Lil' Bro, Big gun

Shadi Khalil · January 7, 2008, 10:50 PM

Hello all. I recently took my little brother (11yrs) to the gun shop with me while I scooped a cleaning kit and and other accesorices for my yet to arrive sig. It was the first time he had ever seen a gun, let alone hundreds of pistols and riflles at once. Needless to say his jaw was on the floor and he was pretty much in awe. The guys at the shop were really excited that I brought him in, so while I went shopping they took him to play. While looking at ammo I caught a glimpse of him holding a S&W 500 and grining from ear to ear. Right then I decided I would buy him a handgun. I went over and me and the guys showed him various .22. He looked at a smith, walther p22, ruger mkIII (stainless, bull barrell) and the Neo. Most fit his hand pretty well (he's a big little dude) but he went for the p22 because it "looks cool". I prefer the ruger, which was his second choice. I want to take him to the range to try one first but I know the only avaiable to rent are the S&W (which he already ruled out due to how it felt) and the Ruger MKIII. I'm thinking I'm just gonna get him one of the two. So what should I do? As far as reaching the trigger and trigger pull, he was fine with both. Thats where I run into problems. Is it better to get him started on straight SAO of the ruger or the TDA of the Walther? Which will be easier for him to take down and maintain? I will keep the gun when he's not using it but as far as maintance goes, its all on him. I imagine as far as quality and reliabilty goes its the ruger, although I dont have experince with there .22 outside shooting one a few times at the range. So what do you all say? I'm sure plenty of you have been down this road....

thanks for your help.

teif.

Playboypenguin · January 7, 2008, 10:55 PM

I would probably go with the Walther just because of how big a pain the Ruger can be to tear down and reassemble.

Shadi Khalil · January 7, 2008, 10:57 PM

thats what I hear, any worse than a 3" kimber ultra?

Playboypenguin · January 7, 2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

thats what I hear, any worse than a 3" kimber ultra?

IMHO...much worse.

Just get him a revolver and solve te problem all together.

Shadi Khalil · January 7, 2008, 11:07 PM

i thought about that but he has his heart set on a semi auto. I dont want this to be a "whats good for you" type deal, just fun for the little man.

Playboypenguin · January 7, 2008, 11:09 PM

Just show him how much fun it is to cock back that hammer for a first shot and how cool he will look doing it.

If that doesn't work buy him a cowboy hat to go with it.

Hawg · January 7, 2008, 11:13 PM

The Ruger is a pain the first couple of times you do it but it's easy once you get the hang of it.

gopack · January 7, 2008, 11:45 PM

If it is the first time he has ever seen a gun, then you might want to consider a single shot, or bolt action, mag fed .22 rifle. He can get a lot of safety, marksmanship and shooting experience and training and have the fun of actually hitting targets. Pistols are much harder to shoot accurately than rifles.

If you are set on a handgun, I second the idea that a single action revolver is a good way to start. Probably safer because he has to manually cock the hammer to fire a round. Besides, SA revolvers, like my single six, are just loads of fun to shoot.

My preference for a first semiauto would be a Ruger, Buck Mark or 22A. The P22 is "way cool" but it is harder to shoot accurately and is a notch below the others in quality.

I really wish disassembling the Ruger was as difficult as some folks believe. The pistols wouldn't be as popular and the prices, new and used, would be much better. The first time I field stripped a MKIII it was a bit of a struggle, but it helped me to understand how the pistol went together and Ruger's instructions. Then I found this site http://www.guntalk-online.com/fsprocedures.htm
which made it much clearer.

jakeswensonmt · January 8, 2008, 01:31 AM

Quote:

If you are set on a handgun, I second the idea that a single action revolver is a good way to start. Probably safer because he has to manually cock the hammer to fire a round. Besides, SA revolvers, like my single six, are just loads of fun to shoot.

Or even a DA/SA revolver. An autoloader is a lot to take in as a first gun for someone so young. I always start out new handgun shooters on a revolver no matter what their age. A girlfriend of mine picked up a DA/SA 9 shot Taurus 22lr revolver (cannot remember the model number) used for cheap that would make a good first handgun.

