The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

View Poll Results: Shoot or Don't Shoot... Please READ ENTIRE POST FIRST!!!
Shoot Him: He might shoot you otherwise. 59 72.84%
Draw and Hold Him for the Police (assuming he complies) 19 23.46%
Keep You Gun Holstered and Hand Over the Money (assuming no overt threats) 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 25, 2007, 07:34 PM   #26
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,568
This is a tough call, . . . no matter which way you go. There is no percentage call on "holding him for the cops", . . . it's either comply or shoot, . . . and I'll have to go for the shoot based on two reasons:

First, . . . because of no mask, he is no pro, . . . he may be a junkie (need to look for those signs), . . . he may be a newbie to armed robbery, . . . or he may be so desperate that he just pulled his gun and went for it. In any case, you do not have a stable individual facing you.

Secondly, . . . he was distracted, . . . not focused, . . . therefore he probably does not have a plan, . . . he's making this up as he goes, . . . and if he suddenly realizes I'm making mental notes of his blue shirt, tattered jeans, Georgia boots, and Cleveland Browns ball cap, . . . I'm dead.

Conclusion, . . . as soon as he is distracted, . . . I'm drawing and moving. He may be able to shoot a moving target, . . . probably can't. I only have to pause long enough to put two in him, . . . move again, . . . check for need of another two. I know the store, . . . he doesn't, . . . and if I get a chance, . . . I'm out the door. Leo's can check on him when they get there.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old November 25, 2007, 09:20 PM   #27
obxned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2007
Location: OBX, NC
Posts: 1,128
SHOOT! My mama didn't raise no fools, and she sure as heck don't want to have to bury one.
__________________
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth.” Ronald Reagan

I'm a proud member of a North Carolina Committee of Safety
obxned is offline  
Old November 25, 2007, 09:22 PM   #28
coolhandluke4
Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Location: upstate SC
Posts: 70
shoot him. Repeat until desired results are obtained.

My great aunt was killed during a robbery in her convenience store, she had complied with the robber. Sawed off shotgun to the chest. I'd been to her store a couple hours earlier.
coolhandluke4 is offline  
Old November 25, 2007, 10:13 PM   #29
ragwd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2006
Posts: 925
Shoot center mass twice while moving to cover (not just concealment). Reassess the situation and make sure you have stopped the deadly threat to your life. Before he made the fatal mistake of looking away, the situation seemed calm but thats no guarantee that it will stay that way. He could become agitated that you didn't have enough cash or someone else could walk in and upset him and shoot not only you but everyone else in the area. These situations can be very dynamic. Money being insured is not a variable. Some one is threatening your life, thats is the only point. Whether he is calm or not isn't a variable either. The gun will kill you no matter what his state of mind. I doubt he would have a Cleveland Browns hat on. We just beat Houston today to go to 7-4 for the season so all Browns fans a at the bar celebrating
ragwd is offline  
Old November 25, 2007, 10:39 PM   #30
Neal in GA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 2002
Location: Georgia
Posts: 172
Shoot him. He came in with a gun. That's threat enough. Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. Then take his gun away from him and call the police and paramedics for him.
Neal in GA is offline  
Old November 25, 2007, 11:16 PM   #31
XD Gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 636
Quote:
Exactly why would you respect a felon who has violated your business, is attempting to steal your profits, intimidate your clients and bring lethal weapons within firing distance?
He was stating "respect" as in, "I'll treat you, as you are treating me"

Seriously. The question, and ONLY question, you should ask yourself, is "Do I want to make sure I see my loved ones tonite?" If you answer yes, draw and fire.
XD Gunner is offline  
Old November 25, 2007, 11:48 PM   #32
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 955
What are the chances of this happening in the real world?? Does reality matter at all? Here is a fact for you all to consider. More lives would be saved by drinking skim milk than whole milk or eating one less meal of red meat a week that carrying a gun. I carry most of the time and like to carry but really some of thes scenarios are just plain silly. I dont preplan my days events. i go with the flow and can think on my feet and will deal with each situation as it presents itself. My Marine Corps training taught me that. I can think under stress and can act under stress. You wont get that kind of training here or on some weekend gun camp. You can plan all you want but when the lead starts to fly the plans go right out the window and you have to be able to think under stress and make good decisions in a heartbeat.
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40

Last edited by kgpcr; November 25, 2007 at 11:51 PM. Reason: spelling
kgpcr is offline  
Old November 26, 2007, 12:05 AM   #33
Gamisou
Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2007
Posts: 16
I would shoot him in his crotch (hopefully taking out his pelvic bone support) so he drops to the floor. Jump the counter etc, get on top of him kicking his gun away. If he fumbles trying to fight manipulating the gun, double tap, continue till he complies. Hold him gunpoint from a safe distance, make him interlock fingers on back of his head, face down. Wait for reinforcements.

