defense gun on a budget - Page 2

wun_8_seven · October 8, 2002, 12:27 PM

thanks for all the replys and advice. the owner of the shop i work at part time sold me a ss ruger speed six with pacmeyer grips 4" barrel in about 85% condition for $200 & thru in 1 box of 158gr lrn 38's & 1 box 125 jhp 357's. i'm going to let my neighbor pay me half then half next check. gave him a extra pair of glasses and muffs that i didn't like. and we're off to my brother's farm this weekend if it doesn't rain. 187

chaim · October 8, 2002, 01:11 PM

Ohh, Ruger Speed Six. I want one.

Great choice, good deal, and it sounds like you're one heck of a friend.

9x45 · October 8, 2002, 10:11 PM

Well, at least you bought something that runs. Ruger Speed 6's and any S&W wheelgun will do.

Maks, Bersas, FEG's..... What, they can shoot over 100 rounds with only 16 malfunctions. And all the supportors have shot at least 50 rounds.

I see so many Maks NOT!!! in USPSA and IDPA, I think I'll give up my Glocks......What the heck is a Bersa anyway? And I know what a Browning HP is , but whats a FEG?

You pay what you get for. How much is your life worth? More than a Mak.

pbarrick · October 9, 2002, 09:39 AM

Get a used revolver. A lot of cops have dumped good revolvers on the market in their switch to semi-autos. I picked up a S&W Model 10--4-inch heavy barrel, fixed sights--for $185. A Wolff spring kit cost another $17, or so. Tyler-T grips, or other replacement grips, may run the price over the $200 mark but not by an amount that couldn't accomodate a modest budget.

Baron Holbach · October 9, 2002, 10:41 AM

For a personal defense semiautomatic, I would have chosen the Bersa .380. For a personal defense revolver, the Ruger .357 is an excellent choice.

kahrma · October 9, 2002, 02:24 PM

Here is a list of guns that I bought recently that all meet your friend's needs.

1. Ruger Speed Six SS 4" bbl .357 magnum $195.00

2. Ruger Speed Six blued 4" bbl .357 magnum $185.00

3. Ruger P89 blued 9mm $225.00

4. Ruger P95 SS 9mm $210.00

5. Charter Arms Off Duty SS .38 cal snub nose $200.00

6. S&W 59 nickel plated 9mm $250.00

7. CZ 70 .32 acp $70.00

All the above have been 100% reliable and none are much more than what your friend wants to spend. I would echo the idea of getting a .357 or a .38 revolver, they are rugged and reliable and right now there are some good deals on police trade-ins.

fignozzle · October 9, 2002, 02:39 PM

Kahrma,

My experience has been frustrating.

Where do you FIND such killer deals? Buy a whole collection at an auction/estate sale?

I go to Gun Dealers, they want MSRP or above, for even used guns.

I go to Gun Shows, thinking I'll find a "Jewel", and it's the same Gun Dealers, with NO discounts on the same guns they had in the store.

I check the online auctions like gunbroker.com and auction-arms.com, and it's mostly Gun Dealers, enhancing their walk-in sales with a few 'net offerings...

...and most of the WTS on this board seem to be Collector-priced pieces, or tricked-out IPSC/IDPA race guns for $1000 or higher...

I HAVEN'T hit estate sales or Pawn Shops yet...

Help me CRACK the freakin' CODE!

There....I feel better now....

kahrma · October 9, 2002, 04:11 PM

fignozzle,
I won the Ruger Speed Sixes on Auction Arms at the last second. The purchase price was really $170 (blued) and $175 (SS) but with shipping and FFL the total out the door was $380.00 for both. I think they call someone who waits until the last second to bid a "sniper". Most of the time it doesn't work but once in a while you get a deal. I was only interested in the SS Ruger but the blued one was just sitting there also so I placed my bid and won it too.

Mostly I just buy from friends or co-workers. They know I am always interested in buying guns so they come to me before they try to sell to anyone else. I try to keep enough cash in my account that I can snatch up a gun when the opertunity presents itself.

