Experiments with the .30-30

[taylorce1]

So several years ago I bought a Rem 788 in .30-30 from a classified advertisement. I threw a Nikon UCC 3-9X40 on top of it, and zeroed it with factory ammunition and it always shot around MOA. I got it out last fall thinking I'd take it to Oklahoma to kill a few deer, but the scope was way off and it wouldn't shoot MOA anymore. So I put it back in the safe, and forgot about the rifle for awhile.

This summer a friend was looking for an LPVO for his AR-15 and he found a good deal on an Athlon 1-8X24. I thought since it was a deal, why not try it out as I've got a few Athlon optics and they've been working well. So I bought one and put it on my Rem 788 as I don't have another AR needing an optic at the moment.



I took it out to zero at 100 yards, and it shot slightly more than MOA again. I don't know if it's the optic or me, but lets blame me first. Still it'll hammer a deer at 100 yards and further if I do my part.





I need to dig out my chronograph and get some actual velocites, as I just plugged in factory info for the time being. While I was zeroing the rifle after mounting the optic, I kind of thought the trigger was awful stiff. Not impossible to shoot, but heavier than I remembered. So I pulled the action from the stock and cleaned the trigger with brake clean and got some gunk out, and lightly dry lubed with graphite. Put it back together and dry fired the rifle a few times, and decided it still not right. So I got on the web and a few days later I had the fix.



I got the Timney installed, and it's a huge improvement. However, while waiting on the trigger to come in I had another idea.



I dug up some 125 gr Accubond, NBT, and Speer TNT bullets that I had from loading the .308 for my daughter. I started with the AB first as it's the longest bullet of the three, just a hair longer than the BT.



I thought I could get away with a COL of 2.6", but had to seat 2.59" to not drag the tips on the magazine causing it to bind. 2.59" feeds slick from the mag, and feeds all three rounds as fast as I can work the bolt.


L-R 125 NAB, 140 Monoflex, 150 Hornady

I trimmed the case to 1.870" which should give me some room to change seating depth a little. Though I'll have a lot of jump to the lands since the ogive is much further back vs. traditional .30-30 bullets. However, I'm not seating the ogive below the case mouth anymore.

I managed to pick up a pound of lever for under $50, and have some others that might give me a little more speed out of the case. I also found some Paco Kelly varmint loads posted online. When I get some time I'll load up some test loads and see if my rifle likes a sleeker bullet.

[stagpanther]

Looks like you have some neck expansion where the AB seats--or is that an optical conclusion?My 30-30 likes Winchester's 170 factory ammo--I managed to track the power point bullets down somewhere and ordered some.

[44 AMP]

Lyman says max loaded length is 2.550".

yes its going to be a jump to the lands, that's the way the rifle is built. You've got a 788, Remington's budget rifle of the era. Its not a target rifle, its built to be a cheap(er) deer gun or pest gun in varmint calibers (.223)

The fact that most 788s shoot better than expected, and "around" one MOA isn't totally unheard of, they weren't built for group shooting.

Enjoy your experiments, let us know if you get any earth shattering results. I wouldn't expect any, but, ya never know...

[Jim Watson]

My 788 .30-30 is good but not outstanding.
My .223 is excellent, a friend's .222 is amazing.

I once read a debunking article that said the rear locking action was too prone to stretch with larger case heads, like .22-250 and .243.

[USAF Ret]

Dang brother, as we previously discussed, looks like an awesome project. I had a chance to buy one about 6 months ago and am kicking myself. Especially after seeing your excitement. Can't remember if I told you that. Me and the local gunsmith have an affinity for older rifles and he gave me first dibs before he put it on the shelf. Needless to say, it did not last long.

Have you shot it with the new trigger, yet?

[44 AMP]

I will add the comment, "take good care of those magazines!"

Replacements are nearly impossible to find and nowhere near cheap!

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

Looks like you have some neck expansion where the AB seats--or is that an optical conclusion?

