Kahr Arms 1911

[Prof Young]

I am looking at one of these
https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/ca...u-s-logo-grip/
at the LGS. The price is a touch over $1200.
Will do more research but thought I'd start here.

Talk to me please.

Life is good.
Prof Young

Oh and one quick question. Says the mag hold seven round. That is one short of a regular 1911 45 . . . right? Which make me think my current mags won't work.

[Ernest T Bass]

I have three Colts and two Springfields, and they all came with seven round magazines.

Man, that is a beautiful gun! I really like the minimal roll marks. No gaudy logos or warning labels stamped into the slide. I’m a big fan of the case hardened finish, too.

[dahermit]

Originally Posted by Prof Young

I am looking at one of these
https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/ca...u-s-logo-grip/
at the LGS. The price is a touch over $1200.
Will do more research but thought I'd start here.

Talk to me please.

Life is good.
Prof Young

Oh and one quick question. Says the mag hold seven round. That is one short of a regular 1911 45 . . . right? Which make me think my current mags won't work.

The U.S. 1911, 1911A1 used 7 round magazines as standard, not eight rounders. Your current mags should work, but they are not traditional.

[wild cat mccane]

A1 for 1,200 bucks?

Kahr states it as "case hardened." So fake "case hardened" on their currently $600 A1.

Oh. And it's a Kahr.

Hmmm...Enjoy?

[Jim Watson]

That gun has about $350 in totally inauthentic color case hardening.

A GI appearance is much less expensive.
https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/fi...-1911bkoma.asp

[Steve in Allentown,]

Here's a LINK that contains some information about magazines that you may find to be of interest.

[Aguila Blanca]

I have tested a couple of Kahr Arms 1911s and an Auto-Ordnance 1911. They were all decent pistols and they shot well. That said, $1,200 for a Kahr with fake color case finish is not my idea of a "deal."

In my view, the 1911 market has finally reached a point of saturation. There was no SHOT Show this year but, when I was reporting in from the 2020 SHOT Show I told my colleagues that there was nothing new in terms of [1911] guns or features, it seemed that many of the manufacturers were competing to see who could come up with the most outlandish surface decoration schemes to set their pistols off from the others. This pistol is actually a relatively mild example of that trend.

[Jim Watson]

Another board had a long critique of a "customized" 1911.
I noticed that nearly all the stuff that was not thought up to par was cosmetic, the checkering of non-grasping surfaces, the "blend" of a magazine well funnel. The barrel crown looked odd but nobody knew if it affected the shooting.

[Prof Young]

So KAHR Arms claims it's case hardened but it's not? They are intentionally lying? Help me out here. How does one know about this sort of thing?

Life is good.
Prof Young

[Prof Young]

Okay, I looked at the website again and at the very bottom it notes that it is a case hardened "finish" with a clear coat . . .

Really? Boo on KAHR arms.

Life is good
Prof Young

[TunnelRat]

I have shot and handled a few of the Kahr and Auto Ordnance 1911s. They seemed decent, but case hardened or not I personally wouldn’t spend $1200 on one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RickB]

it is a case hardened "finish" with a clear coat . . .

To be fair, Colt puts a clear coat over their authentic color casehardening.

[wild cat mccane]

Let's remove the question for a second if THAT double priced Kahr 1911 A1 is real or painted.

Look at Kahr part G29CH, case hardened slide stop. $22.30. Well, that's the same price as their stainless G29S and blued G29B slide stops.

Hum...Not even pretending there is a cost difference when it comes to parts....

per kahr, it's chemically treated for the appearance. So case hardened price on their basic 500 dollar gun for over double the price. Seems about right with Kahr.

[BornFighting88]

I just came across a Kimber “Arctic” 1911 for $690 at euro optic in Montoursville, PA. That is a dang steal!!! I went the route of buying a skin and bones stock Kimber 1911, and updated it to what I wanted piece by piece. It is way more pistol to me than anything you can buy off the rack with all those bells and whistles, or in this case…. Fake case hardening. They might do that thing the Italians do, since they are not allowed to use organic bone in their color case hardening. I think they use charcoal or something. Am I right in that?? Still fake.

Kahr is a legit good company, and their product is probably great. But $1200?? Not my cup of crayons, friend.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by BornFighting88

They might do that thing the Italians do, since they are not allowed to use organic bone in their color case hardening. I think they use charcoal or something. Am I right in that?? Still fake.

