Do you think that we are making a full circle in calibers?

Pops1085 · February 22, 2013, 03:16 AM

Okay so I've been obsessing over this a little bit and the conclusion that I have come to is that we are beginning to figure out that big and slow projectiles trump fast and small ones. I would just like to point out the resurgence of the 45 acp as an example. If you look at our rifles it seems like in theory the 5.56 is devistating when it fragments but since we are not allowed to use hollow points many hits do not result in a full energy dump. Hence the fact that so many people are getting excited about the 300 blackout round. I would also just like to post this video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg44jDOL8jo where he in advertantly demonstrates that a one ounce slug going slower dumps a heck of alot more energy into the block. I do understand that there are pellets also working but it does make you think a little bit. Anyways I'm just looking for a bit of a discussion here so feel free to let me have it.

HALL,AUSTIN · February 22, 2013, 08:22 AM

In handgun calibers I totally agree. But in rifle calibers I feel like there is now one for everyone. From .17 Rem to .950JDJ, some are wildcatters and some are mainstream.But there is a round for every role you could possible want a bullet to do.

Art Eatman · February 22, 2013, 10:04 AM

The majority uses of rifles in the US are hunting and plinking. No real need for fat and slow.

Mobuck · February 22, 2013, 10:11 AM

The "full circle" is the result of a continual rotation of the firearms and calibers with new being added constantly. Some stay in the rotation and some drop out but the standby cartridges hang on. For example I have a friend who comes to me for help with his Grandsons' firearms desires. They both started with a .223 singleshot that I sold him but now are looking at bigger calibers. One went with a 280 Rem a few years ago and now the second has selected the 30/06 for his "adult" rifle. Pretty much old school but still very useable and adequate for anything in the continental US.

SHR970 · February 22, 2013, 02:16 PM

In Handgun calibers? Full circle maybe....big and slow wins...not so much.

I submit the 32 ACP and 380 ACP for full circle. Due to the increase in CCW in the last decade both of these calibers have become very well represented again with another push for better performing ammunition.

New calibers? 40 S&W 357 Sig 327 Mag sort of all over the map here. If big and slow wins why has the 45 GAP died off so quickly? It's just a 45 ACP in a shorter package. 40 S&W is just a compromise between 9mm and 45 ACP but took hold because it was the darling of the FBI.

In rifle calibers? I don't see a huge resurgence in 35 Remington, 358 Winchester, et. al. These would be the big slow counterparts to 30-30, 308 Win. etc. The theory does not support the WSM, RSUM, or RUM lines of cartridges. By no means would any of these be described as "SLOW" for their calibers.

I see it more as some of the oldy moldies have been rediscovered due to a variety of factors such a SASS, CCW, etc. Other "new" cartridges have come around to fill a niche or perceived void, still others because some people dare to be different.

The nice thing is that we have lots of choices to fill our wants, desires, needs, and / or prejudices.

Meeteetse · February 22, 2013, 03:22 PM

My simple observation is that handgun use, especially CCW, has created an entirely new group of users who have limited skills. They want a low recoil, easily carried handgun that for some needs to be stylish. I also think the importance of a large, slower bullet (45acp) being the best has changed because of the improvement in ammo. I could never get my wife interested in CCW until some of the new small autos and revolvers hit the market. We both feel comfortable with her using a .380 or even a .32 of some sort because ammo has improved for both. I personally still like the big slow stuff.

I think rifles are a different story. Sales drive the industry and I think some of the calibers that have been developed are to insure strong sales of new rifles. All of us who enjoy rifles are prone to buying a new one because of some new style or a "must have" caliber that will work for coyotes to hippos. When all is said and done, most of the common calibers like the .270, .308 and 30/06 are still great all around calibers. Some of the new WSM and similar new calibers are good and have allowed manufacturers to build shorter actions, shorter barrels and compact packages. Are they really better than the old standards? I don't think so, but some do. As for me, I'll stick to my trusty ole' .308. Dinosaurs like old things. So I guess to answer the question, yes, in rifles I think we have come full circle and many are re-discovering the old standard calibers.

