Negligent Discharge. - Page 3

Bartholomew Roberts · August 28, 2016, 03:27 PM

Quote:

As I read the OP, his perception, wrong as it might be (thus his conundrum) was that he thought he was exercising due care and doing what he thought was the right thing and in his exercising what he thought was due care eliminated negligence on his part.

That's where I feel we are missing the "teaching moment" the OP took the courage to share with us. The OP checked the chamber but failed to identify that the chamber was not empty. The OP has already discussed several ways he feels he could improve that process (having his glasses, etc.). Some of us have added others (tactile check of the chamber).

My concern is some of the members here see this as something that can't be prevented even after the person involved is explaining ways in which they can avoid having this happen to them - and the perception that this is an unforeseeable event that cannot be prevented by due care is part of why I feel they are misding that.

I'm not saying the OP needs to be dipped in tar and hung from a gibbet for being irresponsible. Lord knows we all have had our negiligent moments in life - and because the OP had the presence of mind to keep a safe direction, minor property damage and ego were the only things hurt. But we do need to recognize where the process failed and give some thought to learning from the OP's mistake so we don't have to learn from our own - and a key part of that is recognizing a mistake was made and that it wasn't random bad luck.

armedleo · August 28, 2016, 03:37 PM

Excellent point. And great thread.

K_Mac · August 28, 2016, 03:42 PM

armedleo the definition of negligence has already been given in this thread a couple of times. It is failure to exercise proper care in doing something. You don't need the NRA or your training manual to validate that. The firing of this round unintentionally does not mean it wasn't negligent. A chambered round was unintentionally fired when the trigger was pressed. The trigger was pressed intentionally. Was proper care taken?

danez71 · August 28, 2016, 04:19 PM

Quote:

armedleo the definition of negligence has already been given in this thread a couple of times. It is failure to exercise proper care in doing something.

Well if we're going to get all technical, no, the definition hasn't been given.

Only a paraphrased version of the definition has been given.

Quote:

The omission to do something which a reasonable man, guided by those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do. or doing something which a prudent and reasonable man would not do. It must be determined in all cases by reference to the situation and knowledge of the parties and all the attendant circumstances.

Law Dictionary: What is NEGLIGENCE? definition of NEGLIGENCE (Black's Law Dictionary)

'Proper' isn't in the definition. If it was, most everything would be considered either negligent or an act of God.

Instead, 'reasonable' is used in the definition of negligence and negligent.

(I won't even get into the definition of Gross Negligence other than to say it doesn't have the word Proper in it either.)

If we want to get all technical on the nomenclature, we 1st need to determine if a reasonable man would think racking the slide a couple times with out a mag and looking at the chamber is enough.

Or would a reasonable man think that you should be running a bright red rod down the barrel and into the chamber and both visually see the red rod in the chamber and tactically feel the rod is what should be considered reasonable.

Then we could debate for pages and pages what 'reasonable' means and how something is deemed reasonable.

Or.... we can talk about the best ways to avoid this scenario.

K_Mac · August 28, 2016, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Negligence
Definition

A failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances. The behavior usually consists of actions, but can also consist of omissions when there is some duty to act (e.g., a duty to help victims of one's previous conduct).

The above is the definition given online by Cornell University Law School. The definition I gave was not a paraphrase. It is a direct quote from the online source connected to this app, Google I assume. We can argue about what proper care, responsible, and prudent mean, or we can agree that the discharge of a weapon due to overlooking a chambered round and intentionally pressing the trigger would not be proper care, responsible, or prudent.

Bartholomew said it well. I will give him my last word on this:

Quote:

I'm not saying the OP needs to be dipped in tar and hung from a gibbet for being irresponsible. Lord knows we all have had our negiligent moments in life - and because the OP had the presence of mind to keep a safe direction, minor property damage and ego were the only things hurt. But we do need to recognize where the process failed and give some thought to learning from the OP's mistake so we don't have to learn from our own - and a key part of that is recognizing a mistake was made and that it wasn't random bad luck.

j3ffr0 · August 28, 2016, 08:32 PM

Anyone can have a bad day -- this could happen to anyone. This thread is a good reminder of that. I'm glad no one was hurt.

I was taught to always run my finger through the chamber to do a feel check in addition to a visual check. I do my best to make that a habit. I know that visual perception is a tricky thing. The human brain does one heck1 of a job of redrawing the image in our minds eye as we expect to see it rather than how it actually is.

Koda94 · August 28, 2016, 08:37 PM

I applaud the OP for bringing this up. I learned from this thread about checking the chamber and not relying on only racking the slide and adding tactile feedback with the visual.