I do not want anyone thinking they could get away with doing something like that. That would be my main concern. If its done successfully once, it will happen again. Thus putting people in danger more than they already have been. As far as revenge from his family, thats why I carry every day. He was wrong, he paid the consequences. Not looking to kill the guy, but when his low life friends hear about his injury, I don't think anyone will be thinking its an attractive idea to replicate. Meat and potatoes stay intact.
Gamisou is offline  
Old November 26, 2007, 12:14 AM   #34
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 955
Big problem here! NEVER shoot to wound! Shoot center mass. why wound him and piss him off?? I dont think you would ever have to worry about the scenario ever happening but unless you need a prisoner to get intel from, never try and wound, shoot to stop and take yourself out of danger for good. if shooting to wound would suffice then you should not shoot at all
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40

Last edited by kgpcr; November 26, 2007 at 12:15 AM. Reason: spelling
kgpcr is offline  
Old November 26, 2007, 06:53 AM   #35
Quadvet
Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2007
Location: MN
Posts: 31
CoolhandLuke got it right, sorry about your great aunt.
Quote:
I'm not talking about protecting my money or store, I don't want that bad guy to very calmly shoot me!
Agreed.

Quote:
Negotiate! Tell him his choice in life is wrong.
:barf:

Quote:
Does anyone have access to reliable data that shows what percentage of robberies involve shots fired vs. no shots fired?
I don't PLAN to be on the wrong end of those statistics (shot).
Quadvet is offline  
Old November 26, 2007, 07:54 AM   #36
stephpd
Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2007
Location: Claymont,DE
Posts: 60
Shoot him

It seems he made his intent clear when he robs you at gun point. If he didn't have intent to kill he could rob you without the gun. By using a gun he thought that it might be nessesary to kill to get what he wants.
If the opportunity to stop the threat presents itself I would take it. This is the mindset of carrying for self-protection. I can't read their minds but a gun in my face isn't something I take lightly. If they become distracted and I have a chance they will never try that on me again.
stephpd is offline  
Old November 26, 2007, 08:18 AM   #37
Tanzer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2007
Posts: 884
Quote:
Quote:
Negotiate! Tell him his choice in life is wrong.
Pretty sure he was just kidding.

Quote:
I would shoot him in his crotch (hopefully taking out his pelvic bone support) so he drops to the floor. Jump the counter etc, get on top of him kicking his gun away.
Very unrealistic.
Quote:
What are the chances of this happening in the real world?? Does reality matter at all? Here is a fact for you all to consider. More lives would be saved by drinking skim milk than whole milk or eating one less meal of red meat a week that carrying a gun. I carry most of the time and like to carry but really some of thes scenarios are just plain silly. I dont preplan my days events.
You are 99.7% correct. In the grand scheme of things, I agree. But, and this is a BIG BUTT ()(), Whenever something major happens, we always say; "Wow, never thought that could happen". A local Jewelry store up here was "attemptedly" robbed, and the BG caught 4-5 center mass (didn't live to tell his sob-story). Everyone in town thought; "Wow, never thought it could happen".
Notice if you will; We "reasonable folk" debate this kind of thing, BG's do not. They plan, and may even debate whether they should or shouldn't do it, but I'd lay odds that less than 10% wrestle with the morality of it. THERE is the big difference. I could be wrong on that because I've never entertained the thought of robbery - armed or not, so my 10% deal is a guess (guy needs to pay for Grandma's operation etc), but I doubt I'm far off.
__________________
Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.
Tanzer is offline  
Old November 26, 2007, 03:01 PM   #38
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgpcr
What are the chances of this happening in the real world?? Does reality matter at all? Here is a fact for you all to consider. More lives would be saved by drinking skim milk than whole milk or eating one less meal of red meat a week that carrying a gun. I carry most of the time and like to carry but really some of thes scenarios are just plain silly. I dont preplan my days events. i go with the flow and can think on my feet and will deal with each situation as it presents itself. My Marine Corps training taught me that. I can think under stress and can act under stress. You wont get that kind of training here or on some weekend gun camp. You can plan all you want but when the lead starts to fly the plans go right out the window and you have to be able to think under stress and make good decisions in a heartbeat.
Not to be arguementative, but what is the point of your post? We carry so that we are prepared for the unexpected. What if we already drink skim milk and eat less red meat? You might call this scenario silly or what not. IF you don't believe in bad guys, just turn on your local news. I happen to live in a big city that has an above average crime rate (Miami, FL). I just happen to OWN a franchise (restaurant) where 6 have been hit in the last few months (maybe due to their sheeple weapons policy). Maybe I should just go and hide in a bunker and be safe. I like where I live and I like my business. The threat of robbery is a real one and one manager (of a corporate store) has been killed. With your mentality, why bother carrying at all? In that case, why bother to post other than to troll?
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old November 27, 2007, 07:07 AM   #39
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 955
Not a troll at all but why sit around and think of things that may happen? train and be prepared! But you dont have to sit and wait for the worst to happen. many of these are so far fetched i would worry more about being hurt by falling space garbage than the scenario happening.
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40
kgpcr is offline  
Old November 27, 2007, 07:36 AM   #40
Sigma 40 Blaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 997
So it looks like you are really more concerned with the likelihood of retaliation than anything else.

