What kind of handgun did the gunman used to kill the United Healthcare CEO?

[TunnelRat]

My point wasn’t so much how I felt, but that there are a number of people who go through that process regardless of the hassle.

The point I was responding to was your question of why does everything have to be a conspiracy. I’ve explained why I don’t think you have to believe in a conspiracy to be curious about this topic. I did so because I thought you were implying that 44 AMP was literally suggesting there was a conspiracy (maybe you were just using it as an expression). I have nothing against your own theory.

I will point out much of this is based on the assumption that this firearm may have been bought or made for this crime. We still don’t know if that’s true, unless there’s a timeline I haven’t seen.

[44 AMP]

I am not suggesting any conspiracy (unless you accept a conspiracy of one ) but until positively ruled out by incontrovertible evidence (and more than just statements made by the accused - who could lie..) then everything, no matter how unlikely or implausible, is possible.

So, it is possible he built the gun and the silencer himself, using a combination of factory made and 3d printed parts.

it is also possible someone else did, and he acquired them, possibly bought, borrowed, gifted, or stolen.

Each of those opens further areas of speculation, but that's all they do.

Personally, I wonder why he went with a 3d printed frame. I don't completely buy the reasoning it was to avoid an official paper trail. While it does do that, so would buying a standard production gun on the black market.

Unless he makes a statement explaining why he chose what he chose, we're completely in the dark, and even if he does make such a statement, it could well be false...

A cold gun, a silencer, pseudonyms; because that is what Expert Assassins DO, that is why.

Yes, that seems to be what Expert Assassins do, and that can be learned from a few hours of watching Tv/movies or reading a few novels on the subject, if you can get past the fact that they are fiction....

[Shoots Left]

Luigi obviously has the red*ss for health insurance company execs if the ‘manifesto’ I saw on one site is the real deal. He probably binge watched a bunch of Charles Bronson movies one night and decided that he could actually pull this off.

I believe that the reasoning behind using the unregistered gun, the various aliases and other surreptitious actions were because he actually did think that he was going to get away with it. I don’t think that Brian Thompson was the exclamation point of this exercise; I think that Mr. Thompson was just the beginning of an anticipated spree.

Luigi was probably plotting hit #2 as he was enjoying his Happy Meal© there in the Altoona Mickey D’s.

My 2¢

[wild cat mccane]

7th largest company in the world that only profits when more money goes in that goes out that is an intermediary (not the actual provider) to the world's largest non public health system.

I don't think AMP was saying there was a conspiracy. But if anyone is hunting for a conspiracy...you're probably the middle unwell that is copayed out of some pretty low level therapy. This isn't rocket surgery.

Even the UnitedHealth Group CEO said today America insurance is forked.

That's not me justifying. That's me saying...anything you think that radicalized or some odd conspiracy...it's truly amazing that we forget this has happened before to insurance leaders before.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Personally, I would feel more comfortable with the information in the link if it wasn't NBC reporting it. Pardon my skepticism, but I still remember when NBC rigged pickup trucks to explode, and passed video of that to the public saying it was a design flaw.

Wasn't that CBS? I'm pretty certain I remember that show. I think it was 60 Minutes, and I believe Mike Wallace narrated the segment of that show. The truck they blew up was a Chevrolet full-size pickup.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Does everything have to be a conspiracy?

Maybe we could just look at the facts and see if they take us somewhere.

As far as I can tell, this guy has lived in MD, Hawaii, CA, and PA. All four of those states have significant extra-federal firearm regulation. All four of those states for example, require that ANY handgun transfers (including private party sales) be done via FFL. All of them except for PA require some form of licensing or registration just to own a handgun.

It appears that he was living in CA when he planned all this out. That's where his mother filed the missing person's report. Private purchases in CA have to go through an FFL with a 10 day waiting period. A firearm certificate/registration is required for any handgun purchase.

I don't see why it's hard to understand that a guy planning a high-profile "hit" wants to keep off the radar if he can. I see lots of law-abiding firearm owners who are still unhappy about having to fill out a 4473 even though that's far less intrusive than an actual registration scheme.

Added to the above, they guy has a master's degree in computer science. For someone like that, setting up and running a 3D printer would be child's play. So why would he go to the trouble of buying a gun illegally or buying parts (which would leave a paper trainl) when he could fire up a 3D printer and make a gun?

[Jim Watson]

Yes, that seems to be what Expert Assassins do, and that can be learned from a few hours of watching Tv/movies or reading a few novels on the subject, if you can get past the fact that they are fiction....

That is my theory, that he learned the trade from adventure fiction. We see enough innocuous questions along that line.

[44 AMP]

So why would he go to the trouble of buying a gun illegally or buying parts (which would leave a paper trainl) when he could fire up a 3D printer and make a gun?

You can't "make a gun" with a 3d printer, no matter what the press would claim.

you can make SOME gun parts, the ones that don't take the pressure of firing such as the grip frame of a semi auto pistol, or the lower receiver of an AR pattern rifle.

