Are double barrels a lot harder to make than single barrels?

[44 AMP]

Honestly, I think this idea of a reasonable double has never really been tried.

You need to look into what is now some ancient history. Back before, during WW I, and some years afterwards.

Field grade double barrel shotguns from quality makers such as Ithaca, Stevens (Fox) and others were cheaper than deer rifles and cheaper than PUMP shotguns back then.

Nothing was made by CNC machinery, everything was made on machines set and operated by skilled labor. Basic field grade doubles cost $15-20. My Grandfather's Ithaca made to his order for barrel length, choke, and stock dimensions cost him $17 in 1909. A Winchester 94 cost $23 for the rifle and $21 for the carbine. In Winchester's 1916 catalogue the model 12 pump cost $30!

So, yes, the idea of a reasonably priced double barrel used to exist. Why they don't exist today, I think, is the result of marketing, and demand. Doubles today are. more often than not, prestige items. They were back then, as well, Ithaca offered high end, high dollar doubles back then, with prices that reached $5,000!! Pump repeaters, and a bit later semi autos basically killed the budget end of the double market.

Ordinary hunters getting a 4, 5, or 6 shot repeater, and mass production of those guns meant more than a double barrel, even if they did cost a bit more back then.

Its not all about the "cost saving" of CNC machinery. Never was.

[bamaranger]

I can't imagine what a 3" mag would feel like shot from a 311. Dang 2-3/4" 16 ga shells in my 311A kick enough to get my attention, though not abusive. I've watched the 311 market for some time now, one thing I've noticed is that many get an aftermarket recoil pad, usually an old "Redhead" or something similar. Simply screwed on, the LOP on the guns grows considerably, making felt recoil all the worse. A modern space rubber pad would help, but would spoil appearances in my book.

My interest in doubles, either O/U or SXS? Turkey gun of course. Two loads, two chokes......and the ones I'm interested in start at near tw grand.
So I suppose my rather pedestrian but proven pumps will have to suffice.

[Pumpkin]

Savage could really cash in on a new CNC’d 311

But please, no rials, pistol grips, bayonet lugs, etc. ;-)

Would mean something to some of us that they were the original manufacturer of the 311.

[bamaranger]

Bill Ruger tried to produce and sell shotguns to appeal to us folk that desired a US made double, the Red & companion Gold Label models. When the Red Label came out, I think it could be had for around 500 or so 1980 dollars. I'm sure many of remember. Now out of production, like so many classy Ruger guns. No demand and not enough profit supposedly. Ruger's shotguns were highly polished steel & nice wood, as I stated...classy. Towards the end of production they had a synthetic/stainless model as well. All those guns bring four figures now.....used.

What I would like to see would be the same guns, but strictly utilitarian. Matte finish, plain wood, might even settle for synthetic. Attention paid to regulating the barrels. I'd want the ability to select one barrel or the other, if double triggers are cheaper than a selective safety, I wouldn't mind. Extractors OK as well. Full and Modified fixed choke would be OK too. I'd want mine at 26", but would settle for a 28" if I had to. Berretta did something along those lines for a few years, called it the Essential. No longer made either.

[FITASC]

Ruger shotguns sucked; that's why they stopped making them. I had one - the 28 gauge; was going to be my go-to chukar gun - until it needed three trips back to Ruger and it was never fixed; they went away because cast guns don't seem to go well in O/U or SxS shotguns

[Nathan]

I just realized you folks are talking shotguns and I’m talking double rifles! Ahh

My advice. Buy a Browning….or maybe a CZ.

[Jim Watson]

There is a good bit of overlap. There is a cottage industry converting double shotguns to express rifles. Not cheap but not Holland and Holland prices, either.

[stuckinthe60s]

my uncle got tired of his forearm coming off every time he shot his 311. gun went up....forearm stayed in his hand. lol.

[Pumpkin]

My 311 was mid 80’s vintage, I think it used a screw to hold the very wide forend on.

But, I could be mistaken.

[bamaranger]

Hey, FITASC, care to expand on your disappointing 28 gauge's problem? Why do cast receivers "inhale vigorously on SxS and O/U shotguns?
Ruger made it work (and still does) for everything else. Not picking a fight, just really curious.

Buddy of mine made the circuit of the big clay bird shoots, doing custom stock work. He saw a lot of shotguns, and was around a lot of shotgun people. His consensus was the Rugers "would not hold up" under repeated range use and thousands of rounds a year, but would make a decent hunting gun.

[Jim Watson]

I heard the same thing at the time.
It wasn't a lack of strength, Paul Jaeger put rifle barrels on Red Label U/Os, they seemed to just shake loose.

A Skeet shooter said the reason he shot a Krieghoff 32 was that it held up well and could be rebuilt indefinitely, all wear parts replaced for then $400.

But the Trap shooter who had amassed over 900,000 registered targets and hoped to make a million, said he got tired of wearing out Brownings, lifetime guarantee and all, and went to an Ithaca Single Barrel Trap which only required an annual spring replacement.

[44 AMP]

What I would like to see would be the same guns, but strictly utilitarian. Matte finish, plain wood, might even settle for synthetic. Attention paid to regulating the barrels. I'd want the ability to select one barrel or the other, if double triggers are cheaper than a selective safety, I wouldn't mind. Extractors OK as well. Full and Modified fixed choke would be OK too. I'd want mine at 26", but would settle for a 28" if I had to.