People will seek you out if they know you can pay them cash right away. I have tried to sell a few guns to people that want to make payments or just don't have the money and it is a pain in the ass!

I think the secret is, you have to know alot of people who own guns and they have to know you are interested in buying. Too often I found out too late that someone I knew, went to a gun store to sell his gun! I try to tell people not to do this as gunstores will always rip you of, coming and going. I try not to do much bussiness with gunstores for this reason. Luckly, I live in a state that allows individuals to buy and sell handguns to each other without any paperwork. I don't like to sell guns that are registered to me unless I know the person very well.

You would be surprised how many people will ask you to buy a gun once they find out you are in the market. Some people have had a gun for years but don't think about it until you mention that you are into guns.

kahrma · October 9, 2002, 04:19 PM

wun_8_seven,
You said the Ruger Speed Six was in 85%? My Speed Six had some light scratches and what looked like steam on the surface when I got it. By "steam" I mean what a window looks like when you breath on it.

I used my Dremel with a polishing wheel and some of that red buffing compound on it and it looks like new! It took me all weekend but it took out all those marks and now it looks like a million bucks! There is no way I would sell my speed six now! I would sell the ugly blued one but never the SS.

Eric Larsen · October 10, 2002, 06:49 AM

"Maks, Bersas, FEG's..... What, they can shoot over 100 rounds with only 16 malfunctions. And all the supportors have shot at least 50 rounds.

I see so many Maks NOT!!! in USPSA and IDPA, I think I'll give up my Glocks......What the heck is a Bersa anyway? And I know what a Browning HP is , but whats a FEG?"

Man...harsh words. Youre correct in a couple of ways. Im sure some who comment havent had lots of experience with these guns. Its also quite apparent that YOU havent shot or handled these guns enough to make a qualified comment either.

Ive personally ran thousands of rounds thru these guns. They have proven themselves to be as reliable and accurate as MOST s/autos. Ill bet that FEG has probably produced more HP clones than FN has produced HP's for Browning. The Bersa line has the Thunder 9, a Walther copy that is one of the best s/autos Ive shot.

Just a note...Glocks are good guns and I do like them. But you're bordering on sounding like an Elitist gun snob. Bummer.

Shoot well

pierrebazukhov · October 10, 2002, 09:41 PM

My number one recommendation would be a used Smith and Wesson Model 10. I've bought one for myself for $150, and my wife bought me one for my birthday that was $160. I usually see them around the $200 mark, but hardly ever more than $225. I suggest them because I have experience with them and like them. I've heard good things about Maks, but the ones I've seen were $200+ because the dealers were trying to hook people who don't know about milsurp distributors. I've owned a lot of Eastern European milsurps, and they work for the most part. So, based on that I would try one if I could find one around here. I've seen Bersas for $200, too, and think they might be worth a look. Prices are higher where I live, so anything else worth buying is at least $250-$300.

Lennyjoe · October 11, 2002, 01:37 AM

Geez, no one chimed in on a Bersa Thunder .380 for under $200.

Ben Shepherd · October 12, 2002, 09:00 AM

Yep. Good used 357 DA revolver.

Northwest Cajun · October 12, 2002, 09:52 PM

Went to a gun show last weekend and saw a "micro"compact .45acp made by LLama it had a wide grip 8-10 rounds. the price was like $225.00 I have only heard good things about them.
Cajun

Eric Larsen · October 12, 2002, 10:17 PM

Not knocking the little P/O copy that Llama makes but be quite leary of their reliability. At times thats saying is nicely. Some guns are good....most Ive heard of or have shot, really have had reliability problems of sorts.
Shoot well

Cee-Zed · October 13, 2002, 01:08 AM

Saying that Maks must be junk because no one uses them in formal competition shows a basic ignorance of the rules and nature of those organizations. It makes no real comment on their quality whatsoever. (I just don't think you can make major power factor with 9x18. Of course, that just shows they have no value as a defensive handgun, right?) Does anyone really think that the Russians would make a gun that cannot reliably kill a man?

FEG has made hundreds of thousands of guns since their inception almost 200 years ago. Of course, you have convinced me that they are ALL junk. Yep, every single one of them.