B.L.E. · February 22, 2013, 09:08 PM

I think a lot of people are rediscovering some of the classic cartridges of the past and new rifles are being chambered for them.
I love shooting my Ruger #1 in .22 Hornet. An afternoon at the range doesn't make me feel like I was in a saloon brawl and I still have most of my money left over when I go home.

allaroundhunter · February 22, 2013, 10:00 PM

Quote:

If you look at our rifles it seems like in theory the 5.56 is devistating when it fragments but since we are not allowed to use hollow points many hits do not result in a full energy dump.

I'm guessing that you are talking about the military here. If that is a correct assumption then I will let you know, our military is allowed to use hollow point ammunition; just not ammunition expressly designed to mushroom and cause a larger wound cavity. Snipers are using OTM (open tip match) ammunition, and many special forces units are issued 77 gr OTM ammo as well. I recently found out that some conventional forces occasionally get 77 gr OTM ammo (though that might not be as common).

zbones6 · February 23, 2013, 04:21 PM

Why would they develop bullets that do not expand, yet are also hollow point? I believe it was the Hauge Convention that made using expanding ammunition a war crime. The old .303 British rounds had the tip made out of aluminum that were designed to tumble effectively, perhaps the same thing is going on with the sniper ammo?

Dresden · February 23, 2013, 05:38 PM

My hunting guns run from 35 Whelen to 9.3x62, my fun guns are 416 Rigby and Ruger, my plinker is a 8x57. Big bullets with SD's that begin with 3 at moderate speeds kill effectively and quickly. I have no desire to own a small bore rifle like a 30 cal., but I would never say that there is no need for those types of guns.

Husqvarna · February 23, 2013, 06:08 PM

:re zbones I think it has something to do with stability in flight

B.L.E. · February 23, 2013, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zbones6

Why would they develop bullets that do not expand, yet are also hollow point? I believe it was the Hauge Convention that made using expanding ammunition a war crime. The old .303 British rounds had the tip made out of aluminum that were designed to tumble effectively, perhaps the same thing is going on with the sniper ammo?

Having the nose of the bullet hollow shifts the bullet's center of mass rearward. This causes a spin stabilized bullet to align with the direction of the head wind it meets more quickly. Also, a hollow nose bullet is easier to manufacture with a perfect base than a conventional hollow base bullet is and a perfect base is more important to accuracy than a perfect nose is.
It's why match ammo is designed this way, you don't need an expanding bullet to put a scoring hole on a paper target.

trg42wraglefragle · February 24, 2013, 06:21 AM

No its not a full circle, not in rifles anyway.
Even if everyone decides that 223/5.56 is crap and removes it from military use and goes to something else, its going to be 308 or 45/70 govt, its still going to be a smaller (6mm, 6.5mm), bullet with a higher velocity.

Long range shooters still using rounds that are doing 3000fps+, none are going back to 200gr 2500fps rounds.

And just because the military might get a bigger round than 223, doesn't mean it'll die for civilians. Civilians ARE allowed to use hollow/soft points so a 223 rifle will remain a nice light, low recoil lower noise hunting rifle.

jmr40 · February 24, 2013, 07:39 AM

We never signed the Hague Accords and are not bound by them. The US military prefers FMJ designs over HP partly because they feed more reliably, but mainly because they penetrate barriers and light armor much better.

The effectiveness a HP would have over FMJ would be minimal especially in rifle rounds. It is a trade off, but the military considers increased penetration through barriers more important. For military use I agree.

Civilian use is different. Shooting through a barrier is less of a concern. Putting someone down quicker with less need for multiple shots and not having a bullet overpenetrate is a major concern for civilian and LE use. HP bullets are the prefered bullet for this use.

I don't think of our calibers coming full circle. It is more like womens fashion. Styles come and go, then come back again.

PawPaw · February 24, 2013, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

but since we are not allowed to use hollow points many hits do not result in a full energy dump

Who's not allowed to use hollow points? In my rifle I can run anything I like. Personally, I'm no fan of the cartridge, preferring to use something bigger but I've got to admit that 40 years into it's development they've managed to turn it into something that works most of the time.