Sgt.Fathead · January 8, 2008, 02:11 AM

I understand completely your desire to get the kid what he has his heart set on but this is a firearm we're talking about, not a bicycle or a video game. I do not mean that to sound as snotty as it does as I read it back to myself! You're the adult and the shooter. He'll follow big brother's advice, won't he?

I'm going to second the revolver idea and especially the single action and go so far as to suggest a Ruger Bearcat or Single Six. Rugers are tough and forgiving and maintenance is relatively simple on these SAs. The bearcat will give him a stable 4" platform to learn on, or, the Single Six from 4-5/8" to an almost ludicrous 9-1/2" (squirrels do not find it ludicrous). With a convertible model, he can choose to shoot different calibers, too.

An SA will teach him patience, careful shot placement and our favorite word, SAFETY. I sound preachier by the minute, don't I? I swear it is my love of Ruger, strong dislike of the finicky P22 and pleasure knowing that you're bringing another shooter into our great sport.

I'm an old fogey compare to your lucky kid brother and I have a great time with my Bearcat!

Good Luck, good shooting!

Billy Sparks · January 8, 2008, 07:28 AM

Do not discount the Beretta Neos. My wife gave me one for Christmas and it is fun and accurate (for my 40+ year eyes). You can also easily add a red dot to make it more cool/fun.

Shadi Khalil · January 8, 2008, 12:15 PM

well i just got back from the rage with him and rented a MKIII and a ruger bearcat! i didnt know they had one in the case but there it was. We took them both out and he really liked the MKIII. He didnt find the revolver easy to cock then reach the hammer, he kept having to adjust his grip and couldnt get comfortable. I was suprised with how naturally shooting came to him, he had no problem operating the pistol and was quite acurate for his first time. I think I'll go ahead and get him the ruger. I really liked the idea of the revolver, thats how i learned (even though it was a .357 snub) and it seems he could get more out of it. As of right now its looking like the MKIII.....Now its back to work. Ugh..........

zippyfusenet · January 8, 2008, 05:03 PM

My first gun (not that long ago) was a Ruger 22/45 Mark II. It's had about 12K rounds through it, it's just getting run in good, solid as a rock. It's a great shooter and still my favorite. Your brother will do fine with the Ruger Mark III. Taking it apart is easy, putting it back together so it works is a little tricky. Follow the procedure in the manual exactly and you'll have no trouble.

Shadi Khalil · January 8, 2008, 06:14 PM

We ordered one, he gets it in a week. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks for all the help.

teif

YukonKid · January 8, 2008, 06:18 PM

ha, you guys are funny, clean the ruger a few times and its a breeze, you just need to learn. Ruger Mk series and Buckmarks are the most solid, reliable, accurate performers out there. Walther has quality issues as does the sig trailside and sig mosquito. a smith 617 or K-22 if you want to spend more would be awesome.

NCHornet · January 8, 2008, 06:21 PM

The MKIII is one of the best 22 pistols made. I have the target model with slab sides and target grips. After he learns iron sights get a cheap BSA red dot scope and he will have a blast. Take down is a pain!! But there is a kit made that makes takedown very simple. I need to get it for mine!!
NCH
PS, You're a good older bro!!

XD45Sooner · January 8, 2008, 06:24 PM

You are the coolest older brother in the world man. Make sure he is safe with it and have a blast!

Shadi Khalil · January 8, 2008, 06:39 PM

thanks XD and Hornet, i try....

Well i thought I'd just drop this in here. After the range I dropped my brother off at our parents house and went to work. I spent most of the day in meetings and when I got back to my desk I saw that my mom and dad had called my desk and my cell like 20 times. My brother got home and told them all about his day at the range and how he was getting a brand new gun, ect... Well my parents flipped out. Even though the gun will be kept at my house, 35 miles away, and only used when he is with me, they still dont like the idea of him being around guns. I probably should have told them my intetions first but then i figured they would absolutly forbid him from going near a gun. for them its not a matter of them trusting me with him at the range, they only see the accpect of violence attributed to the gun, not the sport or disiplines it teaches. I think the best way for them to see is to actually take them to shoot and let them see him shoot. What do you guys think?