Your conclusion is correct, I pulled the expander ball from the die. So the neck is undersize a bit, I have a collet neck die with a .305 mandrel. I had set it up incorrectly and it wasn't getting enough neck tension to hold the bullet. So I grabbed my cowboy dies to resize the neck.

I also had to use a .308 Win seater die to seat the bullets. The seating stem on the RCBS cowboy dies is too shallow even for FTX bullets. So today I went to town and picked up a new set of .30-30 dies that I can switch the seating stem out on. There isn't an alternative seating stem I can get for the cowboy dies.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Enjoy your experiments, let us know if you get any earth shattering results. I wouldn't expect any, but, ya never know...

I want to see what it'll do as a mid range rifle, 300+ yards. The Hornady 150 RN has a .186 BC and the Accubond 125 has a BC of .366. If I can get 2600 fps with the 125 gr, it'll still be good for deer past 300 yards. Plus it'll have about 3.5 MOA less drop, and drift about half as much as the 150gr Hornady RN bullet.

As far as magazines, they have reproduction mags at Numrich for $45 ea.

Originally Posted by USAF RET

Have you shot it with the new trigger, yet?

Not yet, maybe tomorrow. I had to run to my GS on Friday in COS and pick up my .30-40 Krag rifle that the stock broke on. He was able to epoxy in some dowels and reattach the broken piece. Then Saturday I went to my old HS homecoming, and visited with people I hadn't seen since 1992 when I left for the Army. Today, I went to Pueblo and took my daughter to a CCW class so she can get her carry permit. I didn't need it because of my DD214, but went with her anyway. I did learn some good things on the legal side of things the Army never taught me about.

[44 AMP]

If I can get 2600 fps with the 125 gr, it'll still be good for deer past 300 yards.

Provided you use the right 125gr for deer (at that range and speed).

I have a Hornady book that shows they got 2600fps with max loads using the 110gr bullet from a 20" Win 94.

IF your 788 has the 22" barrel, you might be able to get 2600fps MV from it with max loads and a 125gr slug, but I expect you'll be at, or ABOVE SAAMI max working pressure.

For me, that's not a deal breaker, SAAMI working pressure specs are not the safety limit, and exceeding the working limit a bit in a strong modern arm (like a Rem 788 bolt action) with modern brass shouldn't be any kind of safety issue. If you get any of the usual pressure signs before reaching your velocity goal, stop, back off the load a bit, and consider that your max working load.

[taylorce1]

I have data with several powders that achieved over 2600 fps with 125 gr bullets in 24" barreled .30-30. The ones with pressure data didn't exceed 41K psi. H335, BL-C(2), TAC, and RL7 all did it and I have those powders, SW Blackout, A2520, and BG3032 did as well but I don't have any to try.

I did try shooting the rifle with factory ammunition today. It shot poorly, about 2" for 3 shots. I'm positive the trigger is binding up in the stock. I tried torquing the action screws more to see if that would help, and I couldn't work the safety after that. Back of the screws and it worked again, so I'm going to have to figure some things out.

[44 AMP]

I'm positive the trigger is binding up in the stock. I tried torquing the action screws more to see if that would help, and I couldn't work the safety after that. Back of the screws and it worked again, so I'm going to have to figure some things out.

IF the stock is binding the trigger, you ought to be able to feel that with dryfiring.

Tightening the action screws and having the safety bind says the stock is not inletted as well as it could be. I'm sure it worked when it left the factory, but remember it was a budget grade rifle, which, provided it works (at all) goes out the door. Extra care and effort to get thing the best instead of good enough wasn't always taken.

Also consider the ammo used. Its not impossibe the factory .30-30 you shot simply doesnt shoot much better than 2MOA, as the majority of .30-30s (leverguns) don't shoot better than that, either, and the few people with precision .30-30s generally reload.