The Bersa Thunder is probably the most underrated gun on the market today. If that was what I had to spend, I would buy one, no question. (Unless I got a Makarov!)

I have a lot of experience with these guns. Not as much as Eric, but quite a bit. I would change the springs in all of them but the Bersa. There's your defensive handgun. Would a used K frame or Ruger be better? If you can find them at that price, get one if a cheaper, smaller semi-auto puts you off. I wouldn't care to be shot by any of them.

Eric, did you get my e-mail?

P.S. Yes, I meant a K-frame, not a J-frame. It is highly unlikely that you will ever find a used J-frame for $150.

Hal · October 13, 2002, 06:43 AM

Cee-Zed,
Your first paragraph pretty much sums up how I feel about the equipment race AKA:"competition shooting".

jar · October 13, 2002, 11:10 AM

Here are a few suggestions.

STAR UltraStar
STAR Model B or B Super
FM HiPower M-95
FEG PJK 9HP
ARCUS M-95
S&W M-19
Ruger Security-Six
Makarov
Bersa Thunder
S&W M&P or Model 10
Walther P-1
CZ M-52
FEG PA-63
Ballister Molina

For some other ideas Check Here

wun_8_seven · October 13, 2002, 12:23 PM

well ,we took the ruger out and shot it. i was kinda hoping he wouldn't like it so i could keep it, no such luck! this gun has a great trigger for a ruger. we set up clay birds at 7 , 12, & 25 yards and he was breakin them fast as he could pull the trigger. kahrma i tried your advice took some jewelers rouge and a buffing wheel on the dremel to the stainless finish and now it shines like a diamond in a goats A$$. 187

Cee-Zed · October 13, 2002, 03:57 PM

I agree with jar's list 100%, with one notable exception.

The CZ-52 can have some problems. You have to change the firing pin to be certain you have a reliable handgun. You probably do, but you can't be certain. The decocking lever can be useful as a "second trigger" on some guns. Ouch! The problem is you don't know until you try, then you have to put some time and money into the fixes. Great gun otherwise; it can handle the hottest 7.62x25 mil surp rounds available.

187, there's nothing quite like getting a good deal on a nice revolver. Keep looking around if you like revolvers. Great guns seem to pop up around hunting season.

Eric Larsen · October 13, 2002, 10:46 PM

Another note on the CZ52...great defensive gun if you happen to have say....3-6 BG's lined up in a row and only only one round left

.....very fast bullet and only around in FMJ's unless you reload. If you reload JHP's for this gun...good god! Fun Fun.....
Shoot well

Shoeless · October 14, 2002, 02:04 PM

I bought my East German Makarov in fall of 2001 for $175 and I haven't had one jam, one FTE, one FTF or any other malfunction yet. Until a few months ago, it was the only gun I shot in competition too, and I was doing just fine. (I shoot in a weekly ladies defensive match at our range -- not IDPA or IPSC)

As far as I know, the reason they don't shoot them for IDPA is because 9x18 won't meet the minimum power factor. (although, they do have a classification for backup guns, yes?)

Anyway, those who disparage the Mak have either not experienced one, perhaps got a lemon, or could just be a gun snob, IMO.

I am a small female and I have never had any trouble with handling the gun, in fact it's very accurate and comfortable to shoot, unlike the Bersa .380 that I have experienced. (ouch!)

I also like its size. Easy to conceal but still weighty enough to be easy to shoot, unlike some of those lightweight "ladies" guns. Super-ouch!

This is my two cents. I'd buy another Mak in a heartbeat.

Shoeless

October 14, 2002, 06:42 PM

Used stainless Smith or Ruger revolver.

geojap · October 15, 2002, 03:28 PM

It looks like you are set on a handgun and this may not be the place for it, but my first home defense firearm was a Mossberg 500 shotgun. It was $225, has an 18" barrel and hold like 8 or 9 shells. Used, you can buy them for as cheap as $125. I think that's a great home defense weapon. There is nothing more terrifying than a shotgun loaded with buckshot pointed at you.