Homerboy · January 8, 2008, 07:52 PM

I think you tried to do a nice thing, but you gotta respect your parents wishes. When my son is around 10, I plan to buy him a .22 rifle and teach him to shoot, but brothers aren't dads.

allenomics · January 8, 2008, 08:01 PM

The Ruger Mark III in the 5.5" bull barel in stainless is a great gun. Yes, it is a challenge to tear down. Have a gunsmith do it for you a couple of times each year, if he shoots frequently.

Honestly, IMO, the P22 is at best a plinker. It may look cool, but the Ruger will probably be the best long-term gun purchase you may ever make. Also, the Ruger isn't too picky whe it comes to cheap ammo. I've owned both and the P22 was a mistake.

Buzzcook · January 8, 2008, 09:28 PM

The Ruger will be a gun he will use the rest of his life.

I'm with the revolver bunch as the first gun though.

BTW clear it with the parents.

zippyfusenet · January 8, 2008, 09:43 PM

tiefmen, I'm sorry to say, you should have convinced your parents before you went down this road. You've shocked them and now they mistrust you. You've given a few clues about your family's background - perhaps your parents have lost friends and kin who picked up a gun at the wrong time. Perhaps they have their reasons for disarming.

It sounds like your parents are afraid for you and your brother's lives. By dragging them to the target range and making them watch you and your brother shoot, you will confront them with what they fear. That isn't likely to change their minds.

You must regain your parents' trust. A good start would be to apologize, to them for creating a conflict and to your brother for disappointing him. When things calm down, you can begin to talk, perhaps at first just with your father, to understand what he has experienced and why he thinks as he does. Once you do understand him, then you can see whether there's any possibility of changing his mind.

Sgt.Fathead · January 9, 2008, 01:14 AM

I was under the assumption (Mother of all f-ups) that there was a sense of consent. This is a bad situation. Your folks are responsible to and liable for little brother. You'll need to straighten this out pronto!

The Mk series are reliable performers. The Recon and Force Recon guys used them in The Corps, with minor work, for sentry removal and the like. Durable pieces, on my list. Good choice, though I'm still leaning towards that Bearcat. I'm not his pop either, though, eh?

I take no one under 21 shooting without parental consent myself.

Edward429451 · January 9, 2008, 01:38 AM

Sounds to me like a Ruger Bearcat would fill the bill nicely. Not only would it teach good fundamentals in a simple arm, it is small and innocuous looking (for the parents), and loads of fun to shoot. He'll never outgrow it. I quietly held onto our Bearcat when the kids "outgrew" it.

The MKII pistols are a pain in the butt the first couple times to dis/re-assemble, but are easy and just another gun after that.

I wouldn't get him the black plastic one. For the same reason he likes it, the parents will be more scared of it than a SA revolver...The image.

Shadi Khalil · January 9, 2008, 12:50 PM

first off, thank you all very much for the reply. Each was informative and helped us make a good choice. As for the way I went about the whole situation (behind my mom and dads back) let me clear somethings up adn give you guys alittle update. First, I'm 29 and my brother is 11, needless to say his parents are pretty old. And busy, my father is a prof. at hopkins and runs his one consulting company and my mom is a pre-school owner. Very busy, very old people. So naturally I have been comissioned with playing a large part in rearing the lad. They have a tendency to freak out first then see the clear pic. I knew if i had sat them down and tried to explain it to them they would have forbid it, banned him from guns and it would have been a bad scence. I spoke with my father last night and he said as long as the boy can turn it into something productive (compitention, ect..) he has no problem. Now they are intrested to see a gun range and the type of folks who shoot. So we are all going to the NRA next weekend. First the rangew then the muesum. All this worked out even better than I had planned. Once they see that a shooting range isnt a bunch of over-all clad hillbillies (not that theres anything wrong with that) and gangsta wannabies, they will feel allot better. So the little man is in the clear. I am a master of diplomacy.