No, not fake -- if they use charcoal to actually case harden. It doesn't have to be bone charcoal. But I doubt the Italians are doing any kind of case hardening, so their "color case" finishes are probably fake -- just as I'm sure this Kahr finish is fake.

However ...

The industry (or maybe we gun owners) have created a lot of confusion with the use of the term "color case hardening." Case hardening is a thermal process that used to be used to harden the outer surface of soft pieces of steel. The nature of the process involved immersing the part(s) in a bed of hot charcoal. The charcoal was in lumps, so the surface of the part got hotter where there was direct contact, and not as hot where there wasn't direct contact. This produced a mottled finish, which was characteristic of case hardened parts.

In other words, true case hardening was not a finish, it was a hardening process. The resulting mottled color was a side effect, not an intended result.

Fast forward to the late 20th and now the 21st century, and pretty much all steel firearms frames are fully heat treated throughout, so they don't need to have the outer surfaces case hardened. In fact, trying to do so would be deleterious to the heat treatment. So manufacturers who want to replicate the mottled finish of charcoal (and bone, which was just a material that was burned to create charcoal) case hardening now use a chemical process to replicate the appearance of real case hardening.

If they're being honest, they call it "color case finish" and don't claim that it's "case hardened." The Kahr web page kind of skirts honesty on this point. The headline says "Case Hardened 1911." But, if you read the fine print, it's then put in quotes:

"Case Hardened 1911", .45 Cal., 5" barrel, Wood Grips US Logo, Case "Hardened" finish with clear protective coat, ...

Putting it in quotes is advertising trickery to let us know that it's not really case hardened.

[5whiskey]

Putting it in quotes is advertising trickery to let us know that it's not really case hardened.

And then there is the rest of the story. Wouldn’t want a true, actual, real case hardened 1911 slide and frame. Even very good case hardening (which involves more than just burying metal in burning charcoal, btw) hardens steel at a depth of under .2mm or .008”. Sure, having a soft steel core helps durability in regards to being malleable and not brittle. However, .008” of hardness and underneath being dead soft malleable doesn’t bode well for certain parts of a 1911 frame. Especially, MOST especially, around the slide stop pin hole. Modern high carbon steel, with proper heat treating and tempering, is far more durable for modern firearms. With modern steels, heat treating, and tempering, case hardening is rarely used these days except in certain special applications. While not a metallurgist, the main modern application is for gears in certain stress environments not subject to impact peening.

Also, while inferior to modern steels, true case hardening is a specialized and time consuming process. Much easier to make a good steel alloy, harden, then temper.

[wild cat mccane]

As I said, per Kahr, it's chemically treated for appearance only.

[Prof Young]

Forum Followers:

This is what I love about TFL. Great information that prevented me from making a purchasing mistake. This gun looks so good that I almost bought it on the spot. So very glad I didn't.

I am shopping for a new 1911 45. Something in the $1,500 or less range. I want a shooter with no bells and whistles. I know there is a lot out there to choose from.

My trend is to have fewer guns, but guns of a higher quality.

Life is good.
Prof Young

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Prof Young

I am shopping for a new 1911 45. Something in the $1,500 or less range. I want a shooter with no bells and whistles.

There's always the original ...

https://www.colt.com/series/TRADITIONAL_SERIES

No bells or whistles, and all within your price range.

By the way:

Oh and one quick question. Says the mag hold seven round. That is one short of a regular 1911 45 . . . right?

Wrong. The original 1911 magazine, all the way through and well beyond WW2, held seven rounds. It wasn't until the 1990s or later that various companies started playing with the magazines to try to fit an additional round. Most of those solutions were what the computer geeks call "kludges," and the usual result was unreliable feeding. The 8-round magazines that work reliably are those with an extended body, so the floor plate or base no longer fits flush with the bottom of the grip frame.

My view is that John Moses Browning was a firearms genius. He designed the pistol, the magazine, and the cartridge. If he had thought it would work with 8 rounds, I'm sure he would have designed it to hold 8 rounds. And I don't think the Ordnance Department would have said, "Well, that's a very nice pistol, Mr. Browning, but could you please modify it to hold less ammunition?"

I maintain a stock of original, GI design magazine followers and springs. If I come into possession of any 8-round magazines, the first thing I do is remove the follower and spring, and convert them to GI-spec 7-rounders.