Howto7 · October 15, 2002, 05:16 PM

If he is, and in summertime or a winter coat pocket, the 357 is going to be a concealment problem, for most people, in typical clothing. The snubbie 357's are uncontrolable with full powered loads, and the .38 snubs are smaller and lighter. If you are going to carry .38 ammo in your 357, why not have the handier gun, hmm? In winter, under a fastened coat, a belt or shoulder rig is a bit slow of access, so it's best to go with a gun that will conceal comfortably in a coat pocket, which can then be "palmed" discretely into one's front's pants pocket, when the coat must be taken off (and then vice versa) It's silly to put a $ amount on what your life is worth, but if the guy insists on paying only $200, about the only offering that fills the bill would be a used Keltec p11 9mm. For more like $600, he really should have a new Kahr polmer compact 9mm. The Makarov lacks the necessary power. Even the 9mm is certainly marginal, and the .32 is certainly no better than a .22, powerwise.

October 9, 2002, 09:39 AM	#29
pbarrick Member Join Date: September 19, 2002 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 72	Get a used revolver. A lot of cops have dumped good revolvers on the market in their switch to semi-autos. I picked up a S&W Model 10--4-inch heavy barrel, fixed sights--for $185. A Wolff spring kit cost another $17, or so. Tyler-T grips, or other replacement grips, may run the price over the $200 mark but not by an amount that couldn't accomodate a modest budget. __________________ Paul Barrick Instructor, OPS HQ Options for Personal Security Cutting Edge Training Across the U.S.A. http://www.optionsforpersonalsecurity.com Toll Free 1.877.636.4677

October 9, 2002, 10:41 AM	#30
Baron Holbach Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 238	Good choice on the used Ruger .357 For a personal defense semiautomatic, I would have chosen the Bersa .380. For a personal defense revolver, the Ruger .357 is an excellent choice.

October 9, 2002, 02:39 PM	#32
fignozzle Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2002 Location: under the radar, near the Sunsphere Posts: 177	but I GOTTA ask... Kahrma, My experience has been frustrating. Where do you FIND such killer deals? Buy a whole collection at an auction/estate sale? I go to Gun Dealers, they want MSRP or above, for even used guns. I go to Gun Shows, thinking I'll find a "Jewel", and it's the same Gun Dealers, with NO discounts on the same guns they had in the store. I check the online auctions like gunbroker.com and auction-arms.com, and it's mostly Gun Dealers, enhancing their walk-in sales with a few 'net offerings... ...and most of the WTS on this board seem to be Collector-priced pieces, or tricked-out IPSC/IDPA race guns for $1000 or higher... I HAVEN'T hit estate sales or Pawn Shops yet... Help me CRACK the freakin' CODE! There....I feel better now.... __________________ aka Felonious Monk on THR. Love People. Use Things. Do not confuse the two. Grey Tribesman

October 10, 2002, 06:49 AM	#35
Eric Larsen Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Bountiful....Ut. Posts: 3,226	"Maks, Bersas, FEG's..... What, they can shoot over 100 rounds with only 16 malfunctions. And all the supportors have shot at least 50 rounds. I see so many Maks NOT!!! in USPSA and IDPA, I think I'll give up my Glocks......What the heck is a Bersa anyway? And I know what a Browning HP is , but whats a FEG?" Man...harsh words. Youre correct in a couple of ways. Im sure some who comment havent had lots of experience with these guns. Its also quite apparent that YOU havent shot or handled these guns enough to make a qualified comment either. Ive personally ran thousands of rounds thru these guns. They have proven themselves to be as reliable and accurate as MOST s/autos. Ill bet that FEG has probably produced more HP clones than FN has produced HP's for Browning. The Bersa line has the Thunder 9, a Walther copy that is one of the best s/autos Ive shot. Just a note...Glocks are good guns and I do like them. But you're bordering on sounding like an Elitist gun snob. Bummer. Shoot well __________________ If they dont know you have a gun.....then I did alright! If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice......Rush

October 11, 2002, 01:37 AM	#37
Lennyjoe Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2001 Location: Southwest Ohio Posts: 1,150	Geez, no one chimed in on a Bersa Thunder .380 for under $200. __________________ If you see a Military man or a Vet, stop him and say "Thanks".

