Ar receivers that are shipped with a stock?

Sharkbite · January 31, 2023, 03:05 PM

Are those considered just receivers or does the fact it has a rifle stock on it from the manufacture make it a rifle?

**44 AMP** · January 31, 2023, 04:00 PM

Not being a lawyer or an FFL dealer, this is just my best guess, but if the maker attaches a shoulder stock, I would take that as a clear indication that the firearm is intended to be fired from the shoulder, and that is one of the key parts in the legal definition of a rifle.

9x19 · January 31, 2023, 08:17 PM

Absent a barrel, and the ability to chamber or fire a round, it is just a receiver. Furniture makes no difference.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 31, 2023, 10:33 PM

In fact, in the specific case of the AR-15, a lower receiver is really only half of a receiver. The lower holds the trigger group, but the upper holds the bolt carrier group. It has been argued that it is the upper receiver that should be the serial numbered part on an AR-15.

So I agree (although I am not a lawyer and I don't work for the BATFE) that a lower receiver is still just a receiver (i.e. "Other"), even if it wears a buttstock, until an upper receiver with a barrel has been attached to it.

**44 AMP** · January 31, 2023, 10:56 PM

The AR lower might be "just a receiver" but that is machts nichts, it is still, LEGALLY the firearm.

Modular designs do play hob with the definitions created before modular firearms became prevalent, but that doesn't change the definitions, or the fact that only one serial# part is needed to be legally, the firearm.

I would agree that an AR upper is a receiver, but, so what? The lower is the serial numbered part and meets the legal requirements by being so.

Some people have pushed the argument about recievers and "firearms precursors" as all needing to be serialized, registered and tracked. Those people also want other parts registered, regulated and tracked, some literally think anything that isn't raw ore is a firearm precursor, and I think they would include raw ore in the ground if they could figure out a way to write that into a law...

The receiver, or frame is the main part, and generally speaking is the most durable part, Which is why it is usually the serial # part. Barrels wear out. Moving parts, wear out. When parts wear out, you replace them. When actions/frames wear out, you get a new gun...

There are a lot of parts that you cannot fire a gun without. barrels, firing pins, springs, etc., lots of parts, but without some part functioning as the receiver, you don't HAVE a gun, to begin with.

P Flados · February 1, 2023, 01:53 AM

Lets go a little farther.

So lets say someone pulls the upper and the stock off of an AR that was originally sold as a rifle.

The lower is then sold through a FFL and the form records it as an "other".

The new owner then builds a pistol with it.

A rifle has been used to make a pistol. (Sounds like a NFA violation to me)

The pistol is then involved in a legal self defense activity (no death involved) but taken by the police while they investigate. They run the SN and find it was originally a rifle. What happens next?

I have wondered about this kind of sequence when seeing a used Contender / Encore being sold as a bare frame.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 1, 2023, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The AR lower might be "just a receiver" but that is machts nichts, it is still, LEGALLY the firearm.

Yes, an AR-15 lower receiver is a "firearm." But until it has been mated to an upper receiver with a barrel, it isn't a "pistol" or a "rifle," it's an "other."

**Aguila Blanca** · February 1, 2023, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P Flados

So lets say someone pulls the upper and the stock off of an AR that was originally sold as a rifle.

The lower is then sold through a FFL and the form records it as an "other".

In my non-lawyer opinion, if the owner sells it as an "other" when it has been built as a rifle, he/she is breaking the law.

Quote:

The new owner then builds a pistol with it.

A rifle has been used to make a pistol. (Sounds like a NFA violation to me)

The pistol is then involved in a legal self defense activity (no death involved) but taken by the police while they investigate. They run the SN and find it was originally a rifle. What happens next?

Somebody goes to jail.

9x19 · February 1, 2023, 12:18 PM

Unless I have a rifle build in mind, I'm wary of buying used lowers from companies who sell complete rifles.

New lowers are so reasonably priced, the gamble on original configuration for a pistol build just isn't a good one, for me.

dogtown tom · February 1, 2023, 04:33 PM

Quote:

44 AMP Not being a lawyer or an FFL dealer, this is just my best guess, but if the maker attaches a shoulder stock, I would take that as a clear indication that the firearm is intended to be fired from the shoulder, and that is one of the key parts in the legal definition of a rifle.

Yet not the entire definition.

An AR lower receiver with a shoulder stock attached is not a handgun, not a long gun....just a firearm receiver.

dogtown tom · February 1, 2023, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Aguila Blanca In fact, in the specific case of the AR-15, a lower receiver is really only half of a receiver. The lower holds the trigger group, but the upper holds the bolt carrier group. It has been argued that it is the upper receiver that should be the serial numbered part on an AR-15.

