Defensive Cane vs. Knife, when you are restricted

[stinkeypete]

Arthritis is a curse, but I am here to tell you first hand- once it starts to impact your life, go see an orthopedic surgeon. What mine did for me is a scientific miracle. Pain is gone and I can walk miles. Or bike. I can't ski or skate anymore because the Ortho says a bad fall can play holy H*** on that titanium joint and it's just not worth the risk. I am happy as can be, not skating or skiing is a small price to pay to have my life back!

Well, I can't get through a metal detector but I have a doctor's note for that and I am sure no one will argue about a cane if I chose to carry one.

[HiBC]

I also fenced foil,sabre,and eppe for a few years decades ago.
Of course,I cannot do now what I did then. But the quadrants,the lines,the perrys ,attacks ,footwork ,distance,..it has not left me

All of those were one handed weapons.IMO,generally not the best plan with a cane. Retention is weak.

In the same gym was,IIRC,a kendo club. I think kendo is the right term.

They used a bundle of reeds or bamboo to simulate a katana.Some things different,but many things similar to a one handed sword. But its two handed.

Held two hands,mostly midline,point up,in front of you,you are set to parry/repost effectively. There is a very quick strike,while there is more involved,the upper hand punches forward as the lower hand pulls back.

A lunge and arm extension can be included,or actually a short step back,.Feet are actually not far apart.Better for mobility and balance in all directions.Like a dancer.

The opponents hand will be the closest target,or wrist/forearm.Plenty of power to break hand or forearm bones.

That strike will also work on collarbones. It can be rotated to the side of the head or the neck. There is something about incorporating snapping it back to the guard position makes it even quicker. Its a quick pop. Balance is retained.
Mobility in all directions is retained.

Of course,from that guard thrusts and a full swing can be made, but the quick,push /pull pop is like a jab. You can destroy hands and forearms.

Also,with two hands on the stick,techniques similar to rifle/bayonet moves can be used. Like a butt smash .
If you have a weighted head,like a brass ball,I'd keep it close,as a counterweight initially. It will increase the quickness of the strikes and provide better retention.
Though certainly using the weighted end as a mace would make for deeper,perhaps fatal trauma.

The laws will vary state to state. The "other weapons" question came up in concealed carry class. I'm not a lawyer,don't take this as legal advice.
I was told that in Colorado,only a handgun may be carried with the CCW permit as a CONCEALED weapon. Pepper spray,knife,collapsable baton,etc can be carried if they are not concealed. There may be restrictions or local laws around that. Example,it may be brass knuckles,nun chucks,switchblades,etc will be outlawed.

It might be that if you are in a situation that warrants deadly force to defend yourself, I'd think using a cane would be as legit as using a Glock.

[AFSG]

I have friends who ride motorcycles who are known to carry pick axe handles and use them with great authority.

[FITASC]

I have friends who ride motorcycles who are known to carry pick axe handles and use them with great authority.

Back in the day when folks had gun racks in the back windows of their pickups, many an axe handle resided in one of the racks.

Blackthorn = shillelagh, an excellent item for protection

[dannyb]

I was run over by a motorcycle when I was 18, 50 years ago. My left leg was badly fractured. I have since had an ankle replacement and other fun surgeries. I used to use an aluminum cane until I was walking around one day and noticed that I was being followed. I was able to avoid any problem, but it got me to thinking about possibilities. I thought about switching to a wood cane, but would such a cane hold up in case of a problem?
After some research, I found the Cane Masters site. They make defensive canes of various sorts. I decided that I didn't really need all the edges and ridges of their more elaborate ones, but I do use a solid hickory cane that won't shatter if needed as a defense. Cane Masters also has videos and such about what they call "cane fu." Here is a link (I have no business relationship with these people, this is just for information):

https://canemasters.com/

[FireForged]

I do not see "swinging the cane as a club" as a prudent or effective defensive technique--at all.

I am no stranger to the straight baton, PR24 style baton and the 36" riot stick. That said, I have not found them to be very effective vs a determined attacker who is trying to harm you. It is simply not what I would want to fight with. I would rather use some form of OC than anything resembling a baton. Dont let television fool you into thinking that smacking a pissed off and determined foe with a baton or cane is going to yield impressive results. It might, but I am rather doubtful based on what I have experienced.

[DT Guy]

The advantage of a baton/stick vs. OC is that a baton doesn't depend on a pain reaction from the opponent; it can trigger a mechanical (i.e., muscular or skeletal) reaction to the mechanical action of the weapon.

It also has the advantage in that repeated application doesn't depend on the same pain response, but compounds the damage.

Larry

[dahermit]

To paraphrase, Don't bring a stick to a gunfight.

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by HiBC

I also fenced foil,sabre,and eppe for a few years decades ago.
Of course,I cannot do now what I did then. But the quadrants,the lines,the perrys ,attacks ,footwork ,distance,..it has not left me

All of those were one handed weapons.IMO,generally not the best plan with a cane. Retention is weak.