The barrel, and the bolt/slide still have to be heat treated steel, something 3d printers cannot do. THis might change in the future, but if I understand things as they are now, 3d printers cannot make the parts that needed to contain the pressure of firing. I don't know for sure, but I don't think they can do a good job making springs, either.

SO, unless he had his own milling boring and rifling and heat treating set up (or access to one) he couldn't make the needed parts to fire the gun (more than once ) So, he would have had to buy them. In person, with cash, or there would be some kind of paper trail or an electronic one.

And, buying the parts is not a crime....yet.

Now, if he used one of his false IDs in the process, that is probably a crime, but its not much of one compared to murder in my book.

Is anyone else her wondering why the press has not already labeled him a "domestic terrorist"??

[JohnKSa]

You can't "make a gun" with a 3d printer, no matter what the press would claim.

I think it's understood that for the purposes of this particular discussion, when people say that someone 3D printed a gun, they mean 3D printing the receiver--the part that is tracked by the FFL system.

That said, just for the record, 3D printing technology is moving right along and it is possible to print steel parts with the proper 3D printer. I don't know if things have progressed to the point that printing a durable barrel is possible yet, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Double Naught Spy]

Wasn't that CBS? I'm pretty certain I remember that show. I think it was 60 Minutes, and I believe Mike Wallace narrated the segment of that show. The truck they blew up was a Chevrolet full-size pickup.

Dateline NBC, Not 60 Minutes CBS.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...335-story.html

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP.....You can't "make a gun" with a 3d printer, no matter what the press would claim.

You most certainly could, the materials available for additive printing are plenty strong enough to "make a gun".

While it may be limited in what cartridge it could fire, the number of rounds before failing or accuracy......it is doable.

In fact, Defense Distributed designed the Liberator over a decade ago. Additive printing has improved considerable since then, so much so that several silencer manufacturers offer 3D printed models.

[44 AMP]

Alright yes you are correct, in the broadest sense. I can make a gun from a piece of pipe, rubber bands, a nail and some scrap metal and wood....using only a couple of hand tools.

SO, I'll restate my point and try to be more precise. I do not believe you can make a functional 9mm Luger semi auto pistol, with the safety and durability of a regular commercial pistol, using ONLY a 3d printer.

Except in the movies, when its in the script...

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP...I do not believe you can make a functional 9mm Luger semi auto pistol, with the safety and durability of a regular commercial pistol, using ONLY a 3d printer.

So?
The shooter didn't need the safety and durability of a commercial pistol. He only needed it to function long enough to kill his victim.

Given that the video of the shooter shows him having multiple stoppages AND he seemed to easily and quickly resolve the stoppages I think he knew the limitations of what he built.

[44 AMP]

I think he knew the limitations of what he built.

Clearly, and on video. Whether he built it, or someone else did, he knew how to use what he had.

The focus on the gun here, in our forum is understandable, we are gun people. THe focus on the gun from the press, and politicians (and big city police chiefs are politicians, too) is, to me, somewhere between irrelevant and reprehensible.

If the killer had run up behind his victim and split his skull with a hatchet you can get at any Walmart or hardware store for $25 or so, we wouldn't be having this conversation, and most likely he wouldn't have been carrying it on his person 4 days later when he was caught...

[Nathan]

I appreciate that 3D printed guns are a thing….maybe. I also get that single use 3D printed receivers are a thing. The second is much more approachable in terms of cost.

Metal based additive manufacturing is not approachable cost wise for this case, I believe…..aren’t we talking like $250k+ for machine cost?

Is a plastic suppressor even possible or was it metal printed?

I’m back to how did he get it? Even when so many built home made Glocks, they were buying kits from auction sites and pre-made 80% frames which required some fairly simple non-critical material removal. He could have printed a frame and cleaned it up with basic hand tools. I’m guessing it is pretty easy to see his fingerprints on how this are done. If they don’t show the American public some of that evidence, then I’m back to “recruited.”

While this seems less plausible, I’m suspect he was recruited by some “agent” after he made his hate for this insurance company well known. This “agent” gave him a clean gun, suppressor and intel on who/where/when. Even if you know the date of a conference in NYC, how do you know hotel and patterns and timeline and ensure CEO is alone.

Spec Ops do this with surveillance, drones, informants, large payout of cash to double agents, etc. lonely losers from PA….How do they do it?

In the big picture, there is the $85 million, likelihood the next administration will legalize suppressors and the speed of suppressor applications as motivation.

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP ......If the killer had run up behind his victim and split his skull with a hatchet you can get at any Walmart or hardware store for $25 or so, we wouldn't be having this conversation....

Somewhere there would be a discussion arguing if that hatchet was an Ozark Trail, Gransfors Bruk, Gerber or a Fiskars.

[dogtown tom]

Nathan.....Is a plastic suppressor even possible or was it metal printed?

Man Makes Silencer with 3D Printer

Spec Ops do this with surveillance, drones, informants, large payout of cash to double agents, etc. lonely losers from PA….How do they do it?

Conspiracy theories are fun, but the simplest explanation is that some people are nutjobs.

In the big picture, there is the $85 million, likelihood the next administration will legalize suppressors and the speed of suppressor applications as motivation.