True.
The reason ATF designated the lower as "the firearm" is because of industry request......more flat space for marking/engraving.

Although such split receivers have been common for over half a century, ATF for some reason never got around to specifically designating which half of the receiver is "the firearm". That is why we have 2021R-05F, Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms:https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...me-or-receiver

P Flados · February 1, 2023, 04:52 PM

I think I may be getting a better "picture" now.

For a new "lower kit" with a brace, the receiver is still an other. If a 16" barrel is put on it first, it becomes a rifle only. If a short barrel upper is installed first, the lower is now a pistol lower that can then go back and forth.

For a gun originally sold as a rifle, any FFL to FFL paperwork and the ATF Form 4473 (kept at the FFL location until the FFL goes out of business and sends it to the ATF) will show it as a rifle. These are never legal for a short barrel without becoming a NFA SBR.

So all of these used bare frame Contenders and Encores should be treated as "rifle only" unless it can be confirmed that they were not originally documented as rifles.

dogtown tom · February 1, 2023, 04:53 PM

Quote:

P Flados Lets go a little farther.
So lets say someone pulls the upper and the stock off of an AR that was originally sold as a rifle.
The lower is then sold through a FFL and the form records it as an "other".
The new owner then builds a pistol with it.
A rifle has been used to make a pistol. (Sounds like a NFA violation to me)

Exactly the situation I asked of my IOI when I first received my FFL in 2008.
He said "record what type of firearm is in front of you".

If originally manufactured or assembled as a rifle, it can never be reassembled as anything other than a rifle. Period.
Does it happen? For sure.
Is it enforced or prosecuted? Not to my knowledge.

Quote:

The pistol is then involved in a legal self defense activity (no death involved) but taken by the police while they investigate. They run the SN and find it was originally a rifle. What happens next?

Who knows.
Local PD doesn't enforce federal laws. While they might refer this to ATF I doubt that would happen.

Quote:

I have wondered about this kind of sequence when seeing a used Contender / Encore being sold as a bare frame.

So did ATF when they saw Thompson Center selling a kit with a receiver, pistol bbl, pistol grip, rifle bbl and shoulder stock. The kit came with explicit instructions on avoiding the short bbl with the shoulder stock.

ATF said "Well, once you made it into a rifle, it can never be a pistol!"
TC said "Nuh, Uh!"
USSC said "ATF wrong!" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...enter_Arms_Co.
Nineteen years later, ATF gets around to updating its regs with Ruling 2011-4
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download
And we lived happily ever after.

dogtown tom · February 1, 2023, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Aguila Blanca

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by P Flados
So lets say someone pulls the upper and the stock off of an AR that was originally sold as a rifle.

The lower is then sold through a FFL and the form records it as an "other".

In my non-lawyer opinion, if the owner sells it as an "other" when it has been built as a rifle, he/she is breaking the law.

Name that law they are breaking. (Hint......there ain't one

)

Quote:

Quote:
The new owner then builds a pistol with it.

A rifle has been used to make a pistol. (Sounds like a NFA violation to me)

The pistol is then involved in a legal self defense activity (no death involved) but taken by the police while they investigate. They run the SN and find it was originally a rifle. What happens next?

Somebody goes to jail.

Unlikely for many reasons.

HiBC · February 1, 2023, 06:13 PM

My opinion carries no legal weight.
But one could argue the serialized lower is "the firearm" and various upper assembies can be looked at as "Accessory Modules" that are just pinned on to compliment "the mission". Still only one person will fire one gun at a time.
How sinister is an H+R Topper with .219 Zipper, 30-30 and 12 ga "uppers"

If we go back to a Hawken muzzle loader, with patent hook breech and wedge keys,Sam COULD HAVE offered 36 cal,54 cal,and 12 gauge "Upper Modules"

There was no BATF to micromanage the RTKBA

Consider Kirby Vacuums and Kitchenaide Mixers. "Yeah,it LOOKS like a mixer! But you have a sausage grinder and a pasta machine!! You might bootlegging Italian food! What is worse, you might put Cream and Peas in the Carbonara!!
The FDA has to act in these cases to prevent atrocities!!

January 31, 2023, 03:05 PM	#1
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Ar receivers that are shipped with a stock? Are those considered just receivers or does the fact it has a rifle stock on it from the manufacture make it a rifle?