IF you want the best the rifle can do, pull the stock, look for points of contact where there shouldn't be any. Smoke the action (or use some other method that will mark where it contacts the wood) reassemble, tighten, then take it down and see where you need to do some work. Rebeding the action, done right, can make a night and day difference, sometimes.

IF a better trigger is already on the way, fine, but if not, doing the wood work rght, MIGHT mean a new trigger isn't needed.

Good luck with your project!

[stagpanther]

Your conclusion is correct, I pulled the expander ball from the die. So the neck is undersize a bit, I have a collet neck die with a .305 mandrel. I had set it up incorrectly and it wasn't getting enough neck tension to hold the bullet. So I grabbed my cowboy dies to resize the neck.

I also had to use a .308 Win seater die to seat the bullets. The seating stem on the RCBS cowboy dies is too shallow even for FTX bullets. So today I went to town and picked up a new set of .30-30 dies that I can switch the seating stem out on. There isn't an alternative seating stem I can get for the cowboy dies.

For precision neck work I use K&M neck turning and mandrel sets. The trick is matching the correct sized straight non-cutting mandrel (they have a die for inside neck mandrel work) to use with a conventional resizing die. Done right, you'll have a preset and consistent neck tension and won't need to crimp.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

IF the stock is binding the trigger, you ought to be able to feel that with dryfiring.

Not if it's the safety lever causing the issue. I've replaced the factory trigger with a Timney. While I thought it would drop right in, it didn't when I went from 30 in-lbs to 40 in-lbs of torque on the action screws. It makes it to where I can no longer operate the safety and locks it in the fire position only.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Its not impossibe the factory .30-30 you shot simply doesnt shoot much better than 2MOA, as the majority of .30-30s

Except this rifle has never shot that poorly with any standard factory ammunition. It has been consistently under 1.5" for three rounds since I bought the rifle years ago. Often times I've been under an inch with factory ammunition. If you look at my first post it went 1.27 MOA for six shots.

The only thing I changed was the trigger and I cleaned it since I shot that group after putting on a new scope. I need to rule out the trigger causing the issue from being in contact with the stock. Once I fix that issue, if it isn't shooting better I'll swap the scope.

Before trigger


After trigger






I glass bedded the action years ago.

[stagpanther]

I'll be interested in hearing about your hunting results--I personally never considered using anything smaller than a 150 gr bullet.

[Doug Lee]

Taylorce1,
Just curious, what did you gain by shortening the case length?
Thanks,
Doug Lee
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[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Doug Lee

Just curious, what did you gain by shortening the case length?

All it does is allow me to keep the ogive of the bullet from being below the case mouth. I don't know if seating the ogive below the case mouth would affect accuracy, but the sharp edges of the case mouth might affect feeding. If I had a single shot rifle, I probably wouldn't see any need to trim. However, I have to work with the limits of my magazine.

Here are a couple of pictures that might explain better.

[Doug Lee]

Taylorce1,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I understand now!
Doug Lee
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[taylorce1]

Doug Lee, you're welcome.

Now for everyone else help me figure this out. I was able to free up the trigger, and get the safety to work properly when the action is torqued down. So I went out and shot the rifle yesterday afternoon, and this was the first group I shot.



So I took the Athlon scope off to rule it out, and installed a Burris FFII 4.5-14X40 that I had ready to go. I pulled the bolt and bore sighted on a steel plate I have. I smacked the plate and made some adjustments to get get centered up. I then shot this group.



That had me excited to say the least. So I loaded up the magazine again and fired another group same POA. To say my excitement dissipated is an under statement with the next group.



So I loosened all the action screws and the rings from the bases, and retorqued them with my Wheeler Fat Wrench. I then shot this next group.



Unfortunately, that was the end of my Federal ammunition I had so I couldn't shoot another group with it. I did shoot groups with Winchester and Hornady ammunition, but the groups opened back up.

Ignore the .22 lr group at the bottom. I was playing with my Bergara BMR and some Norma Match and Tac-22 at 100 yds while letting the .30-30 cool. That little Bergara really doesn't disappoint.