Huh?
Silencers ARE legal.
As far as speed of NFA approvals? I had six approved last week, None took more than five days.

[44 AMP]

Silencers are legal, AFTER Fed approval. If you have one, without ATF approval, they're not.

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that if make/take possession of one BEFORE you have ATF approval, you have broken the law.

In other words, you cannot legally build one, and THEN apply for approval, you've already broken the law.

[Nathan]

Yea, my suppressor wording was inappropriate. ….i believe the next administration will feel empowered to remove the burdensome federal tax, paperwork and federal approval of each purchase.

[Skans]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

You can't "make a gun" with a 3d printer, no matter what the press would claim.

you can make SOME gun parts, the ones that don't take the pressure of firing such as the grip frame of a semi auto pistol, or the lower receiver of an AR pattern rifle.

The barrel, and the bolt/slide still have to be heat treated steel, something 3d printers cannot do. THis might change in the future, but if I understand things as they are now, 3d printers cannot make the parts that needed to contain the pressure of firing. I don't know for sure, but I don't think they can do a good job making springs, either.

SO, unless he had his own milling boring and rifling and heat treating set up (or access to one) he couldn't make the needed parts to fire the gun (more than once ) So, he would have had to buy them. In person, with cash, or there would be some kind of paper trail or an electronic one.

And, buying the parts is not a crime....yet.

Now, if he used one of his false IDs in the process, that is probably a crime, but its not much of one compared to murder in my book.

Is anyone else her wondering why the press has not already labeled him a "domestic terrorist"??

Except, barrels, slides, and parts aren't guns. On Glock-style guns, only the Frame is the gun.

[FrankenMauser]

Is a plastic suppressor even possible or was it metal printed?

"Plastic" suppressors are absolutely possible.
Right now, there are two well-tested and fairly popular, 100% printed, monolithic designs for 9mm and .45 Auto; as well as a dozen or more designs that have various types of baffles for use in "fuel filter" bodies.
And, of course, there are dozens of 100% printed .22 LR suppressor designs.

Most of the above were developed to last for at least 600-1k rounds when printed with PLA+ filament. (Corn plastic, with some modifiers. Ends up with lower strength than standard PLA, but has better layer adhesion and deals with impacts / sudden stress rise better.)
When printed with something like KCF20 (20% carbon fiber) of PA6CF, or even just PA (unreinforced nylon), they can last even longer. Choose a version with a metal thread adapter for the barrel interface, and you get still more time. (Printed threads suck - I don't care who you ask.)

[dogtown tom]

Nathan Yea, my suppressor wording was inappropriate. ….i believe the next administration will feel empowered to remove the burdensome federal tax, paperwork and federal approval of each purchase.

The administration can't, only Congress.
And I wouldn't hold my breath because Trump is on record as saying he doesn't like silencers.

[Nathan]

Damn, he is anti-suppressor too?!! Well that said, he’s on record for a lot of things that are apparently not true so maybe this is not true also. Fingers crossed.

[Webleymkv]

So a lot is being made of the alleged use of a "3D printed" gun, but I think there are a few things worthy of bearing in mind:

1. The type of pistol used didn't prevent the alleged shooter from getting caught. I think that the role of ballistics and firearm technology in solving crimes is often vastly over-stated.

2. I've never heard or read of a real-world spy, professional assassin, or other "covert operator" type person using a homemade "ghost gun". Factory-made "sterile" guns or guns with their serial numbers removed are known, but not homemade guns. If the alleged shooter thought that using a "ghost gun" would help him evade capture, I think he probably got the idea from the media rather than reality.

3. While it apparently is possible to manufacture a firearm with completely homemade parts, this is not how it is typically done nor does it appear that the alleged shooter did this. Much more common is to make the receiver through finishing out an unfinished "80%" receiver or to 3D print the receiver and then assemble the complete firearm with factory-made parts which don't require a serial number or paperwork.

4. The shooter could have "fooled" the forensics by replacing certain parts such as the barrel, extractor, ejector, and firing pin in a 100% factory-made gun just as easily, if not more easily, than making a "ghost gun."

5. The parts necessary to "fool" the forensics with a factory made gun are just as easily available and leave no more of a paper trail than the ones necessary to assemble a homemade gun.

6. Even in the most restrictive of states, it is not illegal to purchase or own a 9mm pistol assuming one has the proper licenses etc. The fact that the alleged shooters was the "registered owner" of the same type of weapon used in the murder would be very weak circumstantial evidence at best as there are millions of legally owned 9mm pistols in the country and, apparently, also a lot of people with animosity towards health insurance companies.

Call me conspiratorial if you like, but there's a lot about this case that doesn't pass the sniff test for me and the fact that the alleged shooter went to the unnecessary trouble of building a homemade firearm to use in the murder is part of that especially considering the political animosity towards homemade firearms in recent years.

[Jim Watson]

It doesn't matter where it came from, he failed to follow Matt Helm's advice:
It can be more important to be able to quickly dispose of a pistol than to shoot it.
Keeping pistol, silencer, and fake ID was really dumb.