In the same gym was,IIRC,a kendo club. I think kendo is the right term.

They used a bundle of reeds or bamboo to simulate a katana.Some things different,but many things similar to a one handed sword. But its two handed.

The kendo training weapon referenced is called a shinai, at least in some places, and is bamboo split lengthwise and then tensioned with some cord. A bit of the reason for the construction is to make a distinctive noise when hit and to reduce the energy transferred to the target as the weapon bits flex. It will pinch!

The foil, fencing epee, fencing saber and shinai are all pretty lightweight compared to nice proper hardwood inch plus diameter cane.

I'm not sure I would put much weight on the "retention" argument. There is a Filipino martial art called Escrima (corruption of a Spanish word for sword) that is a two- stick fighting style with rattan batons about 24 to 30 inches. Two sticks, two hands = one stick per hand.

I have played around with not-actually-a-cane fighting with rattan for quite a while with the Society for Creative Anachronism, one of the earliest Medieval Martial Arts groups. The main problem with cane, or sword, versus knife is if the knife guy is intent enough on getting close enough to actually use it you basically have one chance to deter him before getting into his range. I can put a pretty good dent into 16-guage steel, one-handed with one of the rattan swords/ cane-like object. I know that because the club safety rules require a minimum of 16 gauge, as in 0.0625 Steel, for helmets. Lots of muscle memory training to "hit them in the head". I suspect a good blow to the head would deter many, and no reason to stop at one if it doesn't.

Would I prefer a cane over a firearm, no; mainly because of range.
Would I prefer to have a cane, a simple piece of wood with a non-slip rubber tip to nothing? Yes. And one minor one-hand advantage: while the grip wouldn't be quite right you would likely have to hand

[BJung]

I'm not intending to look for a fight with a stick; just defend myself or someone else.

Personally, I don't like wrestling. If I every found myself in such a situation, I'd feel stupid to let myself get to that unless it was absolutely necessary.

I've heard of the Filipino martial arts style but I don't know anything about it.

[FireForged]

I think that somebody trained to use a cane as a weapon would benefit from a cane in a self defense situation. Somebody that is not trained would probably wind up being beaten with their own cane. Barnaby Jones was a bad boy with his cane.......

Lets not pretend that you need be a master a particular kwan in order to effectively use a bludgeon to overcome or ward off a criminal attacker. Its not rocket science.

The problem is that most canes and baton like objects are simply not robust enough to be effective "stoppers" except in the most narrow of circumstances. A person could argue all day that someone could defeat 10 men with a rolled up magazine but and although it might be true, I think it is simply an unreasonable standard. I do not consider these issues to be about lack of training but rather the intentional construction of a plan to cut wood with a feather.

Generally speaking, a person armed with 14" of lead pipe is often more of a threat than the same person armed with a typical walking cane, baton or similar object. Its not about training necessairly, its about the nature of the weapon, physics and plausible impact force.

I am not suggesting that a cane should not or could not be used effectively and I am not suggesting that a person carry around a length of lead pipe. I am simply saying that [if] you do not have experience in the use of impact weapons such as canes, sticks and batons. I wouldnt let TV and Movies represent the basis for how effective I expect those weapons to be in a real fight.

As I said previously, I would rather use OC than any baton or common cane.

[BJung]

I rather use any cane than use my hands.

[Brit]

My wife and I have two sets of munchkins! Two in Folsom CA. Aged girl 7 boy 6.
We visit every year (Except 2020 Covid)
Two in Windermere, down the road. Girl 9 boy 6. Had those two for 6 hours on Saturday! We were worn out! My Glock 19 is carried always in Gods Country Florida, outside or in the house.
On the flight to CA, and always whilst out and about, City Stick. Steel tip, unbreakable, bayonet strikes, slashes to arms, legs, crotch. The knob it came with, plastic (Polymer) I tried the stainless steel one, too heavy, back to the original one. White hair, and beard, looks like a fashion statement!
Razor-sharp Benchmade in the hold with a 3"X 1/4" blade. Not sure on blade rules in CA, but I see lots of them clipped on jeans.
I suppose a universal carry license is a pipe dream now?

[HiBC]

I stumbled across some youtube cane self defense vids.

Several recommend very primal technique. Basic,which is good

CaneMasters has vids.

An important bit of info "I saw on the internet so it must be true" (verify for yourself)

The round brass ball headed walking stick may be considered a weapon(mace) in some jurisdictions, traveling with it may be trouble.

But a conventional walking cane is protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act. Its a Medical Device. You dont require justification.You can take it anywhere. Just DO NOT say its for self protection.