Worlds Greatest Big Bro and Future Worlds greatest father saying thanks again.

Teif.

January 7, 2008, 10:50 PM	#1
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	Lil' Bro, Big gun Hello all. I recently took my little brother (11yrs) to the gun shop with me while I scooped a cleaning kit and and other accesorices for my yet to arrive sig. It was the first time he had ever seen a gun, let alone hundreds of pistols and riflles at once. Needless to say his jaw was on the floor and he was pretty much in awe. The guys at the shop were really excited that I brought him in, so while I went shopping they took him to play. While looking at ammo I caught a glimpse of him holding a S&W 500 and grining from ear to ear. Right then I decided I would buy him a handgun. I went over and me and the guys showed him various .22. He looked at a smith, walther p22, ruger mkIII (stainless, bull barrell) and the Neo. Most fit his hand pretty well (he's a big little dude) but he went for the p22 because it "looks cool". I prefer the ruger, which was his second choice. I want to take him to the range to try one first but I know the only avaiable to rent are the S&W (which he already ruled out due to how it felt) and the Ruger MKIII. I'm thinking I'm just gonna get him one of the two. So what should I do? As far as reaching the trigger and trigger pull, he was fine with both. Thats where I run into problems. Is it better to get him started on straight SAO of the ruger or the TDA of the Walther? Which will be easier for him to take down and maintain? I will keep the gun when he's not using it but as far as maintance goes, its all on him. I imagine as far as quality and reliabilty goes its the ruger, although I dont have experince with there .22 outside shooting one a few times at the range. So what do you all say? I'm sure plenty of you have been down this road.... thanks for your help. teif.

January 8, 2008, 05:03 PM	#13
zippyfusenet Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Posts: 165	My first gun (not that long ago) was a Ruger 22/45 Mark II. It's had about 12K rounds through it, it's just getting run in good, solid as a rock. It's a great shooter and still my favorite. Your brother will do fine with the Ruger Mark III. Taking it apart is easy, putting it back together so it works is a little tricky. Follow the procedure in the manual exactly and you'll have no trouble. __________________ You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

January 8, 2008, 06:18 PM	#15
YukonKid Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: NW Posts: 744	ha, you guys are funny, clean the ruger a few times and its a breeze, you just need to learn. Ruger Mk series and Buckmarks are the most solid, reliable, accurate performers out there. Walther has quality issues as does the sig trailside and sig mosquito. a smith 617 or K-22 if you want to spend more would be awesome. __________________ This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill Fifteen percent concentrated power of will Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

January 8, 2008, 06:21 PM	#16
NCHornet Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2006 Posts: 1,001	The MKIII is one of the best 22 pistols made. I have the target model with slab sides and target grips. After he learns iron sights get a cheap BSA red dot scope and he will have a blast. Take down is a pain!! But there is a kit made that makes takedown very simple. I need to get it for mine!! NCH PS, You're a good older bro!! __________________ When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away!! Carry ON!! NCHornet

January 8, 2008, 08:01 PM	#20
allenomics Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2007 Posts: 1,536	The Ruger Mark III in the 5.5" bull barel in stainless is a great gun. Yes, it is a challenge to tear down. Have a gunsmith do it for you a couple of times each year, if he shoots frequently. Honestly, IMO, the P22 is at best a plinker. It may look cool, but the Ruger will probably be the best long-term gun purchase you may ever make. Also, the Ruger isn't too picky whe it comes to cheap ammo. I've owned both and the P22 was a mistake. __________________ NRA Benefactor Life Member Knowledge is not power. Applied knowledge is power!

January 7, 2008, 10:55 PM	#2
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	I would probably go with the Walther just because of how big a pain the Ruger can be to tear down and reassemble.

January 7, 2008, 10:57 PM	#3
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	thats what I hear, any worse than a 3" kimber ultra?

January 7, 2008, 11:07 PM	#5
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	i thought about that but he has his heart set on a semi auto. I dont want this to be a "whats good for you" type deal, just fun for the little man.

