime... meanwhile, don't try this at your local airport..). That doesn't mean I want to carry a ball point pen or a telephone cord instead of my Glock.

October 29, 1998, 04:41 AM	#29
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	KODIAC, ha ha ha ha ha, GRIN ! Hey, can I get the video of your offense ? Or better yet, submit it to Americas Funniest Video. Back to U.C.A.P (new acronym !) Has the use of a Kubuton been accepted as a QCQ tool ? The're all the rage in our club. An innocuous bit of wood on your key ring with the ability to cause great pain and suffering if used correctly and not a metal detector hazard ! Just a thought....HS

October 29, 1998, 10:39 AM	#30
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	A mini mag lite works well as a kubuton, and in an officers weapon load he will have one or another thing like it, cuffs (yes you can use them as a weapon - if you dont know, I can't tell you), cheical spray (10% Pepper Foam is my favorite), a baton of some sort side handle, expanding ( ASP ), a full sized light - Mag or Stream etc., edged weapons, leather sap (If you don't - try one... they are fun), various backup guns, duty gun, and then the trunk-gun or what ever you call your patrols long gun - of whatever type it is. There are a lot of weapons an officer has... and there are situations for ALL of them. And he should train with ALL of them. A citizen on the other hand has his Spyderco Clipit and his Glock 19...

October 29, 1998, 11:32 AM	#31
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Cuffs are great...

October 30, 1998, 09:07 AM	#32
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	Rob, cuffs? Beating someone senseless with the bottom part of your trousers would seem impractical !...grin ...HS

October 30, 1998, 10:02 AM	#33
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	HS Maybe he uses a lot of starch

October 30, 1998, 11:48 AM	#34
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	The chinese guy who owns the cleaners told me it was an ancient secret. Lots of starch and hit them with your shin! (I recommend shin pads when you first start training..)

October 30, 1998, 01:18 PM	#35
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	Rob! SSSHHH! You were not supposed to tell!

October 30, 1998, 01:29 PM	#36
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	Some one E-mailed me a good idea to consider... they didnt want to post it - but I think it is a great idea, so I will post it - You can claim it if you want: Big steel ball bearings. They can be thrown most effectively. And the always hit pointy side first. If your wearing a jacket open on a breazy day, you put them in your jacket pockets and it will keep the jacket weighted down - helping to conceal that Glock 10MM on your hip. It is worth consideration. Ever throw a big bearing? They hit hard... and against a human - would probably do more damage than throwing your Spyderco unless you grew up in a circus and can throw and stick knives at will. I sure can't. I'ld rather take a guy at distance than up close. But up close - in your hand its as good as a roll of quarters.

October 30, 1998, 01:30 PM	#37
Mark Cook Junior Member Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Corvallis, OR Posts: 4	Regarding Kodiac's comment about a "citizen with his SpyderCo Clipit and Glock 19", that's pretty durn close but not enough. My regular carry is the SpyderCo Endura clipped in my left front pocket (I'm ambi: I knife-fight with my left and shoot right eye/right hand), my Glock 23 in my beltpack, and... ...keep an ASP kubotan (w/ the concealed pepper sprayer built-in) on my keychain. This makes the keychain a serious non-lethal weapon. With the pepper spray for distance, and the kubotan and keys-as-flail for up close, I have more self-defense options than most. It makes the 7-11 parking lot at 3AM feel a lot less creepy! :^) Regards, - Mark C. Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75 Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life) Front Sight First Family member #1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * [email protected] Phone: 541-753-2732 Fax: 541-753-2738 http://www.ssgfx.com -----------------------------------------------------------------------

October 30, 1998, 05:27 PM	#38
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	Kodiac et al. Imagine this scene: Big tough guy is sittin' in his prison cell, all the scum are talkin' 'bout how they come to be there. He has to relate how some guy " Balled" him to submission. Guess who's gonna be the "wife" in that cell ! ha ha ha ha ....HS

October 30, 1998, 05:54 PM	#39
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Even more explainable to interested LEO is a baseball...and, be careful where you throw your ball bearings. I can't find any of mine...

October 31, 1998, 01:39 AM	#40
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	True story: I was pulled over in NJ (do you sense a recurring theme, yet?) and when I opened my glove compartment the "officer" (summer cop in a shore town...) asked my to remove the "metal object." It was the key to the lock-lug on my wheels. He claimed that becuase of its wieght it was consider a weapon in NJ and I should keep it locked in the trunk. Then a sergeant showed up and told him he was basically a complete freakin idiot and to tell me to have a good evening. AND, if I was carrying around big steel balls my wife would definitely wonder what I was up to.

October 31, 1998, 05:40 AM	#41
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	OK, which one of you stole my RUBBER TREE? - Mr Queeg (clack..clack) [This message has been edited by HS (edited 10-31-98).]

October 31, 1998, 05:47 AM	#42
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	Nothin' to do with CLOSE Q.C but worth mentioning. Ice Cubes launched from a SLINGSHOT. Hit real hard and don't leave a trace in summer. We have to be inventive in Aus. since they took 1/2 our toys away...grin ...HS

October 31, 1998, 09:14 AM	#43
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Rob- I can see the headlines now: Third Vigilante Attack by the Ben Wa Killer. Rich [This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-31-98).]

October 31, 1998, 12:28 PM	#44
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Thank you, Rich! Now I can stop trying to figure out waht I am going to be for Halloween!

October 31, 1998, 07:50 PM	#45
Ed Brunner Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Natchez, MS, USA Posts: 2,562	Why do you guys keep getting stopped by the police?????

October 31, 1998, 11:54 PM	#46
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	Well, when your used to driving code 2 every place to go... It becomes a habit...

November 1, 1998, 12:30 AM	#47
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Sorry, guys. Time too lock this one down. Some people have slow modems and the download is unusually long. I think this topic is done. Thanks for the input. By all means start a new thread on the subject, if you wish. Rich Lucibella