Chances are unless this guy is part of a real gang with real gangsters you and yours will be safe after the fact. Just because a group of guys call themselves a gang and jump other people into it doesn't necessarily mean they are hardcore. Those are very few and far between. You (or your family) must have seen that Kevin Bacon movie Death Sentence huh? Not trying to be funny here.

But I think the greatest concern is stop the immediate threat (guy with gun). The future has so many possibilities that it is worth considering but not enough to stop your gut instincts to prevent an immediate robbery and potential shooting.

If your folks are concerned about their safety in the event you have to do something like this to protect yourself I'd recommend that you make every attempt you can to get them into "this thing of ours" and help them get the hardware or training that may one day save their lives. My wife is/was ALMOST an anti but she has some training scheduled early next year to be topped off with the gun of her choice and CHL training. She realized that I cannot be with her every moment of every day and it may be on her to protect herself and my son one day and wants to be prepared to do so.
Sigma 40 Blaster is offline  
Old November 27, 2007, 11:34 AM   #41
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,840
Quote:
Not a troll at all but why sit around and think of things that may happen? train and be prepared! But you dont have to sit and wait for the worst to happen. many of these are so far fetched i would worry more about being hurt by falling space garbage than the scenario happening.
Failure to be mentally prepared leads to indecisiveness and increases the chances of taking the wrong action or delayed action. Like I said earlier, I am prepared to shoot someone threatening me with deadly force and would not hesitate if I thought my life in danger.

Many members have made a highly valid point that you can never be sure of what the robber will do and that one should exploit any opportunity to "take control" of the situation. Again, claim that this scenario is far fetched. Which scenario are you talking about? Getting robbed? Over half a dozen restaurants of this particular franchise I own have been hit in the past 3 months? My restaurant is very busy and we are coming into the holiday season. What better time to hit a restaurant? If you are saying that the possibility of retaliation is low, I invite you to provide statistics. Retaliation may be physical or legal.

I don't believe that Florida prevents family members of dead scumbags from taking civil action against people who were not charged with a homocide. Furthermore, I don't plan on closing the business or changing my name or address so finding me won't be hard. Will I be 100% prepared against any attacks? Probably not. It is impossible to prevent an ambush since I do not know everymember of the scumbag's family. The same goes for my wife and parents, plus they are not as capable to defend themselves.

We do not live in a bubble and understand that there are risks involved with owning a business. Their stance is that we increase the risks or additional trouble (be it physincal or legal) by shooting and killing someone over money that is insured. I hope it never happens, but based on the responses so far, all resonses have been to take control of the situation, whether it be shooting or attempting to disarm him at gun point. Trust me... any agression will be met with equal or greater force.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old November 29, 2007, 03:11 PM   #42
Kruniac
Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2005
Posts: 44
Quote:
Big problem here! NEVER shoot to wound! Shoot center mass. why wound him and piss him off?? I dont think you would ever have to worry about the scenario ever happening but unless you need a prisoner to get intel from, never try and wound, shoot to stop and take yourself out of danger for good. if shooting to wound would suffice then you should not shoot at all
I agree. If I knew I had a chance, I wouldnt have a whole lot of fear, since actually being aware of your chance to draw means that the bad guy is wide open. Wide open=Comfort for me.

Fire three to five into the center (somewhere, because we arent going to be marksmen while avoiding getting shot) while keeping an eye on his gun movement, then when hes down, hit him once more in the side of the face "because he went for his gun".

If he dies from the headshot, great. If he doesnt, he gets to be disfigured for the rest of his life, and he can do some inspirational videos for urban youths about the dangers of criminal life. Either way, I keep my money, my life, my business, and I get some extra customers once I make the news.

And theres all the angles.
Kruniac is offline  
Old November 29, 2007, 03:22 PM   #43
dwatts47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2007
Location: arkansas
Posts: 995
I wish not to shoot him "just because I can", but I'm also not ignorant enought to think that If I comply he'll hurt no one.