I also learned I don’t care what its called, if you did not intend for the round to fire then it doesn’t matter to me what its called, its a bad thing.

armedleo · August 28, 2016, 08:47 PM

K Mac, thank you for educating me on the definition of negligence. I wasn't actually seeking a definition from the NRA or a training manual.

What I was curious to know is when did we replace the more conventionally recognized term of Accidental Discharge with Negligent Discharge? I just can't find the terminology among firearms literature or instructors. I've been doing this sort of thing, like investigating ADs and non-contact police shootings, for a long while now and the only people that measure (or try to measure) culpability with negligence are the prosecuting attorneys who review the case.

Most, if not all, traffic accidents are avoidable. But we don't automatically label them negligence. However, some do rise to a level of negligence, including criminal or culpable negligence. A guy obeys the speed limit while driving thru a school zone and a kid runs out and is struck. That's an accident, albeit somehow likely avoidable. Same guy, same scenario, but now he's traveling 30 in a 15 MPH school zone. That's negligence.

**JohnKSa** · August 28, 2016, 09:12 PM

Quote:

What I was curious to know is when did we replace the more conventionally recognized term of Accidental Discharge with Negligent Discharge?

I don't know exactly when it happened, but I believe the original, well-intentioned push came to help gun owners understand that the vast majority of unintentional discharges are the result of negligence.

The problem that resulted is twofold:

1. There ARE some unintentional discharges which are not negligent and therefore it's inaccurate to state that all accidental/unintentional discharges are negligent.

2. The attempt to redefine words that already have well-established meanings has turned virtually any discussion about unintentional discharges into a discussion of terminology which distracts from the actual lessons learned.

armedleo · August 28, 2016, 09:32 PM

JohnKSa, you've articulated my point better than I have. And I think Bartholomew stated it quite wisely.

WyMark · August 28, 2016, 10:05 PM

I've had several unintentional discharges with my P228, sending them into the ceiling at indoor ranges and over the berm at outdoor. They were all in the form of unintentional "double taps", and came so fast after my first shot that the muzzle was still pointed up for the recoil of the previous shot.

Took me a while to figure it out, but I was shooting a couple hundred rounds of .22 from my Mosquito before picking up the P228. Somehow the difference in trigger reset, recoil and muscle memory was causing me to pull the trigger a second time completely unintentionally. I call those accidental discharges, and I don't shoot my Mosquito before my P228 any more.

Negligence would be if I continued to shoot the Mosquito first, knowing that that it would cause an unintended discharge of the P228.

K_Mac · August 28, 2016, 10:56 PM

WyMark I said I was done, but I can't help but ask if it wasn't negligent after the first round went into the ceiling or over the berm? Didn't you have an obligation to figure out what was happening and why before endangering others? "Several" unexplained, unintentional discharges with those results are not simple accidental discharges in my opinion. I am glad you figured it out though.

WyMark · August 29, 2016, 08:22 PM

K_Mac, I would have to agree with your assessment. I dry fired the 228 hundreds of times to try and figure it out. I fired hundreds of rounds trying to figure out if it was a problem with me or the gun. I could never reproduce it, but then every once it a while it would just unexpectedly happen. What I meant by "several" was 4 or 5 instances over a probably 2 year period, I don't normally shoot both .22 and 9mm on the same range trip.

In hindsight I felt like a total idiot for not putting it together much sooner, that it only happened when I fired a couple hundred rounds from the Mosquito before firing the 228. That doesn't ever happen any more.

K_Mac · August 29, 2016, 10:28 PM

WyMark I will turn 60 in a couple of days, and I can look back and find many examples of decisions and actions that if I knew then what I do now, I would have done things differently. I think that the best we can hope for is to learn from our mistakes. I like the 228, although I don't own one. Glad you were able to master the little fella!

Jim567 · August 30, 2016, 02:00 PM

Still stinging after a week from this.

Two more things I want to include.

Without going into detail, prior, I had had a very bad day. I was a bit frazzled.

The shell casing was " dirty " black carbon kind of, on the sides of the case. It was a subsonic round.

Tired and frazzled -- I will always be aware to be more aware in that state now.

The case - I have no idea. It was a clean chamber and the round didn't go in that way.

Bottom line -- I didn't properly confirm.