January 7, 2008, 11:09 PM	#6
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	Just show him how much fun it is to cock back that hammer for a first shot and how cool he will look doing it. If that doesn't work buy him a cowboy hat to go with it.

January 7, 2008, 11:13 PM	#7
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	The Ruger is a pain the first couple of times you do it but it's easy once you get the hang of it.

January 7, 2008, 11:45 PM	#8
gopack Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2006 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 302	If it is the first time he has ever seen a gun, then you might want to consider a single shot, or bolt action, mag fed .22 rifle. He can get a lot of safety, marksmanship and shooting experience and training and have the fun of actually hitting targets. Pistols are much harder to shoot accurately than rifles. If you are set on a handgun, I second the idea that a single action revolver is a good way to start. Probably safer because he has to manually cock the hammer to fire a round. Besides, SA revolvers, like my single six, are just loads of fun to shoot. My preference for a first semiauto would be a Ruger, Buck Mark or 22A. The P22 is "way cool" but it is harder to shoot accurately and is a notch below the others in quality. I really wish disassembling the Ruger was as difficult as some folks believe. The pistols wouldn't be as popular and the prices, new and used, would be much better. The first time I field stripped a MKIII it was a bit of a struggle, but it helped me to understand how the pistol went together and Ruger's instructions. Then I found this site http://www.guntalk-online.com/fsprocedures.htm which made it much clearer.

January 8, 2008, 02:11 AM	#10
Sgt.Fathead Junior member Join Date: March 3, 2007 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,637	I understand completely your desire to get the kid what he has his heart set on but this is a firearm we're talking about, not a bicycle or a video game. I do not mean that to sound as snotty as it does as I read it back to myself! You're the adult and the shooter. He'll follow big brother's advice, won't he? I'm going to second the revolver idea and especially the single action and go so far as to suggest a Ruger Bearcat or Single Six. Rugers are tough and forgiving and maintenance is relatively simple on these SAs. The bearcat will give him a stable 4" platform to learn on, or, the Single Six from 4-5/8" to an almost ludicrous 9-1/2" (squirrels do not find it ludicrous). With a convertible model, he can choose to shoot different calibers, too. An SA will teach him patience, careful shot placement and our favorite word, SAFETY. I sound preachier by the minute, don't I? I swear it is my love of Ruger, strong dislike of the finicky P22 and pleasure knowing that you're bringing another shooter into our great sport. I'm an old fogey compare to your lucky kid brother and I have a great time with my Bearcat! Good Luck, good shooting!

January 8, 2008, 07:28 AM	#11
Billy Sparks Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC 27105 Posts: 745	Do not discount the Beretta Neos. My wife gave me one for Christmas and it is fun and accurate (for my 40+ year eyes). You can also easily add a red dot to make it more cool/fun.

January 8, 2008, 12:15 PM	#12
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	well i just got back from the rage with him and rented a MKIII and a ruger bearcat! i didnt know they had one in the case but there it was. We took them both out and he really liked the MKIII. He didnt find the revolver easy to cock then reach the hammer, he kept having to adjust his grip and couldnt get comfortable. I was suprised with how naturally shooting came to him, he had no problem operating the pistol and was quite acurate for his first time. I think I'll go ahead and get him the ruger. I really liked the idea of the revolver, thats how i learned (even though it was a .357 snub) and it seems he could get more out of it. As of right now its looking like the MKIII.....Now its back to work. Ugh..........

January 8, 2008, 06:14 PM	#14
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	We ordered one, he gets it in a week. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks for all the help. teif

January 8, 2008, 06:24 PM	#17
XD45Sooner Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Posts: 248	You are the coolest older brother in the world man. Make sure he is safe with it and have a blast!

January 8, 2008, 06:39 PM	#18
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	thanks XD and Hornet, i try.... Well i thought I'd just drop this in here. After the range I dropped my brother off at our parents house and went to work. I spent most of the day in meetings and when I got back to my desk I saw that my mom and dad had called my desk and my cell like 20 times. My brother got home and told them all about his day at the range and how he was getting a brand new gun, ect... Well my parents flipped out. Even though the gun will be kept at my house, 35 miles away, and only used when he is with me, they still dont like the idea of him being around guns. I probably should have told them my intetions first but then i figured they would absolutly forbid him from going near a gun. for them its not a matter of them trusting me with him at the range, they only see the accpect of violence attributed to the gun, not the sport or disiplines it teaches. I think the best way for them to see is to actually take them to shoot and let them see him shoot. What do you guys think?