October 8, 2002, 12:27 PM	#26
wun_8_seven Senior Member Join Date: September 17, 2002 Posts: 195	thanks for all the replys and advice. the owner of the shop i work at part time sold me a ss ruger speed six with pacmeyer grips 4" barrel in about 85% condition for $200 & thru in 1 box of 158gr lrn 38's & 1 box 125 jhp 357's. i'm going to let my neighbor pay me half then half next check. gave him a extra pair of glasses and muffs that i didn't like. and we're off to my brother's farm this weekend if it doesn't rain. 187

October 8, 2002, 01:11 PM	#27
chaim Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,095	Ohh, Ruger Speed Six. I want one. Great choice, good deal, and it sounds like you're one heck of a friend.

October 8, 2002, 10:11 PM	#28
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Well, at least you bought something that runs. Ruger Speed 6's and any S&W wheelgun will do. Maks, Bersas, FEG's..... What, they can shoot over 100 rounds with only 16 malfunctions. And all the supportors have shot at least 50 rounds. I see so many Maks NOT!!! in USPSA and IDPA, I think I'll give up my Glocks......What the heck is a Bersa anyway? And I know what a Browning HP is , but whats a FEG? You pay what you get for. How much is your life worth? More than a Mak.

October 9, 2002, 02:24 PM	#31
kahrma Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: The jungle Posts: 369	Here is a list of guns that I bought recently that all meet your friend's needs. 1. Ruger Speed Six SS 4" bbl .357 magnum $195.00 2. Ruger Speed Six blued 4" bbl .357 magnum $185.00 3. Ruger P89 blued 9mm $225.00 4. Ruger P95 SS 9mm $210.00 5. Charter Arms Off Duty SS .38 cal snub nose $200.00 6. S&W 59 nickel plated 9mm $250.00 7. CZ 70 .32 acp $70.00 All the above have been 100% reliable and none are much more than what your friend wants to spend. I would echo the idea of getting a .357 or a .38 revolver, they are rugged and reliable and right now there are some good deals on police trade-ins.

October 9, 2002, 04:11 PM	#33
kahrma Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: The jungle Posts: 369	fignozzle, I won the Ruger Speed Sixes on Auction Arms at the last second. The purchase price was really $170 (blued) and $175 (SS) but with shipping and FFL the total out the door was $380.00 for both. I think they call someone who waits until the last second to bid a "sniper". Most of the time it doesn't work but once in a while you get a deal. I was only interested in the SS Ruger but the blued one was just sitting there also so I placed my bid and won it too. Mostly I just buy from friends or co-workers. They know I am always interested in buying guns so they come to me before they try to sell to anyone else. I try to keep enough cash in my account that I can snatch up a gun when the opertunity presents itself. People will seek you out if they know you can pay them cash right away. I have tried to sell a few guns to people that want to make payments or just don't have the money and it is a pain in the ass! I think the secret is, you have to know alot of people who own guns and they have to know you are interested in buying. Too often I found out too late that someone I knew, went to a gun store to sell his gun! I try to tell people not to do this as gunstores will always rip you of, coming and going. I try not to do much bussiness with gunstores for this reason. Luckly, I live in a state that allows individuals to buy and sell handguns to each other without any paperwork. I don't like to sell guns that are registered to me unless I know the person very well. You would be surprised how many people will ask you to buy a gun once they find out you are in the market. Some people have had a gun for years but don't think about it until you mention that you are into guns.

October 9, 2002, 04:19 PM	#34
kahrma Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: The jungle Posts: 369	wun_8_seven, You said the Ruger Speed Six was in 85%? My Speed Six had some light scratches and what looked like steam on the surface when I got it. By "steam" I mean what a window looks like when you breath on it. I used my Dremel with a polishing wheel and some of that red buffing compound on it and it looks like new! It took me all weekend but it took out all those marks and now it looks like a million bucks! There is no way I would sell my speed six now! I would sell the ugly blued one but never the SS.

