Actively assisting police

[JN01]

Non-law enforcement people usually arm themselves for their own defense or that of their family. As being licensed to carry does not make one a cop, it is generally advised not to try being a hero and stopping a crime in progress.

There was a incident from Monday in Dayton, Ohio, where this was not the case.
CPL holder and off-duty cop intervene in a drug deal gone bad.

An off-duty police officer and a male CCW permit holder, who were in the area to check on the commotion, confronted one of the fleeing groups. One of two people in this group threw down a firearm, which police later seized.
“Both the off-duty officer and the CCW permit holder confronted both of these subjects as they were walking away. One did have a gun in his hand. (The off-duty officer and the CCW Permit holder) gave them orders to get down on the ground. At which point, they fled,”

Full story: http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...-dayton/nk4Mq/

I could see intervening in very limited circumstances (i.e. an officer is disabled and being beaten to death, etc), but it would seem you would be opening a big can of liability issues acting as a wannabe cop.

[OldMarksman]

What is the question?

[TailGator]

The information about the sequence of events is very incomplete, but my first thought is that confronting an armed group of people fleeing the scene of active gunfire is not a job for one or two people, regardless of their qualifications.

One is left to wonder whether the off-duty officer and the CCL holder were working together or each tried to intervene separately. If the latter, things could have gone very badly; if the former, one has to wonder how the officer identified the CCL holder as an armed person available for assistance.

It would take a quite unusual set of circumstances for me to insert myself into such a situation.

Overall, way more questions than answers available in the write-up.

[JN01]

What is the question?

Where would you draw the line on getting involved or not?

Overall, way more questions than answers available in the write-up.

Yeah, not exactly a shining example of journalism. I wonder if they were involved in a neighborhood watch program.

[FireForged]

Me personally, I would not want to cause the officer to split his attention between potential badguys and what the heck I might be doing as a CC citizen. If a LEO is not on the losing end of a confrontation or has not asked for my assistance... I would not likely get involved.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by JN01

Where would you draw the line on getting involved or not?

These kinds of questions come up regularly, and there is really no simple answer. It all depends on exactly what is happening and how it is happening.

Also remember that there are ways to help at a critical incident other than using your gun. Call in a report. Take some photos with your cell phone to preserve evidence. Help get innocent people to safety. The point is that if you want to help, you need to do things that actually help -- not make things worse.

[RAfiringline]

JN01,

Assuming he's not laying on the ground shot or beaten, the problem with "helping" a cop(s) in a dangerous situation is the cop(s) doesn't know who you are, whether you're actually trying to help or perhaps confuse and abet, or whether you're reliable or some nitwit who's going to get people shot unnecessarily.

If I saw a situation that I was willing to intervene in, I would identify myself to the police and state I was willing to assist if they requested it.

[Rifleman 173]

Be very careful of getting involved with the police because they are covered by insurance. You probably are not. If something had gone bad in the situation you're telling us about, the citizen could be sued and lose everything that he owns if he doesn't have insurance or if his state doesn't have a Good Samaritan Law in place. Liability is a dangerous thing when you talk about criminals, arrests and gunplay.

[4V50 Gary]

I'd only intervene if the officer's life was in danger.

Remember, you can be mistaken for a bad guy and be shot by the police. There are no shortage of incidents where off duty officers or plainclothes officers are shot by their fellow officers (even from the same agency).

[g.willikers]

And vice-versa.
Off duty police are not usually in uniform.
How would one know if the guy claiming to be a cop really is?
It could be like a domestic situation, only with competing drug dealers willing to shoot one another.
Caution is definitely called for.

[Bultaco]

I don't think I would even approach a situation where LEO is working. If he is not in uniform and on the ground or some other obvious danger I would keep my distance and go about my day. Trying to help in any but the most dire of circumstances could go wrong in so many different ways it would be hard to list them all.

[Limnophile]

Learn the laws of your state. In mine one is allowed to assist the police if requested to do so and acting under an officer's orders. One is also empowered to make a citizen's arrest and use a reasonable amount of force to detain the perp until police arrive and take custody. As I recall, to make a citizen's arrest for a misdeamenor we must witness the commission of the crime. Regardless, if a citizen's arrest is made wrongly (except one under the orders of an officer) kiss your bank account goodbye.

I think it would be advisable for your safety and to avoid confusion for the police to stay out of a police action unless you are asked by an officer to assist, or unless an officer is in imminent danger of loss of life or grievous bodily harm.

[TXAZ]

Not a LEO but work with a bunch of them. My guide is "If an officer asks for help" or is obviously in immediate need. Otherwise as others suggested, call 911, take pics and stay out of the way.

Beyond that as Frank indicated, this can get complicated quickly, "above your scope of training" as our lawyer has noted.

As Rifleman noted the officers are setup with legal support, insurance (paid by you) and generally the good will of(most of) the public.
You may not enjoy such luxuries is such an event.

[TXAZ]

Here is a current example I'd proffer shows the downside of asynchronously trying to help. Can we carefully extend some of these comments above based on the events in Garland Texas this weekend?

If you are a Texas CHL, when the shooting started, and you do NOT know there were 40 officers (some not in uniform) including snipers, what do you think would happen if you pulled your lawful CHL weapon in view of officers and SWAT snipers?