[hooligan1]

So, Taylorce1, do you think it was the Athlon, or desperation that improved those groups?..

[taylorce1]

The groups didn't improve as I see it, I see it as lot of randomized groups. I don't even know if the Athlon was the issue. Somethings going on, as nothing has been repeatable.

[tangolima]

OP. What's the torque settings you use for the action screws? Did you recheck bullet jump of the BT bullet?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

For precision neck work I use K&M neck turning and mandrel sets. The trick is matching the correct sized straight non-cutting mandrel (they have a die for inside neck mandrel work) to use with a conventional resizing die. Done right, you'll have a preset and consistent neck tension and won't need to crimp.

Panther. Can you elaborate on the steps? Do you just keep thinning the neck wall till expander ball is no longer needed? Thanks.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[taylorce1]

@tangolima, I've been using 35 in-lbs on the action screws. I don't have any pillars, or traditional bottom metal to support more torque. Right now it doesn't matter how far I am off the lands, I was shooting factory Federal Power Shock 150 grain ammunition.

I've sold off my 1X brass as I never really planned on reloading the .30-30 Win. I never shot it much, maybe 20 rounds a year. So I've been shooting factory ammo to get brass, since I've collected quite a bit of it. I read a post about a guy shooting a custom bolt action .30-30 and winning some competitions. This is what got me interested in trying spitzer bullets in the .30-30.

Here is the link as I know some will ask.

30-30 600 yd build

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

@tangolima, I've been using 35 in-lbs on the action screws. I don't have any pillars, or traditional bottom metal to support more torque. Right now it doesn't matter how far I am off the lands, I was shooting factory Federal Power Shock 150 grain ammunition.

I've sold off my 1X brass as I never really planned on reloading the .30-30 Win. I never shot it much, maybe 20 rounds a year. So I've been shooting factory ammo to get brass, since I've collected quite a bit of it. I read a post about a guy shooting a custom bolt action .30-30 and winning some competitions. This is what got me interested in trying spitzer bullets in the .30-30.

Here is the link as I know some will ask.

30-30 600 yd build

The .30-30 can be very accurate. Many years ago, I was shooting Moa at 100 with my contender in .30-30.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

@tangolima, I've been using 35 in-lbs on the action screws. I don't have any pillars, or traditional bottom metal to support more torque. Right now it doesn't matter how far I am off the lands, I was shooting factory Federal Power Shock 150 grain ammunition.



I've sold off my 1X brass as I never really planned on reloading the .30-30 Win. I never shot it much, maybe 20 rounds a year. So I've been shooting factory ammo to get brass, since I've collected quite a bit of it. I read a post about a guy shooting a custom bolt action .30-30 and winning some competitions. This is what got me interested in trying spitzer bullets in the .30-30.



Here is the link as I know some will ask.



30-30 600 yd build

35 ft-lb is a bit low. For wood stock without glass bedding at all, I go 40 ft-lb. With glass bedding under the action only, 45-50 ft-lb. Glass bedding both under the action and bottom iron, 50-55 ft-lb. Pillar 55-65 ft-lb. What you have seems to be a in consistency in action bedding.

Is the barrel free floating? It may make a difference but probably to a lesser extent.

I have stepped on bullet jump landmine a few times. When I want to a new bullet, I assumed there is enough bullet jump. In really I had close to zero. Jamming the bullet into riflings can be a double edged sword. It can shoot very well or very lousy.

I have Rem 700 bdl in .30-06. it shot 3-4moa when I bought it from my buddy Dave. After some tinkering, including glass bedding with pillars and free floating barrel, it went down to 1moa or better. I did torque it to 60 - 65 ft-lb.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Doug Lee]

Hello Taylorce1,
I don't have any answers. I have a Ruger M77 VT in .25/06 that does something similar.
In your photo's does the black X represent POA?
Hope you get it ironed out.
Best of luck!
Doug Lee
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