Bama, you're OLD! or at least have good "old school" taste. What you described is almost exactly my Grandfather's shotgun. His gun, which he bought in 1909 has most of those features, and some specific to his order.

Don't know if it was specifically meant to be a matte finish, but it never was a high polish gun. Field grade, Ithaca double. Double triggers (standard for the era), extractors (ejectors were an extra cost option), and at his order, the stock has a little more drop than usual, to fit him better, barrels are 26", not the more common 28 or 30 inch. Choked Full/Full per his request. Papa wasn't much of a bird hunter, though he did some upland birds, and small game. He was a farmer, and that gun mostly protected his chickens and crops. Said he once killed a fox at 40 rod, and I think he did, but that is an exceptionally lucky shot.

His gun also has a splinter forend, and a safety I've never found on other guns, even contemporary Ithacas. It has 3 positions. Forward is fire, and the gun goes on safe when opened. Middle position is safe, but there is a third position, all the way back, which is fire, and the gun does not go on safe when opened. He was adamant that the gun never be dry fired, and it never needed to be. With the safety in the rearmost position, and the action open, you pulled and held both triggers then closed the action, and the hammers were down. The gun was always stored that way, uncocked, so no tension on the springs and no snapping of the firingpins. Always thought that was a good feature, no idea why it wasn't more common.

I think the main reason you don't see field grade doubles made to compete with pumps is simply because they only hold 2 shells, and most of the buying public wants more ammo capacity these days. Even the legal restrictions on waterfowl let you have 3 in the gun.

As to Ruger shotguns not being good because the receivers were cast, that's BS. The reasons they weren't successful is elsewhere, and I think primarily market demand at the time.

[FITASC]

Bama - I bought the first gen 28 gauge - the one they "supposedly" got right. The ejectors kept slipping over the rims of the AA ammo I was using jamming up the gun. Three trips back; three times the guts were replaced; three times they failed. They gave up; tried again and failed again - just not their forte

[Pumpkin]

I think one of the biggest problems is…

Showing up at a Trap shoot with a Red Label is kinda like showing up at a sports car gathering in a Stingray.

Doesn’t matter that it can do anything these other much more expensive Euromobiles can do for half the price.

It’s still a Ruger, oops, I meant Chevy.

[bamaranger]

FITASC, thanks for reply.

I've spent a little time reading up on RedLabels since the conversation has gone this direction, and what I'll call mechanical issues with lockwork seems to crop up in some discussions. Oddly enough, there seems little mention about pounding one to pieces (shooting one loose) on the claybird range, which was supposedly the guns Achilles heel when compared to the expensive Euro guns. Maybe the guys that bought Red Labels were more feather bird shooters than clay bird shooters, I dunno. The gun had had a 30 yr production span, so somebody was buying them.

I wish I had bought one, especially when first introduced. Though the asking price of the early guns was attractive for the market at the time (+/_$500) , one could still buy a Rem 870 for less than $200 and a Mossberg for less than that. Both reliable and durable repeaters. I bought the Rem, ($185) and still hunt it. Shelling out over 3X the cost of a pump was not practical when buying a gun intended for hunting. In reviewing the literature from the period when the Red Label was discontinued, money, ie production cost v. profit IS mentioned every time. By then, the Red Label cost as much, or more than its competitors, which were all accepted in clay bird circles, well proven, and were not "oh.....its a Ruger" on the social scale (see Pumpkin's post above). One writer commented that the blue collar double had simply outpriced its intended market.

Much the pity, for they were/are dang pretty guns. No pins, no stampings on the tubes, sleek in appearance, good wood. Despite my comments desiring a durable, no frills hunting mule, everybody appreciates a thorough bred. You may marry the girl next door, but you'll cast a glance or two at Miss USA......but don't get caught!!!!!!!!

Interesting that Ruger apparently still offers support to some degree of the last generation of the Red Label, but if I understand things correctly, not the early guns. That is a dang shame.......but don't get me started.

Back to mules. I had the opportunity to buy one of the matte, utilitarian Berretta Essentials last year, had it in my hands twice. Hunting club money was due and I hesitated, that would be a lot of cash out the door at once. When I returned a month of so later, the gun had sold. I suppose I might have put it on layaway, but it was a consignment and may not have been eligible for the shops layaway practice. In any event, my two pumps went gobbler hunting again this spring and sufficed as they always have. The weather was so bad and I was so desperate to have every advantage that I did not hunt my 12ga/ 2-3/4" Lanber o/u, despite adding a bigger bead up front and intending to do so all season. The Lanber is a good story by itself I might relay at another time, but for now it will do as my only o/u.

[FITASC]

I think one of the biggest problems is…

Showing up at a Trap shoot with a Red Label is kinda like showing up at a sports car gathering in a Stingray.

Doesn’t matter that it can do anything these other much more expensive Euromobiles can do for half the price.

It’s still a Ruger, oops, I meant Chevy.

Sorry, using your analogy, I would equate the Ruger to driving a FIAT in a F1 event

[FITASC]

BAMA, I am primarily a clay target and helice shooter
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AAljf...?feature=share

I own Brownings and Berettas and a few others.
I use Beretta semis when rain is imminent; otherwise those higher end O/Us are my ticket for fun for sporting, 5-stand, helice, skrap, Super Sporting