If I did comply, and he hurt no one, I've just become his local ATM for everytime he gets low on cash...Like any bully, he'd try and bleed you dry until you had nothing to give except your life and that my friends is not an option.
__________________
I see no reason why man should not be as cruel as mother nature.
dwatts47 is offline  
Old November 29, 2007, 03:34 PM   #44
Kruniac
Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2005
Posts: 44
Quote:
I wish not to shoot him "just because I can"
I have to disagree with this. Not trying to sound like a mall-ninja navy s33l or anything, If I ever had a chance to legally murder a criminal (especially if that criminal was interfering with MY life), I would take it.

Im not talking about some guy throwing me a beating because I called him a douchebag in a bar. I dont mean "civil disagreements". I mean armed robbers, burglars, etc.

If I am in the frame of mind to carefully consider the situation, and in said situation I can legally murder the guy - im taking that opportunity. If their mothers and fathers cry for them, well, maybe they should have been aware that their son was a scumbag. If their children grow up without fathers, I feel very sorry for them, as they didnt have a choice in the world regarding the hand that got dealt. If their wives end up alone, they should have left the criminal a long time before it came to that.

I dont support racism, religious hatred, or any other cliche that gets put on people for who they are - but one cliche I dont roll with is the criminal type. Predators who WILL take advantage of weakness, and take other people's lives/family/money/property. I wont tolerate them, and thats just the way I feel.
Kruniac is offline  
Old November 29, 2007, 03:47 PM   #45
zbordas
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 107
There were too many cases when the calm robber(s) did not want to leave any witnesses behind and litteraly executed the staff.

I would rather take my chances while I can and take out the attacker rather than being a victim. If I saw somebody pulling a weapon I would immediatly try to take cover / move out of the endangered zone then / while accessing my SD weapon. If you start moving you have a lot better chances.

I would not put my life on the mercy of an armed robber!
zbordas is offline  
Old November 29, 2007, 03:52 PM   #46
dwatts47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2007
Location: arkansas
Posts: 995
Quote:
If I ever had a chance to legally murder a criminal (especially if that criminal was interfering with MY life), I would take it.
Self defense is not murder. By responding this way it shows an arrogance of "oh yea, well take this you dirty son of a...."

Not the kinda thing you want a jury, or a society to associate with you and your family.
__________________
I see no reason why man should not be as cruel as mother nature.
dwatts47 is offline  
Old December 1, 2007, 09:05 PM   #47
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
"You are the owner of a business and someone comes in to rob you at gun point. So far, the bad guy has made no indication that he wants to hurt anyone."

Your conclusion does not match your scenario.
__________________
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
Erik is offline  
Old December 2, 2007, 01:59 AM   #48
Luis Leon
Member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2007
Location: Ulster County, NY
Posts: 53
Shoot him to the ground

I'm not fast enough to answer all those questions in the alloted time span. He put himself in harms way, when he pointed his gun at me. Shoot him to the ground. See your family again, and hopefully prevail against any assault on your integrity by the legal system.

regards,

Luis Leon
Luis Leon is offline  
Old December 2, 2007, 09:01 AM   #49
45-70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2005
Location: Dallas TX area
Posts: 310
Bad Question

Sorry, Stephen 426. I think your scenario is loaded.

First you state that the bad guy is robbing us at gun point. Then you say he is acting in a calm manner so far without overtly threatening anyone. Stop right there.

No wonder you worry about lawsuits and retaliation, if you allow your thoughts to muddle off this way. If a guy points a gun at me and demands money, that right there is a threat to kill or do great bodily harm. If there is no threat, there is no robbery, by definition. Ask a lawyer.

You have set up a situation involving a clear threat to kill, then you add on layers of denial. The scenario doesn't work for me. The bad guy can very calmly have a negligent discharge and someone can still die. For this senario, when the BG shows the deadly weapon, he has pushed my start button. Something bad is very likely to happen to him within the next 2 seconds, if at all possible, unless he drops his weapon or runs.

Suggestion: Clarify your thinking or you may wind up providing a source of more weapons for robbers, as they take your unused firearm away from you or off your body.
45-70 is offline  
Old December 4, 2007, 06:55 PM   #50
rem870hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2007
Location: N.J. and trying to decide what state to move to.
Posts: 973
my place of business is my house too

i know the laws in NJ are funny here but



i look at it like this. you came into my business. with a weapon. gun, knife bat. a board with or without a 6" nail sticking out the side of it. whatever telling/asking me for money. as far as i am concerned you came into my HOUSE threatning me or my customers/family. YOU are a major lowlife scumbag and don't belong in here or in society. i don't need to pull and tell/ask you to leave or put the weapon down. you came in on your own with 1 thing on your mind. to hurt or kill someone. for money etc. things that do not belong to YOU. what needs to be done is for you to take 2 .45 slugs or a round or 12 ga. buckshot to your chest. thats all and when you get to hell tell satan i said HELLO!!! and to also tell your friends and family DO NOT MESS WITH A HOME/BUSINESS OWNER.
rem870hunter is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12106 seconds with 9 queries