And if anyone insists on seperating you from your cane, demand a signed property receipt,then explain (according to the internet so it must be true) they will be liable for injury you sustain without your cane

[dannyb]

But I made sure that it is robust (heart of hickory). Most of the posts here just look at a cane as a striking weapon (likely thinking of walking sticks from movies of 19th century Louisiana and from Victorian era). My cane can also be used in a hooking move.

To repeat, I use my cane as a cane - I need the support. I just prefer to have the reliability if I have to use it for other purposes it won't bend or shatter.

[FireForged]

it can trigger a mechanical (i.e., muscular or skeletal) reaction to the mechanical action of the weapon.

regardless of what it can or might do.. I have found baton-like implements to do little more than piss off a determined attacker.

Against a lack luster attacker or half hearted attacker, yeah.. I think they work pretty good for that. Nobody wants to get smacked with a baton

I suspect that television and movies have influenced people into thinking that baton-like weapons are much more effective than they actually are.

[DT Guy]

If a baton is used with less than complete commitment, that can be the case. We were taught that the baton should make a clearly audible 'whistle' when swung; a strike of that intensity, placed accurately at an appropriate point on the anatomy, generally has a fairly reliable effect.

As my instructor put it, "The main failure of a baton in use is an inadequate amount of impact energy delivered to the target. In other words, hit them #@%$# harder."

Larry

[FireForged]

If a baton is used with less than complete commitment, that can be the case. We were taught that the baton should make a clearly audible 'whistle' when swung; a strike of that intensity, placed accurately at an appropriate point on the anatomy, generally has a fairly reliable effect.

well good luck with all that.

[DT Guy]

It's not hypothetical on my part; I used a baton a number of times, and generally to good effect. Like any weapon or tactic, there's a time and place it will work, and others where it will not.

Larry

[armednfree]

A cane can be a serious weapon if you know how to use it. Just don't think of it as just a blunt force weapon so much. I know one guy that can use a plain cane and seriously screw you up. Disarm you with it to. Put you on your azz so fast you will not see it coming. Go at him with a knife, not a good plan.

[wizrd]

If you're even considering EVER using a knife in a defensive situation - get Hank Reinharts book on knife fighting.

[Brit]

When I worked at the Cavern Club in Liverpool UK, from 1960 till 1964, as a very active Bouncer. I had my wife make a baton inside the right side trouser pocket.
This was not a manufactured baton. But an old ruler from the days when ink pens had nibs. Can not remember the exact dimensions 18"X1.5"? of ebony wood.

I drilled a hole through one end. Threaded a leather bootlace through it, knotted it. To use it, you put your right thumb through it, placing your hand through it, around the back of your hand.
If someone had a firm grip of the baton, to stop that person dragging you all over the Street, you could simply just slip it, losing the baton (it never did happen) though.

I never struck any person in the body or head, in an overhead strike. But broke a few knuckles! And poked a few kidneys! Once even breaking a bottle of wine that was being smuggled in! Seen outlined in a jacket pocket.
Left it behind on one of my many house moves, in Canada. Years ago.

Every November, our month-long trip to my wife's youngest Sons home in Tucson. (Not this year! Covid 19.) I am accompanied by my City Stick. A solid polymer walking stick, unbreakable! With a lightweight knob to lean on!
A steel tip, that you could use in a bayonet type of strike! You would aim for the solar plexus, stepping firmly into it.

All the slashing strikes are available also.

[BobCat45]

Thanks wizrd! That is a marvelous tip and a great book.

I found it a https://www.baen.com/hank-reinhardt-...of-knives.html - $9 for the ebook, $8 for the paperback.

Being impatient I paid the extra dollar for the ebook and am currently immersed in it; just came up for air and coffee, and thought to thank you.

[Bake]

You might look at the canes with palm rests. I find them to make a pretty good "shooting sticks". I will wrap the crook & rest with an Ace Bandage [figure 8 ] to protect the stock [rifle or ThompsonCenter] . . .

[Pistoler0]

Do the same as the park ranger does!

I think that one would have to be incredibly skilled to make good use of either bladed of blunt weapons for self defense, and in most jurisdictions it is probably illegal. You'd also risk retaliation in kind: after you've closed the distance and maybe managed to slashed your more physically powerful opponent on the torso or shoulder, he is going to defensively wrestle the knife from you and guess what he is going to start carving at?

The idea in self defense is to immediately STOP the threat. Blades and clubs do not do that, they are weapons of offense and attack rather then weapons for defense and deterrence.

Pepper spray on the other hand is legal in most places, it is not lethal so you do not end up accused of manslaughter, and it gives you just enough time to get the heck out of Dodge even when confronted by several attackers. You do not need to be skilled or athletic, and anybody can use it.

Here is where it is legal:
https://www.pepper-spray-store.com/p...ray-state-laws

Think about it. The game warden / park ranger carries a firearm and bear spray. No knives, canes or clubs to shoo Yogi off.