My guess is nothing positive, and a potential tragic downside.

[T. O'Heir]

As much as I wouldn't think twice about helping a cop in need(even though they're way over paid up here. Over 90 grand per annum.), that isn't the case here. Sounds like an over zealous cop who should have called the office and a "civilian" who watches too much TV. Said civilian could have been jumped on from a high height or possibly shot by other cops arriving on the scene.
The over zealous cop has very likely been counseled by his higher ups and warned about liability issues at the very least.

[Moomooboo]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

As much as I wouldn't think twice about helping a cop in need(even though they're way over paid up here. Over 90 grand per annum.), that isn't the case here. Sounds like an over zealous cop who should have called the office and a "civilian" who watches too much TV. Said civilian could have been jumped on from a high height or possibly shot by other cops arriving on the scene.
The over zealous cop has very likely been counseled by his higher ups and warned about liability issues at the very least.

Have any evidence of that? I have friends in NYPD and SDPD which are high cost locales but they dont hit that.

[Doc TH]

You mention an off-duty officer. How can you be sure the plainclothes guy/gal you are trying to help is a police officer? How can assisting officers know that you are a "helpful" citizen and not a perp? Jumping into a situation like that in the absence of absolute certainty seems to be a very bad idea that could get you shot.

[2ndsojourn]

You know, I don't need or want someone I don't know come into my workplace or jobsite and start working or offer to help when I have no idea of who they are or what their capabilities are. Stay out of my way and let me do my job. I'm sure police feel the same way about their job. I have no problem with someone self-performing their own work for themselves, and I'm sure most police have no problem with law abiding armed citizens taking self defense into their own hands. But I'll stand back and let them do their job and they can stand back and let me do mine.

[TimSr]

I always figured I could best assist the police by not assisting the police and not distracting them. Other than that, note details and prepare to be a good witness, or offer timely information that you might have seen that the officers might have missed such as "he went that way".

In the extremely rare case that they would want, need, or ask for my help in a desperate situation, I would answer the call, but the odds if that happening in real life are pretty extreme.

[doofus47]

I always put myself in the police officer's place: if someone I don't know shows up waving/firing a gun while I"m handling an existing threat, she/he's potentiall/probably a bad guy.
The next logical step: "Seems I'm facing a bagful of bad guys; better rev up the Glock."

If an officer were down, that might be another scenario, but I'd tread gingerly during a police altercation. I'd probably tread in the other direction.

[JN01]

An off-duty police officer and a male CCW permit holder, who were in the area to check on the commotion

This makes it sound like they were working in concert, perhaps they already knew each other.

I was hoping someone from the Dayton area might be able to shed more light on exactly what happened.

My personal view is to stay out of a situation, unless it is a clear cut, life and death situation and I felt I could effectively help. For example a few years back there was an incident were a lunatic was sitting on top of a uniformed cop, who was barely conscious, beating him to death. An armed citizen stepped in, ordered the bad guy to cease and desist to no avail, and ended up having to shoot him multiple times to make him stop, saving the cop's life.

[johnelmore]

There are some rural areas of the nation where the local police force is lacking. I know in some places it takes an officer an hour to respond. For example, so lets say you are that officer responding and have to drive 30 minutes to get there. You have no backup so you get the assistance of a local rancher who has a shotgun. See? Now that scenario makes sense. Even in some suburban communities the police are lacking so an officer might call on a well known neighbor to back them up.

If an officer needs assistance I have heard its best to ask before getting involved. For example, the officer is fighting someone. You yell out, do you need help? They will then yell back a response...

[BigMikey76]

When a LEO is performing his or her duty, the best place to be is out of the way. Be a witness, provide testimony, be on the phone with 911, etc., but active involvement is not my cup of tea. The LEO's duty is to protect the public from the BG; mine is to let him or her do that job without interference. The last thing they need is to be worrying about the safety of a "helpful" civilian, no matter how good their intentions are.

If the LEO is incapacitated, and in imminent danger, OK, that is different. Then it is the same as coming to the assistance of any other violent crime victim whose life is being threatened. Short of that extreme situation, though, stay on the bench and let the first stringers handle it.

[johnelmore]

The events at Garland took place in a gun free zone. There were metal detectors at the door and Im not certain but I suspect they might have addressed that in the invitation that went out. So I dont think anyone brought their pistol to the event though I could be wrong.

Thats a good question as to what to do when and how to whip out the concealed carry pistol. Im certain that can be discussed in many pages and people have turned that question into a days long course. When in doubt, use common sense. Im certain the officers will be using common sense.. Hopefully.

[Skans]

Where would you draw the line on getting involved or not?

I will render aid to someone who is hurt and try and get help for the person.

I will call the police if I witness a crime.

I will not just "walk on by" if a stranger is getting raped, mugged, etc. - would try to call the police; might yell out, but I'm not going to try and pull a man or group of guys off of a woman.

I will not interject myself with a gun into an ongoing robbery unless it was taking place within 5 feet of me and I felt my life was in danger too.

I will take whatever action is necessary and which I can to protect my child and wife from physical harm.

I will not investigate a possible burglary, rape, murder, drug crime, etc. on another person's property - I would call the police.

If the police are already on the scene, I'm not doing anything unless my life is imminent danger.