If you peruse my weapons locker, you'll see that I prefer .30 caliber long guns. There are several in there of various caliber designations, from .30-30 to .30-06. I know that the .300 Blackout was designed to run through the AR15, but for my purposes, I give it a resounding MEH. It seems to me to be another special purpose round that's destined for the ash heap. Sure, it's a fun little cartridge, and some folks are smitten with it, but I don't think it's going to last. However, I do give the designers credit for applying a set of design criteria to a specific problem. I simply think that the problem is so narrow that many of us won't find the utility of a purchase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zbones6

Why would they develop bullets that do not expand, yet are also hollow point?

Hollow point target bullets are designed that way to give the base a solid copper platform, the hollow point is a manufacturing artifact, the hollow cavity in front moves the center of gravity to the rear, take your choice.

Jack O'Conner · February 24, 2013, 08:44 AM

I've taken large bodied deer with both 35 Remington and .243 rifles. Yet size of wound channels were similar which explains why the animals dropped in their tracks. The widest wound channel I've ever observed was on an antelope hunt several years ago. One of the hunters in camp took a buck with his 220 Swift rifle. Inside of the animal looked like a grenade exploded within the chest cavity!

Jack

Hunter Customs · February 27, 2013, 09:30 AM

I can't speak for the shooting population in general but I've come full circle in calibers and rifles for deer hunting.

Years back as a younger man I used a Savage 99 in 300 Savage caliber to harvest my deer; it worked really well.
Being young and dumb I traded the Savage 99 off for a Remington 30-06, I thought I needed more killing power.

Well now I own two 99's one in 300 Savage the other in 250 Savage, both with iron sights and these are now my go to deer rifles.

Years ago I remember an older gentleman telling me "son if you live long enough you will find that you will go full circle", it looks like to me he may be right.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

sc928porsche · February 27, 2013, 10:32 AM

Making full circle? Which time?????

reynolds357 · February 27, 2013, 03:56 PM

I'm just going in circles.

I like everything from the .243Win to the .458 Lott. Anything bigger than the Lott has its use, but I have no use for it.

One day I drag the .30-30 to the deer stand and the next I drag out the 7Rum. The .257WBY always gets taken at least once a year. The .264 Win Mag and the 7WSM are my mainstays for deer hunting. Its not uncommon for me to hunt with 12 to 14 different rifles each deer season. Every once in a blue moon I drag out the Lapua, but I dont much care to lug it up the tower.

bamaranger · February 28, 2013, 05:56 AM

If the mag/capacity ban resurfaces, you will see an even larger resurgece of the .45 acp. When the first mag ban occurred, the 9mm's hi cap "advantage" was diffused. Suddenly 7or 8+1 of .45 acp didn't look so bad.

The .40 is still popular as well, but if this mag business passes, the 9mm will fade markedly.

stubbicatt · March 1, 2013, 12:07 AM

The faster we go the rounder we get....

February 22, 2013, 03:22 PM	#6
Meeteetse Member Join Date: January 1, 2012 Location: Wyoming - Texas Posts: 69	My simple observation is that handgun use, especially CCW, has created an entirely new group of users who have limited skills. They want a low recoil, easily carried handgun that for some needs to be stylish. I also think the importance of a large, slower bullet (45acp) being the best has changed because of the improvement in ammo. I could never get my wife interested in CCW until some of the new small autos and revolvers hit the market. We both feel comfortable with her using a .380 or even a .32 of some sort because ammo has improved for both. I personally still like the big slow stuff. I think rifles are a different story. Sales drive the industry and I think some of the calibers that have been developed are to insure strong sales of new rifles. All of us who enjoy rifles are prone to buying a new one because of some new style or a "must have" caliber that will work for coyotes to hippos. When all is said and done, most of the common calibers like the .270, .308 and 30/06 are still great all around calibers. Some of the new WSM and similar new calibers are good and have allowed manufacturers to build shorter actions, shorter barrels and compact packages. Are they really better than the old standards? I don't think so, but some do. As for me, I'll stick to my trusty ole' .308. Dinosaurs like old things. So I guess to answer the question, yes, in rifles I think we have come full circle and many are re-discovering the old standard calibers. __________________ All it takes for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