January 31, 2023, 04:00 PM	#2
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	Not being a lawyer or an FFL dealer, this is just my best guess, but if the maker attaches a shoulder stock, I would take that as a clear indication that the firearm is intended to be fired from the shoulder, and that is one of the key parts in the legal definition of a rifle. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 31, 2023, 08:17 PM	#3
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,750	Absent a barrel, and the ability to chamber or fire a round, it is just a receiver. Furniture makes no difference. __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

January 31, 2023, 10:33 PM	#4
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,466	In fact, in the specific case of the AR-15, a lower receiver is really only half of a receiver. The lower holds the trigger group, but the upper holds the bolt carrier group. It has been argued that it is the upper receiver that should be the serial numbered part on an AR-15. So I agree (although I am not a lawyer and I don't work for the BATFE) that a lower receiver is still just a receiver (i.e. "Other"), even if it wears a buttstock, until an upper receiver with a barrel has been attached to it. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

January 31, 2023, 10:56 PM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	The AR lower might be "just a receiver" but that is machts nichts, it is still, LEGALLY the firearm. Modular designs do play hob with the definitions created before modular firearms became prevalent, but that doesn't change the definitions, or the fact that only one serial# part is needed to be legally, the firearm. I would agree that an AR upper is a receiver, but, so what? The lower is the serial numbered part and meets the legal requirements by being so. Some people have pushed the argument about recievers and "firearms precursors" as all needing to be serialized, registered and tracked. Those people also want other parts registered, regulated and tracked, some literally think anything that isn't raw ore is a firearm precursor, and I think they would include raw ore in the ground if they could figure out a way to write that into a law... The receiver, or frame is the main part, and generally speaking is the most durable part, Which is why it is usually the serial # part. Barrels wear out. Moving parts, wear out. When parts wear out, you replace them. When actions/frames wear out, you get a new gun... There are a lot of parts that you cannot fire a gun without. barrels, firing pins, springs, etc., lots of parts, but without some part functioning as the receiver, you don't HAVE a gun, to begin with. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 1, 2023, 01:53 AM	#6
P Flados Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2017 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 243	Lets go a little farther. So lets say someone pulls the upper and the stock off of an AR that was originally sold as a rifle. The lower is then sold through a FFL and the form records it as an "other". The new owner then builds a pistol with it. A rifle has been used to make a pistol. (Sounds like a NFA violation to me) The pistol is then involved in a legal self defense activity (no death involved) but taken by the police while they investigate. They run the SN and find it was originally a rifle. What happens next? I have wondered about this kind of sequence when seeing a used Contender / Encore being sold as a bare frame. Last edited by P Flados; February 1, 2023 at 01:59 AM.

February 1, 2023, 12:18 PM	#9
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,750	Unless I have a rifle build in mind, I'm wary of buying used lowers from companies who sell complete rifles. New lowers are so reasonably priced, the gamble on original configuration for a pistol build just isn't a good one, for me. __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

February 1, 2023, 04:52 PM	#12
P Flados Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2017 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 243	I think I may be getting a better "picture" now. For a new "lower kit" with a brace, the receiver is still an other. If a 16" barrel is put on it first, it becomes a rifle only. If a short barrel upper is installed first, the lower is now a pistol lower that can then go back and forth. For a gun originally sold as a rifle, any FFL to FFL paperwork and the ATF Form 4473 (kept at the FFL location until the FFL goes out of business and sends it to the ATF) will show it as a rifle. These are never legal for a short barrel without becoming a NFA SBR. So all of these used bare frame Contenders and Encores should be treated as "rifle only" unless it can be confirmed that they were not originally documented as rifles.

February 1, 2023, 06:13 PM	#15
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	My opinion carries no legal weight. But one could argue the serialized lower is "the firearm" and various upper assembies can be looked at as "Accessory Modules" that are just pinned on to compliment "the mission". Still only one person will fire one gun at a time. How sinister is an H+R Topper with .219 Zipper, 30-30 and 12 ga "uppers" If we go back to a Hawken muzzle loader, with patent hook breech and wedge keys,Sam COULD HAVE offered 36 cal,54 cal,and 12 gauge "Upper Modules" There was no BATF to micromanage the RTKBA Consider Kirby Vacuums and Kitchenaide Mixers. "Yeah,it LOOKS like a mixer! But you have a sausage grinder and a pasta machine!! You might bootlegging Italian food! What is worse, you might put Cream and Peas in the Carbonara!! The FDA has to act in these cases to prevent atrocities!! Last edited by HiBC; February 1, 2023 at 06:27 PM.