October 10, 2002, 09:41 PM	#36
pierrebazukhov Junior Member Join Date: October 9, 2002 Posts: 7	My number one recommendation would be a used Smith and Wesson Model 10. I've bought one for myself for $150, and my wife bought me one for my birthday that was $160. I usually see them around the $200 mark, but hardly ever more than $225. I suggest them because I have experience with them and like them. I've heard good things about Maks, but the ones I've seen were $200+ because the dealers were trying to hook people who don't know about milsurp distributors. I've owned a lot of Eastern European milsurps, and they work for the most part. So, based on that I would try one if I could find one around here. I've seen Bersas for $200, too, and think they might be worth a look. Prices are higher where I live, so anything else worth buying is at least $250-$300.

October 12, 2002, 09:00 AM	#38
Ben Shepherd Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2001 Location: Utah Posts: 1,462	Yep. Good used 357 DA revolver. __________________ From my cold dead hands......... NRA certified rifle, pistol and shotgun instructor. Hunter education instructor

October 12, 2002, 09:52 PM	#39
Northwest Cajun Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 1999 Location: Spanaway Wa. &Lafayette La,(Cajun Country) Posts: 189	Went to a gun show last weekend and saw a "micro"compact .45acp made by LLama it had a wide grip 8-10 rounds. the price was like $225.00 I have only heard good things about them. Cajun __________________ Laizzes Les Bon Temps Rouler!

October 12, 2002, 10:17 PM	#40
Eric Larsen Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Bountiful....Ut. Posts: 3,226	Not knocking the little P/O copy that Llama makes but be quite leary of their reliability. At times thats saying is nicely. Some guns are good....most Ive heard of or have shot, really have had reliability problems of sorts. Shoot well __________________ If they dont know you have a gun.....then I did alright! If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice......Rush

October 13, 2002, 01:08 AM	#41
Cee-Zed Junior member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Posts: 481	Saying that Maks must be junk because no one uses them in formal competition shows a basic ignorance of the rules and nature of those organizations. It makes no real comment on their quality whatsoever. (I just don't think you can make major power factor with 9x18. Of course, that just shows they have no value as a defensive handgun, right?) Does anyone really think that the Russians would make a gun that cannot reliably kill a man? FEG has made hundreds of thousands of guns since their inception almost 200 years ago. Of course, you have convinced me that they are ALL junk. Yep, every single one of them. The Bersa Thunder is probably the most underrated gun on the market today. If that was what I had to spend, I would buy one, no question. (Unless I got a Makarov!) I have a lot of experience with these guns. Not as much as Eric, but quite a bit. I would change the springs in all of them but the Bersa. There's your defensive handgun. Would a used K frame or Ruger be better? If you can find them at that price, get one if a cheaper, smaller semi-auto puts you off. I wouldn't care to be shot by any of them. Eric, did you get my e-mail? P.S. Yes, I meant a K-frame, not a J-frame. It is highly unlikely that you will ever find a used J-frame for $150.

October 13, 2002, 06:43 AM	#42
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	Cee-Zed, Your first paragraph pretty much sums up how I feel about the equipment race AKA:"competition shooting".

October 13, 2002, 11:10 AM	#43
jar Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2001 Location: Deep South Texas Posts: 1,668	Here are a few suggestions. STAR UltraStar STAR Model B or B Super FM HiPower M-95 FEG PJK 9HP ARCUS M-95 S&W M-19 Ruger Security-Six Makarov Bersa Thunder S&W M&P or Model 10 Walther P-1 CZ M-52 FEG PA-63 Ballister Molina For some other ideas Check Here __________________ To be vintage it's gotta be older than me!