February 23, 2013, 05:38 PM	#10
Dresden Junior Member Join Date: February 18, 2013 Posts: 4	No need for fat and slow My hunting guns run from 35 Whelen to 9.3x62, my fun guns are 416 Rigby and Ruger, my plinker is a 8x57. Big bullets with SD's that begin with 3 at moderate speeds kill effectively and quickly. I have no desire to own a small bore rifle like a 30 cal., but I would never say that there is no need for those types of guns. Last edited by Dresden; February 23, 2013 at 06:20 PM.

February 24, 2013, 08:44 AM	#16
Jack O'Conner Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Manatee County, Florida Posts: 1,976	I've taken large bodied deer with both 35 Remington and .243 rifles. Yet size of wound channels were similar which explains why the animals dropped in their tracks. The widest wound channel I've ever observed was on an antelope hunt several years ago. One of the hunters in camp took a buck with his 220 Swift rifle. Inside of the animal looked like a grenade exploded within the chest cavity! Jack __________________ Fire up the grill! Deer hunting IS NOT catch and release.

February 27, 2013, 10:32 AM	#18
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	Making full circle? Which time????? __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

February 28, 2013, 05:56 AM	#20
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	ammo issue If the mag/capacity ban resurfaces, you will see an even larger resurgece of the .45 acp. When the first mag ban occurred, the 9mm's hi cap "advantage" was diffused. Suddenly 7or 8+1 of .45 acp didn't look so bad. The .40 is still popular as well, but if this mag business passes, the 9mm will fade markedly.

February 22, 2013, 03:16 AM	#1
Pops1085 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Posts: 369	Do you think that we are making a full circle in military calibers? Okay so I've been obsessing over this a little bit and the conclusion that I have come to is that we are beginning to figure out that big and slow projectiles trump fast and small ones. I would just like to point out the resurgence of the 45 acp as an example. If you look at our rifles it seems like in theory the 5.56 is devistating when it fragments but since we are not allowed to use hollow points many hits do not result in a full energy dump. Hence the fact that so many people are getting excited about the 300 blackout round. I would also just like to post this video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg44jDOL8jo where he in advertantly demonstrates that a one ounce slug going slower dumps a heck of alot more energy into the block. I do understand that there are pellets also working but it does make you think a little bit. Anyways I'm just looking for a bit of a discussion here so feel free to let me have it. Last edited by Pops1085; February 22, 2013 at 10:07 PM.

February 22, 2013, 08:22 AM	#2
HALL,AUSTIN Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2011 Location: asheville north carolina Posts: 556	In handgun calibers I totally agree. But in rifle calibers I feel like there is now one for everyone. From .17 Rem to .950JDJ, some are wildcatters and some are mainstream.But there is a round for every role you could possible want a bullet to do.

February 22, 2013, 10:04 AM	#3
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	The majority uses of rifles in the US are hunting and plinking. No real need for fat and slow.

February 22, 2013, 10:11 AM	#4
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	The "full circle" is the result of a continual rotation of the firearms and calibers with new being added constantly. Some stay in the rotation and some drop out but the standby cartridges hang on. For example I have a friend who comes to me for help with his Grandsons' firearms desires. They both started with a .223 singleshot that I sold him but now are looking at bigger calibers. One went with a 280 Rem a few years ago and now the second has selected the 30/06 for his "adult" rifle. Pretty much old school but still very useable and adequate for anything in the continental US.