January 8, 2008, 07:52 PM	#19
Homerboy Junior member Join Date: June 16, 2004 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,320	I think you tried to do a nice thing, but you gotta respect your parents wishes. When my son is around 10, I plan to buy him a .22 rifle and teach him to shoot, but brothers aren't dads.

January 8, 2008, 09:28 PM	#21
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	The Ruger will be a gun he will use the rest of his life. I'm with the revolver bunch as the first gun though. BTW clear it with the parents.

January 8, 2008, 09:43 PM	#22
zippyfusenet Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Posts: 165	tiefmen, I'm sorry to say, you should have convinced your parents before you went down this road. You've shocked them and now they mistrust you. You've given a few clues about your family's background - perhaps your parents have lost friends and kin who picked up a gun at the wrong time. Perhaps they have their reasons for disarming. It sounds like your parents are afraid for you and your brother's lives. By dragging them to the target range and making them watch you and your brother shoot, you will confront them with what they fear. That isn't likely to change their minds. You must regain your parents' trust. A good start would be to apologize, to them for creating a conflict and to your brother for disappointing him. When things calm down, you can begin to talk, perhaps at first just with your father, to understand what he has experienced and why he thinks as he does. Once you do understand him, then you can see whether there's any possibility of changing his mind. __________________ You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

January 9, 2008, 01:14 AM	#23
Sgt.Fathead Junior member Join Date: March 3, 2007 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,637	I was under the assumption (Mother of all f-ups) that there was a sense of consent. This is a bad situation. Your folks are responsible to and liable for little brother. You'll need to straighten this out pronto! The Mk series are reliable performers. The Recon and Force Recon guys used them in The Corps, with minor work, for sentry removal and the like. Durable pieces, on my list. Good choice, though I'm still leaning towards that Bearcat. I'm not his pop either, though, eh? I take no one under 21 shooting without parental consent myself.

January 9, 2008, 01:38 AM	#24
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Sounds to me like a Ruger Bearcat would fill the bill nicely. Not only would it teach good fundamentals in a simple arm, it is small and innocuous looking (for the parents), and loads of fun to shoot. He'll never outgrow it. I quietly held onto our Bearcat when the kids "outgrew" it. The MKII pistols are a pain in the butt the first couple times to dis/re-assemble, but are easy and just another gun after that. I wouldn't get him the black plastic one. For the same reason he likes it, the parents will be more scared of it than a SA revolver...The image.

January 9, 2008, 12:50 PM	#25
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	first off, thank you all very much for the reply. Each was informative and helped us make a good choice. As for the way I went about the whole situation (behind my mom and dads back) let me clear somethings up adn give you guys alittle update. First, I'm 29 and my brother is 11, needless to say his parents are pretty old. And busy, my father is a prof. at hopkins and runs his one consulting company and my mom is a pre-school owner. Very busy, very old people. So naturally I have been comissioned with playing a large part in rearing the lad. They have a tendency to freak out first then see the clear pic. I knew if i had sat them down and tried to explain it to them they would have forbid it, banned him from guns and it would have been a bad scence. I spoke with my father last night and he said as long as the boy can turn it into something productive (compitention, ect..) he has no problem. Now they are intrested to see a gun range and the type of folks who shoot. So we are all going to the NRA next weekend. First the rangew then the muesum. All this worked out even better than I had planned. Once they see that a shooting range isnt a bunch of over-all clad hillbillies (not that theres anything wrong with that) and gangsta wannabies, they will feel allot better. So the little man is in the clear. I am a master of diplomacy. Worlds Greatest Big Bro and Future Worlds greatest father saying thanks again. Teif. Last edited by Shadi Khalil; January 9, 2008 at 02:38 PM.