August 28, 2016, 03:42 PM	#53
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	armedleo the definition of negligence has already been given in this thread a couple of times. It is failure to exercise proper care in doing something. You don't need the NRA or your training manual to validate that. The firing of this round unintentionally does not mean it wasn't negligent. A chambered round was unintentionally fired when the trigger was pressed. The trigger was pressed intentionally. Was proper care taken? __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

August 28, 2016, 08:37 PM	#57
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,294	I applaud the OP for bringing this up. I learned from this thread about checking the chamber and not relying on only racking the slide and adding tactile feedback with the visual. I also learned I don’t care what its called, if you did not intend for the round to fire then it doesn’t matter to me what its called, its a bad thing. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

August 28, 2016, 08:47 PM	#58
armedleo Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2015 Posts: 265	K Mac, thank you for educating me on the definition of negligence. I wasn't actually seeking a definition from the NRA or a training manual. What I was curious to know is when did we replace the more conventionally recognized term of Accidental Discharge with Negligent Discharge? I just can't find the terminology among firearms literature or instructors. I've been doing this sort of thing, like investigating ADs and non-contact police shootings, for a long while now and the only people that measure (or try to measure) culpability with negligence are the prosecuting attorneys who review the case. Most, if not all, traffic accidents are avoidable. But we don't automatically label them negligence. However, some do rise to a level of negligence, including criminal or culpable negligence. A guy obeys the speed limit while driving thru a school zone and a kid runs out and is struck. That's an accident, albeit somehow likely avoidable. Same guy, same scenario, but now he's traveling 30 in a 15 MPH school zone. That's negligence. Last edited by armedleo; August 28, 2016 at 09:58 PM.

August 28, 2016, 10:56 PM	#62
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	WyMark I said I was done, but I can't help but ask if it wasn't negligent after the first round went into the ceiling or over the berm? Didn't you have an obligation to figure out what was happening and why before endangering others? "Several" unexplained, unintentional discharges with those results are not simple accidental discharges in my opinion. I am glad you figured it out though. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

August 29, 2016, 10:28 PM	#64
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	WyMark I will turn 60 in a couple of days, and I can look back and find many examples of decisions and actions that if I knew then what I do now, I would have done things differently. I think that the best we can hope for is to learn from our mistakes. I like the 228, although I don't own one. Glad you were able to master the little fella! __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

August 28, 2016, 03:37 PM	#52
armedleo Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2015 Posts: 265	Excellent point. And great thread.

August 28, 2016, 08:32 PM	#56
j3ffr0 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2012 Location: VA Posts: 199	Anyone can have a bad day -- this could happen to anyone. This thread is a good reminder of that. I'm glad no one was hurt. I was taught to always run my finger through the chamber to do a feel check in addition to a visual check. I do my best to make that a habit. I know that visual perception is a tricky thing. The human brain does one heck1 of a job of redrawing the image in our minds eye as we expect to see it rather than how it actually is.

August 28, 2016, 09:32 PM	#60
armedleo Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2015 Posts: 265	JohnKSa, you've articulated my point better than I have. And I think Bartholomew stated it quite wisely.

August 28, 2016, 10:05 PM	#61
WyMark Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 647	I've had several unintentional discharges with my P228, sending them into the ceiling at indoor ranges and over the berm at outdoor. They were all in the form of unintentional "double taps", and came so fast after my first shot that the muzzle was still pointed up for the recoil of the previous shot. Took me a while to figure it out, but I was shooting a couple hundred rounds of .22 from my Mosquito before picking up the P228. Somehow the difference in trigger reset, recoil and muscle memory was causing me to pull the trigger a second time completely unintentionally. I call those accidental discharges, and I don't shoot my Mosquito before my P228 any more. Negligence would be if I continued to shoot the Mosquito first, knowing that that it would cause an unintended discharge of the P228.

August 29, 2016, 08:22 PM	#63
WyMark Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 647	K_Mac, I would have to agree with your assessment. I dry fired the 228 hundreds of times to try and figure it out. I fired hundreds of rounds trying to figure out if it was a problem with me or the gun. I could never reproduce it, but then every once it a while it would just unexpectedly happen. What I meant by "several" was 4 or 5 instances over a probably 2 year period, I don't normally shoot both .22 and 9mm on the same range trip. In hindsight I felt like a total idiot for not putting it together much sooner, that it only happened when I fired a couple hundred rounds from the Mosquito before firing the 228. That doesn't ever happen any more.

August 30, 2016, 02:00 PM	#65
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Still stinging after a week from this. Two more things I want to include. Without going into detail, prior, I had had a very bad day. I was a bit frazzled. The shell casing was " dirty " black carbon kind of, on the sides of the case. It was a subsonic round. Tired and frazzled -- I will always be aware to be more aware in that state now. The case - I have no idea. It was a clean chamber and the round didn't go in that way. Bottom line -- I didn't properly confirm.