October 13, 2002, 12:23 PM	#44
wun_8_seven Senior Member Join Date: September 17, 2002 Posts: 195	well ,we took the ruger out and shot it. i was kinda hoping he wouldn't like it so i could keep it, no such luck! this gun has a great trigger for a ruger. we set up clay birds at 7 , 12, & 25 yards and he was breakin them fast as he could pull the trigger. kahrma i tried your advice took some jewelers rouge and a buffing wheel on the dremel to the stainless finish and now it shines like a diamond in a goats A$$. 187

October 13, 2002, 03:57 PM	#45
Cee-Zed Junior member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Posts: 481	I agree with jar's list 100%, with one notable exception. The CZ-52 can have some problems. You have to change the firing pin to be certain you have a reliable handgun. You probably do, but you can't be certain. The decocking lever can be useful as a "second trigger" on some guns. Ouch! The problem is you don't know until you try, then you have to put some time and money into the fixes. Great gun otherwise; it can handle the hottest 7.62x25 mil surp rounds available. 187, there's nothing quite like getting a good deal on a nice revolver. Keep looking around if you like revolvers. Great guns seem to pop up around hunting season.

October 13, 2002, 10:46 PM	#46
Eric Larsen Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Bountiful....Ut. Posts: 3,226	Another note on the CZ52...great defensive gun if you happen to have say....3-6 BG's lined up in a row and only only one round left .....very fast bullet and only around in FMJ's unless you reload. If you reload JHP's for this gun...good god! Fun Fun..... Shoot well __________________ If they dont know you have a gun.....then I did alright! If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice......Rush

October 14, 2002, 02:04 PM	#47
Shoeless Member Join Date: January 30, 2002 Location: USA Posts: 81	I bought my East German Makarov in fall of 2001 for $175 and I haven't had one jam, one FTE, one FTF or any other malfunction yet. Until a few months ago, it was the only gun I shot in competition too, and I was doing just fine. (I shoot in a weekly ladies defensive match at our range -- not IDPA or IPSC) As far as I know, the reason they don't shoot them for IDPA is because 9x18 won't meet the minimum power factor. (although, they do have a classification for backup guns, yes?) Anyway, those who disparage the Mak have either not experienced one, perhaps got a lemon, or could just be a gun snob, IMO. I am a small female and I have never had any trouble with handling the gun, in fact it's very accurate and comfortable to shoot, unlike the Bersa .380 that I have experienced. (ouch!) I also like its size. Easy to conceal but still weighty enough to be easy to shoot, unlike some of those lightweight "ladies" guns. Super-ouch! This is my two cents. I'd buy another Mak in a heartbeat. Shoeless __________________ NRA Member ~~~~~~~~~~~ "I declare to you that woman must not depend upon the protection of man, but must be taught to protect herself, and there I take my stand." - Susan B Anthony

October 14, 2002, 06:42 PM	#48
M58 Guest Posts: n/a	Used stainless Smith or Ruger revolver.

October 15, 2002, 03:28 PM	#49
geojap Member Join Date: June 13, 2002 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 45	Shotguns? It looks like you are set on a handgun and this may not be the place for it, but my first home defense firearm was a Mossberg 500 shotgun. It was $225, has an 18" barrel and hold like 8 or 9 shells. Used, you can buy them for as cheap as $125. I think that's a great home defense weapon. There is nothing more terrifying than a shotgun loaded with buckshot pointed at you.

October 15, 2002, 05:16 PM	#50
Howto7 Junior member Join Date: October 15, 2002 Posts: 13	Is he going to actually CARRY this gun? If he is, and in summertime or a winter coat pocket, the 357 is going to be a concealment problem, for most people, in typical clothing. The snubbie 357's are uncontrolable with full powered loads, and the .38 snubs are smaller and lighter. If you are going to carry .38 ammo in your 357, why not have the handier gun, hmm? In winter, under a fastened coat, a belt or shoulder rig is a bit slow of access, so it's best to go with a gun that will conceal comfortably in a coat pocket, which can then be "palmed" discretely into one's front's pants pocket, when the coat must be taken off (and then vice versa) It's silly to put a $ amount on what your life is worth, but if the guy insists on paying only $200, about the only offering that fills the bill would be a used Keltec p11 9mm. For more like $600, he really should have a new Kahr polmer compact 9mm. The Makarov lacks the necessary power. Even the 9mm is certainly marginal, and the .32 is certainly no better than a .22, powerwise.