February 22, 2013, 02:16 PM	#5
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	In Handgun calibers? Full circle maybe....big and slow wins...not so much. I submit the 32 ACP and 380 ACP for full circle. Due to the increase in CCW in the last decade both of these calibers have become very well represented again with another push for better performing ammunition. New calibers? 40 S&W 357 Sig 327 Mag sort of all over the map here. If big and slow wins why has the 45 GAP died off so quickly? It's just a 45 ACP in a shorter package. 40 S&W is just a compromise between 9mm and 45 ACP but took hold because it was the darling of the FBI. In rifle calibers? I don't see a huge resurgence in 35 Remington, 358 Winchester, et. al. These would be the big slow counterparts to 30-30, 308 Win. etc. The theory does not support the WSM, RSUM, or RUM lines of cartridges. By no means would any of these be described as "SLOW" for their calibers. I see it more as some of the oldy moldies have been rediscovered due to a variety of factors such a SASS, CCW, etc. Other "new" cartridges have come around to fill a niche or perceived void, still others because some people dare to be different. The nice thing is that we have lots of choices to fill our wants, desires, needs, and / or prejudices.

February 22, 2013, 09:08 PM	#7
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	I think a lot of people are rediscovering some of the classic cartridges of the past and new rifles are being chambered for them. I love shooting my Ruger #1 in .22 Hornet. An afternoon at the range doesn't make me feel like I was in a saloon brawl and I still have most of my money left over when I go home.

February 23, 2013, 04:21 PM	#9
zbones6 Member Join Date: December 29, 2011 Posts: 91	Why would they develop bullets that do not expand, yet are also hollow point? I believe it was the Hauge Convention that made using expanding ammunition a war crime. The old .303 British rounds had the tip made out of aluminum that were designed to tumble effectively, perhaps the same thing is going on with the sniper ammo?

February 23, 2013, 06:08 PM	#11
Husqvarna Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2012 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,000	:re zbones I think it has something to do with stability in flight

February 24, 2013, 06:21 AM	#13
trg42wraglefragle Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2008 Location: new zealand Posts: 856	No its not a full circle, not in rifles anyway. Even if everyone decides that 223/5.56 is crap and removes it from military use and goes to something else, its going to be 308 or 45/70 govt, its still going to be a smaller (6mm, 6.5mm), bullet with a higher velocity. Long range shooters still using rounds that are doing 3000fps+, none are going back to 200gr 2500fps rounds. And just because the military might get a bigger round than 223, doesn't mean it'll die for civilians. Civilians ARE allowed to use hollow/soft points so a 223 rifle will remain a nice light, low recoil lower noise hunting rifle.

February 24, 2013, 07:39 AM	#14
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	We never signed the Hague Accords and are not bound by them. The US military prefers FMJ designs over HP partly because they feed more reliably, but mainly because they penetrate barriers and light armor much better. The effectiveness a HP would have over FMJ would be minimal especially in rifle rounds. It is a trade off, but the military considers increased penetration through barriers more important. For military use I agree. Civilian use is different. Shooting through a barrier is less of a concern. Putting someone down quicker with less need for multiple shots and not having a bullet overpenetrate is a major concern for civilian and LE use. HP bullets are the prefered bullet for this use. I don't think of our calibers coming full circle. It is more like womens fashion. Styles come and go, then come back again.

February 27, 2013, 09:30 AM	#17
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	I can't speak for the shooting population in general but I've come full circle in calibers and rifles for deer hunting. Years back as a younger man I used a Savage 99 in 300 Savage caliber to harvest my deer; it worked really well. Being young and dumb I traded the Savage 99 off for a Remington 30-06, I thought I needed more killing power. Well now I own two 99's one in 300 Savage the other in 250 Savage, both with iron sights and these are now my go to deer rifles. Years ago I remember an older gentleman telling me "son if you live long enough you will find that you will go full circle", it looks like to me he may be right. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

February 27, 2013, 03:56 PM	#19
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I'm just going in circles. I like everything from the .243Win to the .458 Lott. Anything bigger than the Lott has its use, but I have no use for it. One day I drag the .30-30 to the deer stand and the next I drag out the 7Rum. The .257WBY always gets taken at least once a year. The .264 Win Mag and the 7WSM are my mainstays for deer hunting. Its not uncommon for me to hunt with 12 to 14 different rifles each deer season. Every once in a blue moon I drag out the Lapua, but I dont much care to lug it up the tower.

March 1, 2013, 12:07 AM	#21
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	The faster we go the rounder we get....